The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: dutch508 on December 09, 2018, 08:00:17 PM
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Star Member spanone (109,037 posts) https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211529727
If a 'president' cheats to win an election...he's not a legitimate president.
We would not tolerate this in any other country.
We should not tolerate it here.
Period.
(https://pmcvariety.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders.jpg?w=1000)
:lol:
Star Member BSdetect (5,258 posts)
1. Some other countries are not so crippled with an outdated Constitution
:thatsright:
Perseus (1,410 posts)
4. Start by getting rid of the "Electoral College"
That would be step #1.
The "opinion" that a sitting president cannot be indicted, although not in the constitution, reason why it is not a law, just an opinion, but that should become part of the constitution whereas if enough proof of wrongdoing by a sitting president, all tools within the law must be enforced, that includes indictment, incarceration, impeachment, and all punishment related to treason, if that were the case.
In case of a fraudulent win to the presidency, which is what we have today, the entire administration must be dismissed, and the "runner up" (Hillary Clinton in this scenario) should take hold of the presidency, and a new administration should be put in place. Why should Pence, for example, take over the presidency when he is part of the fraud? Even if he has done nothing wrong, which I doubt, he is still part of the "gang", per say, and should not be rewarded.
I think that would be a good start.
:thatsright:
Star Member MurrayDelph (3,238 posts)
31. The Republicans would never allow it
but instead of removing the Electoral College, we should reform it.
I've mentioned it here before, but my idea is to make it a double-proportional representation.
Instead of 538 Electoral votes, raise it to (for example) 10,000.
If a state (let's say, California) has 10% of the eligible voter population, they would get 10% of the Electoral College delegates (in this example 1,000 delegates total)
If a candidate in this California gets 65% of the votes, he/she would get 65% of that state's votes (In this example,
650 delegates).
This would mean:
It would be in the Red states interests to not disenfranchise voters, because it would reduce their number of delegates
If a Red state had more votes than voters, it would not affect country-wide totals
It would allow minority parties to actually have representation.
the exact reason the government was set up the way it is is to make sure this sort of shit never could happen...
Garrett78 (7,067 posts)
34. That would defeat the purpose of the electoral college, which is a vestige of slavery and...
...is intended to favor the smallest and most rural states.
The same goes for every state having 2 Senators.
I'm afraid this tyranny of the minority system isn't going anywhere anytime soon. That doesn't mean, though, that we shouldn't talk about these ideas. I think we should. That's how seeds get planted in the public consciousness.
Perseus (1,410 posts)
5. Impeachment is dangerous if Pence is not taken out
I believe that a Pence presidency would be worst in many way than that of the current, Pence is not a good guy but can convince a lot of people that he is not nuts, and that to me is more dangerous. Because of the lack of understanding of government trump has, I believe that the one pulling the strings today are Pence, Ryan and McConnell, trump is just a decoy.
Pence, with his "holier than thou" act can convince people that he is a good man, when in fact he has crap in his brain.
Make trump a lame duck now, campaign well to replace the senate and keep the congress, then make sure a democrat gets elected as president, then fix the country by reversing the tax bill, and other things these corrupt repubs have done, and prosecute all these crooks. You don't need to impeach the con to do all that.
AllyCat (10,656 posts)
11. And his executive orders, judicial appointments, and Cabinet are illegitimate too
usaf-vet (647 posts)
18. EITHER is his VICE PRESIDENT!!!
It was a ticket that Trump cheated to win. The ticket is illegitimate.
I go even further and say that EVERY presidential act from day one is null and void. Starting with the SCOTUS SEATS. Then the trillion dollar tax gift to the one percent. And so on and so on until the slate is clean of this unelected person. An in all likelihood this treasonous person.
I can already hear the whining from the right "their is no prescient for tossing them both out." But there is no prescient for a treasonous individual stealing an election.
We need to clean the slate and make the county, the democracy whole again. MDWA should be the new white hat.
When another DUmpmonkie says there was no known fraud in the electoral college...
usaf-vet (647 posts)
35. Boy are you ill informed. He stole the electoral college by the Russians interfering in
three states , Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. As a resident of Wisconsin I know first hand how corrupt the election system is in this state. Gerrymandering, voter suppression and election day dirty tricks (moving poll place, broken equipment etc.) to name a few.
Now add to that Russian interference via Facebook, Twitter and other funded misinformation advertising as well as a reported 1.5 million dollars paid to Walker for..... WHAT!
For further proof of how corrupt this state is just look at what the REPUBLICAN governor and legislators are doing in Wisconsin, and Michigan. They are using the lame duck sessions of the post election (losing elections) to change the rules to limit the power of the newly elected Democratic Governor Evers.
It appears the national plan of the republicans to KEEP power is to change the rules if they lose a election. So add NC to the three states above for further evidence of total corruption and a illegitimate president.
And that is all before the complete Mueller investigation is over and delivered.
:mental:
The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
20. You're damn right
So long as trump sits in that white house in reality the executive branch has zero authority. To follow it's directives is in my book an act of treason. So long as trump enjoys the support of the GOP, the GOP is and will be an entity in war with the rest of the nation. We are at the point where action is an imperative. Our country has already been dissolved, it's up to us to determine what comes next. This, as many people are waking up to the realization, is no longer a matter of elections.
sounds like a call to violence to me!
The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
26. I'm reading some of the comments on this thread
and I am again stunned by the number of people who say things like "..we can't do that because of the constitution" or "the constitution won't allow that". I laugh at this. Why? Simply, trump is illegitimate. He sits in the white house illegally. He does not enjoy the constitutional protection afforded a legitimately elected president. While he may have protections afforded an accused criminal, he does not have those afforded a president.
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 12:12 PM
Star Member Kaleva (20,653 posts)
37. How do you propose removing Trump from office then?
The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
38. I'll put it this way, since I'm tired of being labeled "kooky" and "extreme" by DU
If he is in the white house by fraud then the constitution does not apply. I'm not trying to be tedious. However, I have named ways to disrupt the system in legal ways on other threads. These ways will indeed take courage and sacrifice. The comfy life the majority of us Americans enjoy will be disrupted as a result and we will have to swallow much pain. To continue, however, in the illusion that trump is in the white house legitimately is a luxury we soon will no longer have.
Star Member Kaleva (20,653 posts)
40. Military overthrow?
The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
42. Not at all.
That won't work in my book. Not to mention one can not obtain power in any system with the backing of the military. This notion is as old as power itself. Violence and illegal action is unnecessary. We do, the people, hold another powerful key: money. The key to money is credit and debt. It's how money is created. This may sound oh so simple, because it is. Stop participating in the system. Stop using credit, stop being conspicuous consumers. If money is the root of their power, take away the root and their power will wither. I am in no way advocating violence or illegal activity. However, my solutions will crash the economy and yes many will feel pain. Perhaps it's easy for me to say this since for the past two years I've been preparing for exactly what I'm talking about. But it's this or be a slave. That's how I see it. I will not be a slave.
:stoner:
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 12:45 PM
Iggo (39,707 posts)
44. Wrong, Wrong, and Wrong.
"Simply, trump is illegitimate." Wrong.
"He sits in the white house illegally." Wrong.
"He does not enjoy the constitutional protection afforded a legitimately elected president." And Wrong.
https://transition.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2016/federalelections2016.pdf
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 12:50 PM
The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
46. You are entitled to believe what you like
if you think I'm wrong, then you can live in the world where you are right. I won't live in that world.
Good luck
:yawn:
The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
72. No, using ad hom attacks makes one a hater
And on that note, you have yet to "invalidate" my argument. I say the results of the electoral college are based on a fraud. That being said you are free to accept the results of a fraud. I will not. I say those who accept this fraud as "that's the way it has to be" are defeatist. This I will not be. But you are welcomed to be such if that is what you choose. You called my thinking magical, to which I am not offended because I regularly make my imagination into a reality that benefits me. However, your intent was to debase not through fact but through discrediting of a thinking process. Your attempt to do so then invalidated your position and in fact left mine intact.
... :thatsright:
I'm pretty sure LL is a 22 year old college student that is reading about poly-sci...
Star Member SWBTATTReg (4,261 posts)
55. And if he's not an legitimate president, as holders of the House of Representatives in the US, ...
we should not allocate any more money or lending authority to the US government until he steps down (by resigning).
shut down the government.
Codeine (20,694 posts)
61. I don't think people understand the follow-on effect
of deciding that extra-Constitutional solutions are the answer to a Constitutional issue.
Trump’s legitimacy is bestowed by the Electoral College. That’s pretty much the end of the argument. If we want him out we vote him out, convince the Congress to impeach and convict him, or - heaven forfend - watch him win another election and wait until he term limits out. Pretending there are other choices is fantasy.
The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
78. I'm perfectly clear on how the electoral college works
not that I don't appreciate the tutorial.
My point: he didn't win the popular vote in WI, MI, PA and also probably not in NC or FL.
That's where I stand. You are welcome to believe otherwise, however.
:lmao:
Star Member malaise (182,213 posts)
82. Lock him up
That simple
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Didn't we pretty much see, in Philadelphia this weekend, an example of just how much the military is in support of President Trump?
The 'cannon fodder' at the DUmp need to take notice.
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Star Member spanone (109,037 posts) https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211529727
If a 'president' cheats to win an election...he's not a legitimate president.
And in spite of all the cheating and unlawful acts by the clinton campaign and obama hilliary still lost and is not and never will be president. :bird: :loser:
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The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
72. No, using ad hom attacks makes one a hater
And on that note, you have yet to "invalidate" my argument. I say the results of the electoral college are based on a fraud. That being said you are free to accept the results of a fraud. I will not. I say those who accept this fraud as "that's the way it has to be" are defeatist. This I will not be. But you are welcomed to be such if that is what you choose. You called my thinking magical, to which I am not offended because I regularly make my imagination into a reality that benefits me. However, your intent was to debase not through fact but through discrediting of a thinking process. Your attempt to do so then invalidated your position and in fact left mine intact.
:o
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Star Member MurrayDelph (3,238 posts)
31. The Republicans would never allow it
but instead of removing the Electoral College, we should reform it.
I've mentioned it here before, but my idea is to make it a double-proportional representation.
Instead of 538 Electoral votes, raise it to (for example) 10,000.
If a state (let's say, California) has 10% of the eligible voter population, they would get 10% of the Electoral College delegates (in this example 1,000 delegates total)
If a candidate in this California gets 65% of the votes, he/she would get 65% of that state's votes (In this example,
650 delegates).
This would mean:
It would be in the Red states interests to not disenfranchise voters, because it would reduce their number of delegates
If a Red state had more votes than voters, it would not affect country-wide totals
It would allow minority parties to actually have representation.
Good idea, DUpipo. Instead of just upping the number and having to reinvent the wheel, let's make it even easier. The candidate who wins the popular vote in a House district wins 1 EC vote, the candidate who wins the state gets 2 more. To use your example of CA, each vote would count towards 3 total EC votes, same as someone in WY. Makes it more representative of the country as a whole. But that's not what you want, is it? You want elections to be decided in urban blight hellholes that are thoroughly corrupted with partisan workers and vote counters.
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They really don't get that the EC worked in 2016 exactly as intended. It prevented a few populous states from electing a President who would oppress and exploit the many less populous states.
Or do they get it, and want that oppression and exploitation?
Either way, the writers of the Constitution had DU-grade Progs figured out, some 2 centuries before they were born.
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The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
78. I'm perfectly clear on how the electoral college works
not that I don't appreciate the tutorial.
My point: he didn't win the popular vote in WI, MI, PA and also probably not in NC or FL.
That's where I stand. You are welcome to believe otherwise, however.
Winning the popular vote means getting the most votes in that state, right?
WI:
Trump....1,405,284
Clinton...1,382,536
MI:
Trump....2,279,543
Clinton...2,268,839
PA:
Trump....2,970,733
Clinton...2,926,441
NC and FL were the same, Trump got more votes.
TLL must be mole/troll. No DUmmie is that ignorant IRL.
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Star Member BSdetect (5,258 posts)
1. Some other countries are not so crippled with an outdated Constitution
the foundation for the DUmmie's belief system...
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I don't know why they beat around the bush instead of saying what they really mean. They want a system that guarantees only Democrats they approve of will win elections.
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I don't know why they beat around the bush instead of saying what they really mean. They want a system that guarantees only Democrats they approve of will win elections.
Jim Crow but for the 21st century.
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Star Member BSdetect (5,258 posts)
1. Some other countries are not so crippled with an outdated Constitution
Outdated? :rotf: It was written with tyrant-wannabes like DUpipo in mind! The Founders road-blocked DU-grade Proggies 2 centuries before the Proggies were born! :rotf:
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They are truly oblivious to the hypocrisy of some of the things they post aren't they?
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If a 'president' cheats to win an election...he's not a legitimate president.
Three words: John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
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TLL must be mole/troll. No DUmmie is that ignorant IRL.
You say that, and they go out and prove you wrong every day.
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Three words: John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
Now, now, most DUmmies would approve of that. Old Rum Runner Joe bought Daley's vote machine in Chi town and put it to good use to get his ne're do well son elected. So what, he made the ladies swoon and after all, Nixon had a five o clock shadow. Did Nixon really win? Maybe. Did he have a higher sense than to put the country through the pain of a long drawn out court battle. Yes. Did he resign for the same reason? Yes. Can the same be said of Slick Willie? NFW. (Slick, btw, did not win a majority, rather just a plurality). :popcorn:
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Three words: John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
I'd take JFK over Obama any day. At least I think Kennedy loved America.
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Sun Dec 9, 2018, 12:50 PM
The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
46. You are entitled to believe what you like
if you think I'm wrong, then you can live in the world where you are right. I won't live in that world.
Good luck
With that kind of opening LL must be a "Cheers" fan so I'll go with a line from Dr. Crane...Liberal Lion, what color is the sky in your world?
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I'd take JFK over Obama any day. At least I think Kennedy loved America.
I'll take JFK over any Democrat and more than a few Republicans.
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The Liberal Lion (740 posts)
38. I'll put it this way, since I'm tired of being labeled "kooky" and "extreme" by DU
If he is in the white house by fraud then the constitution does not apply. ...
When you're too kooky for DU ....... :mental: :stoner: :mental: :stoner: :mental:
Head case The Liberal Lion has been outvoted, by the only votes that matter, the Electoral College.
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I'd take JFK over Obama any day. At least I think Kennedy loved America.
JFK would be a moderate Republican today. Even the tiny "moderate" wing of the democrats is way to radically left for JFKs policies and positions.