The Conservative Cave
Current Events => General Discussion => Topic started by: SSG Snuggle Bunny on August 13, 2008, 10:30:09 PM
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Airlift 2008?
President Bush said Wednesday that the Pentagon had begun a “vigorous and ongoing†humanitarian mission to ease the suffering in Georgia, and that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would travel to France and then to Georgia to work for a settlement of the crisis…
Mr. Bush said that a transport plane with medical supplies was already on its way to Georgia, and that American air and naval forces would carry out the aid mission. And he said pointedly that Russia must not interfere with aid arriving in Georgia by air, land or water…
However, minutes after Mr. Bush’s comments, President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia characterized the import of the American aid as “definitely an American military presence†and called it a “turning point.â€â€¦
“What I expected specifically from America was to secure our airport and to secure our seaports,†he went on, concluding that the American presence would do so. “The main thing now is that the Georgian Tbilisi airport will be permanently under control.â€
Saakashvili is spinning hard to make this look like a U.S. cavalry charge, going so far as to call it a “military-humanitarian operation†and claiming that Georgian ports will now be under U.S. “control.†The Pentagon quickly denied it, although given Bush’s warning to Russia not to interfere with aid, things are going to get mighty dicey if they move on Tbilisi and take the airport. Charles Johnson says he’s hearing news reports that the Russian army’s within 15 miles of the city; I haven’t seen anything like that, although I did see earlier that Russia started moving towards the city before veering off in another direction. As of this morning, Russian troops occupied Gori and others were crossing into South Ossetia; Human Rights Watch claims they’re burning villages in the territory populated by ethnic Georgians.
My reaction to Bush’s announcement was the same as Ace’s (http://ace.mu.nu/archives/270612.php), and doubtless what Saakashvili has in mind: They’re going to insert a token American force, a la South Korea, as a “tripwire†that the Russians dare not cross lest it provoke a wider war. Per the emphasis on the mission being purely humanitarian, it sounds like Bush is eager to douse that speculation — but needless to say, if U.S. troops do get caught in the crossfire, it’s anyone’s guess what happens. If you believe the Times, the U.S. brought this all on itself by sending “mixed messages†to Saakashvili that don’t really sound all that mixed. Publicly the administration’s shown consistent solidarity, and privately they’ve made it abundantly clear that he shouldn’t do anything nutty like, er, invade South Ossetia. Assuming that’s true, he’s playing dumb, going on CNN this morning to say he appreciated McCain’s encouraging words yesterday but that words don’t mean much vis-a-vis those all-important deeds they’re counting on.
Well, he’s got some deeds now. Stand by for updates as the Cold War II brinksmanship escalates. Exit quotation: “We understand that this current Georgian leadership is a special project of the United States, but one day the United States will have to choose between defending its prestige over a virtual project or real partnership which requires joint action.â€
Update: This warrants the always rare double exit quotation. Sit back, close your eyes, and meditate on this while you run through your mental list of despots, terrorists, and assorted other cretins that Russia’s been selling weapons to for decades:
“Bush’s speech said nothing of how Georgia was armed all these years, including by the United States,†[Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov] said, adding, “We have more than once warned our partners that this is a dangerous game.â€
Update: Well, we’re now in a position where one or the other side is going to have to call the other’s bluff or lose face.
Just the position you want to be in with two superpowers armed to the teeth with nukes.
“This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it,†Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said. “Things have changed.â€
Update: Putin’s just taunting them now.
“Come with us, beauty, we’re going to Tbilisi!†one of the soldiers bellowed at a photographer in a sleeveless shirt along the road. Other troops grinned and brandished their weapons, and one hung his bare feet out the back of a truck. Another, a machine gunner riding atop an armored vehicle, wore a bandanna and a black T-shirt with the word “Russia†emblazoned in the red, blue and white colors of the national flag.
Asked from the side of the road, the soldiers shouted that their destination was Tbilisi — “With no detours,†one said. But then they veered abruptly into a field about an hour’s drive from the capital and camped conspicuously within sight of the road before the sun went down.
The message was hard to miss: The Russian military is still the landlord in swaths of Georgia, and its forces remain in easy striking distance of the country’s capital.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/08/13/showdown-bush-sends-humanitarian-aid-to-georgia-as-russians-advance/
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Yeah, partners. That's just what I want to be with a rabid bear.
I don't think the Russians realize just what kind of a hole they have put themselves in. They thought their little Georgia operation would go over and they would have the Sudetenl.....oop, I mean Ossetia along with the oil pipeline.
Now all those dogs the Sovie...oops, Russians (there I go again)....kicked around for so long are baring their teeth. Russia might handle Georgia. Russia can't handle Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and probably a few others though.
Not to mention, they won't be getting into the WTO or other such organizations anytime soon now.
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they left poti according to radio france, and Gori as well.
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I think the unintended consequence of this for Russia is that all the former republics and Pact nations which are not merely Russian satraps now will be driven into the arms of protective alliances with opposing great powers, rather than cowed into submission to the Russians.
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I think the unintended consequence of this for Russia is that all the former republics and Pact nations which are not merely Russian satraps now will be driven into the arms of protective alliances with opposing great powers, rather than cowed into submission to the Russians.
This puts us at a terrible crucible.
If we admit Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Ukraine and Republic of Georgia into NATO we put Russia on notice...
...BUT...
...it is exactly this "encroachment" of NATO that precipitated the current Russian aggression and we run the risk of NATO being obligated to war with Russia.
Certainly expelling Putin's regime from the WTO, G-8 and NATO conference are good, first steps. His bluff about aiding us vis-a-vis Iran's nuclear ambitions should be called and we should remind hism that Saakashvili is not Milosevic and Russian affronts to restive Grozny evaporate its moral high ground about how to deal with secessionists.
Bush's "Tsiblisi airlift" and ordering US ships into the Black Sea are strokes of genius I didn't think he had the stones to pull considering his lame-duck status and presumable war-weariness; but its hazards are evident and grave in the extreme.
We certainly need to remind ourselves that Russia has not, does not and will not share our conceptions of law, morality and the purpose of statehood (common defense and welfare vs. power and prestige) and they can be counted as friends only by the barest of definitions.
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I think the unintended consequence of this for Russia is that all the former republics and Pact nations which are not merely Russian satraps now will be driven into the arms of protective alliances with opposing great powers, rather than cowed into submission to the Russians.
This puts us at a terrible crucible.
If we admit Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Ukraine and Republic of Georgia into NATO we put Russia on notice...
...BUT...
...it is exactly this "encroachment" of NATO that precipitated the current Russian aggression and we run the risk of NATO being obligated to war with Russia.
The US is not actually the obstacle to admitting them, that friction is coming from our 'freedom-loving and courageous' allies in Old Europe. From the point of view of the new prospects, there is no better time than the present since Russia is not in a military or political position to do much about it now, but later their position will improve so the best thing for the former 'Republics" and satellites to do is to line up with an opposing, protective power sooner rather than later. The much-disputed ABM radar in the Czech Republic is a case in point, there is probably nothing that would make them want it more than Russia's recent aggressive behavior in Georgia, because prior to that Russia was making belligerent noises toward them in an effort to keep them from proceeding with it...now the Czechs have a far more immediate mission for it than giving early warning to other, more-westerly countries of a strike by Iranian or Pakistani missiles which don't yet exist.
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The US is not actually the obstacle to admitting them, that friction is coming from our 'freedom-loving and courageous' allies in Old Europe. From the point of view of the new prospects, there is no better time than the present since Russia is not in a military or political position to do much about it now, but later their position will improve so the best thing for the former 'Republics" and satellites to do is to line up with an opposing, protective power sooner rather than later. The much-disputed ABM radar in the Czech Republic is a case in point, there is probably nothing that would make them want it more than Russia's recent aggressive behavior in Georgia, because prior to that Russia was making belligerent noises toward them in an effort to keep them from proceeding with it...now the Czechs have a far more immediate mission for it than giving early warning to other, more-westerly countries of a strike by Iranian or Pakistani missiles which don't yet exist.
I'm reasonably sure the Euro-philes at Foggy Bottom are as much an obstacle as the triangulating, miso-Americanist allies across the pond.
To be sure those closest to Putin love us the most. Simply standing on principle will do wonders for our principles and the crippling of the idea of expansionist statism. Imagine 200,000 Georgian civilians standing in front of Russian tanks bolstered by NATO humanitarian airlifts. Condi made me very proud when she flat-out declared that the atrocities of 1968 are not free for the repeating.
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I think the unintended consequence of this for Russia is that all the former republics and Pact nations which are not merely Russian satraps now will be driven into the arms of protective alliances with opposing great powers, rather than cowed into submission to the Russians.
This puts us at a terrible crucible.
If we admit Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Ukraine and Republic of Georgia into NATO we put Russia on notice...
...BUT...
...it is exactly this "encroachment" of NATO that precipitated the current Russian aggression and we run the risk of NATO being obligated to war with Russia.
Certainly expelling Putin's regime from the WTO, G-8 and NATO conference are good, first steps. His bluff about aiding us vis-a-vis Iran's nuclear ambitions should be called and we should remind hism that Saakashvili is not Milosevic and Russian affronts to restive Grozny evaporate its moral high ground about how to deal with secessionists.
Bush's "Tsiblisi airlift" and ordering US ships into the Black Sea are strokes of genius I didn't think he had the stones to pull considering his lame-duck status and presumable war-weariness; but its hazards are evident and grave in the extreme.
We certainly need to remind ourselves that Russia has not, does not and will not share our conceptions of law, morality and the purpose of statehood (common defense and welfare vs. power and prestige) and they can be counted as friends only by the barest of definitions.
they can't be expelled from the G-8... I don't know why people keep saying that, when the Russians themselves will have to agree to be expelled in order for it to happen.
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they can't be expelled from the G-8... I don't know why people keep saying that, when the Russians themselves will have to agree to be expelled in order for it to happen.
The other 7 can quit the G-8 and reform it minus Russia quite easily.
All it takes it re-printing the letterhead and taking a set of dinner plates off the table.
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they can't be expelled from the G-8... I don't know why people keep saying that, when the Russians themselves will have to agree to be expelled in order for it to happen.
The other 7 can quit the G-8 and reform it minus Russia quite easily.
All it takes it re-printing the letterhead and taking a set of dinner plates off the table.
that is simply not going to happen.
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that is simply not going to happen.
Because of a lack of practical options or intestinal fortitude?
Near as I've seen Russia is not exactly a constructive member of the G-8 let alone the international community as a whole. To say Europe needs Russian gas/resources/industry ignores the flip-side that notes Russia needs European revenue. Europe has at least 2 other spheres of influence to shop at (the US and China would love to scoop up their business) but Russia is more vulnerable on the revenue front.
Still, should Russia be punished and how? I think in the long-term this escapade will have backfired on Puty-poot.
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that is simply not going to happen.
Because of a lack of practical options or intestinal fortitude?
Near as I've seen Russia is not exactly a constructive member of the G-8 let alone the international community as a whole. To say Europe needs Russian gas/resources/industry ignores the flip-side that notes Russia needs European revenue. Europe has at least 2 other spheres of influence to shop at (the US and China would love to scoop up their business) but Russia is more vulnerable on the revenue front.
Still, should Russia be punished and how? I think in the long-term this escapade will have backfired on Puty-poot.
Because Europe needs Russia more than Russia needs Europe. There is always another customer for oil. Where will Europe get that 40% that Russia supplies if they stop buying from them? I'm pretty sure the Chinese would love to get some Russian oil. Besides some rhetoric, we can't do anything to them. The truth of the matter is, we won't risk war for Georgia.
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Will we risk war exclusively for Georgia? Probably not but this isn't exclusively about Georgia and we're already risking war with our aid flights and naval deployments into the Black Sea.
US President George W. Bush assured leaders of Ukraine and Lithuania on Thursday that he remains fully committed to "a sovereign, free Georgia and its territorial integrity," the White House said.
In his conversations with Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus and Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, Bush stressed US "solidarity" with Georgia in its conflict with Russia, according to spokeswoman Dana Perino.
"All the leaders stressed the importance of standing by a sovereign, free Georgia and its territorial integrity, and agreed on the need for Russia to stop the violence, abide by the ceasefire and withdraw its forces," she said.
Perino had a brutally dismissive response to reports that Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the world can "forget about" Georgian sovereignty, describing it as meaningless "bluster" with no effect on US policy.
"Our position on Georgia's territorial integrity is not going to change, no matter what anybody says, and so I would consider that bluster coming from the foreign minister of Russia, and we will ignore it," she said.
[whoa! :o]
Perino also said it was too soon to be sure that Russia was abiding by its ceasefire agreement, but told reporters: "We do hope it's trending in the right direction."
She also warned Russia, whose forces have blockaded the town of Gori, that "we expect that our humanitarian aid would be allowed to get in by air, land or sea," but added that she did not know of any instances where it had been barred.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080814143153.wl4ine9y&show_article=1
But again we are left to wonder: if and how Russia should be punished. The poo-poo-isms are well known and worn; this claim of US/EU/NATO impotence is unfounded.
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Will we risk war exclusively for Georgia? Probably not but this isn't exclusively about Georgia and we're already risking war with our aid flights and naval deployments into the Black Sea.
US President George W. Bush assured leaders of Ukraine and Lithuania on Thursday that he remains fully committed to "a sovereign, free Georgia and its territorial integrity," the White House said.
In his conversations with Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus and Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, Bush stressed US "solidarity" with Georgia in its conflict with Russia, according to spokeswoman Dana Perino.
"All the leaders stressed the importance of standing by a sovereign, free Georgia and its territorial integrity, and agreed on the need for Russia to stop the violence, abide by the ceasefire and withdraw its forces," she said.
Perino had a brutally dismissive response to reports that Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the world can "forget about" Georgian sovereignty, describing it as meaningless "bluster" with no effect on US policy.
"Our position on Georgia's territorial integrity is not going to change, no matter what anybody says, and so I would consider that bluster coming from the foreign minister of Russia, and we will ignore it," she said.
[whoa! :o]
Perino also said it was too soon to be sure that Russia was abiding by its ceasefire agreement, but told reporters: "We do hope it's trending in the right direction."
She also warned Russia, whose forces have blockaded the town of Gori, that "we expect that our humanitarian aid would be allowed to get in by air, land or sea," but added that she did not know of any instances where it had been barred.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080814143153.wl4ine9y&show_article=1
But again we are left to wonder: if and how Russia should be punished. The poo-poo-isms are well known and worn; this claim of US/EU/NATO impotence is unfounded.
its not unfounded. Besides saying "shame on you" nothing will be done.
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You're a tremendous wealth of non-answers.
I've asked if Russia should be punished...you don't answer.
I've asked how Russia could be punished...you don't answer.
I've asked if it would be punished would it be due to a lack of practical means of intestinal fortitude...you don't answer.
All very direct and straightforward questions. If all you can muster in any given thread is, "No, not really" I can see how you can so easily be pegged as a Putin apologist although I think the truth lies closer to just be a limp-wristed contrarian.
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You're a tremendous wealth of non-answers.
I've asked if Russia should be punished...you don't answer.
I've asked how Russia could be punished...you don't answer.
I've asked if it would be punished would it be due to a lack of practical means of intestinal fortitude...you don't answer.
All very direct and straightforward questions. If all you can muster in any given thread is, "No, not really" I can see how you can so easily be pegged as a Putin apologist although I think the truth lies closer to just be a limp-wristed contrarian.
As you appear to have determined snugs, JM is our resident Russian apologist......one might deduce that he longs for the heady days of the old USSR.....
doc
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You're a tremendous wealth of non-answers.
I've asked if Russia should be punished...you don't answer.
I've asked how Russia could be punished...you don't answer.
I've asked if it would be punished would it be due to a lack of practical means of intestinal fortitude...you don't answer.
All very direct and straightforward questions. If all you can muster in any given thread is, "No, not really" I can see how you can so easily be pegged as a Putin apologist although I think the truth lies closer to just be a limp-wristed contrarian.
"Because Europe needs Russia more than Russia needs Europe. There is always another customer for oil. Where will Europe get that 40% that Russia supplies if they stop buying from them? I'm pretty sure the Chinese would love to get some Russian oil. Besides some rhetoric, we can't do anything to them. The truth of the matter is, we won't risk war for Georgia" What does that mean? Try to interpret it. Ok, that would just be a waste of time for you. Let me interpret it for you. Russia can only be "punished" by people saying "shame on you", nothing else. The Europeans don't have "intestinal fortitude" because they like Russian Oil. Whether or not they should be punished isn't clear yet, since the facts as to who started what are not yet set in stone.
is that good enough, or do I have to write it phonetically for you to understand?
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You're a tremendous wealth of non-answers.
I've asked if Russia should be punished...you don't answer.
I've asked how Russia could be punished...you don't answer.
I've asked if it would be punished would it be due to a lack of practical means of intestinal fortitude...you don't answer.
All very direct and straightforward questions. If all you can muster in any given thread is, "No, not really" I can see how you can so easily be pegged as a Putin apologist although I think the truth lies closer to just be a limp-wristed contrarian.
As you appear to have determined snugs, JM is our resident Russian apologist......one might deduce that he longs for the heady days of the old USSR.....
doc
In order to be a "Russian apologist", you have to be defending them. Please, tvdoc, show me where i have.
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Whether or not they should be punished isn't clear yet, since the facts as to who started what are not yet set in stone.
is that good enough, or do I have to write it phonetically for you to understand?
I would call an invasion of a sovereign state by military units of a neighboring state without the permission of the legitimate government to be an "act of war", regardless of the provocation,....
Do we need to point a rifle at your head for you to understand THAT?
doc
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Whether or not they should be punished isn't clear yet, since the facts as to who started what are not yet set in stone.
is that good enough, or do I have to write it phonetically for you to understand?
I would call an invasion of a sovereign state by military units of a neighboring state without the permission of the legitimate government to be an "act of war", regardless of the provocation,....
Do we need to point a rifle at your head for you to understand THAT?
doc
its alot more complicated then that.
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its alot more complicated then that.
No it is not......
Nuances are for apologists.......the simple fact is that the Russians invaded with armored combat units, and they need to have their collective butts kicked for that. If they have political issues with Georgia, they have other means of making their point.
This is more of Putin's saber-rattling, like his recent habit of sending his ancient "Bear" flights near US Naval assets. I think we should splash a couple, and that crap would stop. Embarass the hell out of them with the world watching....
If it wasn't for the fact that they are sitting on a large number of nuclear weapons that they can't afford to provide adequate security for, the world would place them in roughly the same category with France........"all hat, and no cattle".......
doc
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To say we are optionless is demonstrably untrue as we are using our military to confront Russia with a tripwire. Maybe NATO can't summon 300,000 troops and a trillion dollars to fight but Russia has been asked to consider how much it does want to risk a de facto war with the US/EU/NATO with our flights and navy rubbing up close to them. US rhetoric is far from capitulatory and only getting stronger if not downright undiplomatic.
As well it should...
Moral highground notwithstanding US security is pretty much guaranteed in the modern world, or only perceivable threats coming from latent powers that must first expand in order to be able to challenge us. Well, if they must first expand we do ourselves the favor of preventing those expansions.
Not to mention the fact that peaceable, consensual governments OUGHT to be defended as a matter of principle.
To say the EU and NATO would remain idle when prominent members such as Poland, Romania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and others not only fear Russia but have been threatened directly or otherwise ignores reality. They are vital members of their respective bodies and their concerns cannot be dismissed under pretenses of impotence real or imagined. No amount of appeasement, real-politicking or gutless isolationism is going to convince them to accept Russian tanks int heir streets ever again without a fight.
How about Turkey? Are they eager to see would-be imperialists on their border, threatening the Bosphorus and Dardenelles while pissing-off the organizations Turkey is or wishes to be a part of?
Oil can be bought elsewhere as--if not more--easily as it can be sold elsewhere. If the Reds wanna sell to the ChiComs may Allah bless their efforts to cut money out from under the little sheet-heads south of them. I hope they enjoy sailing tankers to the far side of the planet or piping it across the asian continent with all the logistical and security concerns that entails.
Furthermore, Russian efforts to draw legal/moral comparisons to the invasion of Iraq and the dismemberment of Serbia while pretending of Ahzerbijian and Chechnya never happened is laughable.
its alot more complicated then that.
It's only the dismissive contrarianisms that are simplistic.
This is more of Putin's saber-rattling, like his recent habit of sending his ancient "Bear" flights near US Naval assets. I think we should splash a couple, and that crap would stop. Embarass the hell out of them with the world watching....
I dunno about splashing but we can send a message without acts of war but it does seem those flights can no longer be simply dismissed as sleeping with one eye open.
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So the wind, reap the blowback:
By VANESSA GERA and MONIKA SCISLOWSKA, Associated Press Writers
26 minutes ago
WARSAW, Poland - Poland and the United States reached an agreement Thursday that will see a battery of American missiles established inside Poland, the prime minister said, announcing a plan that has infuriated Russia and raised the specter of an escalation of tension with the region's communist-era master.
The deal, which Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said was to be signed later Thursday in Warsaw by Poland and the United States, includes what he called a "mutual commitment" between the two nations — beyond that of NATO — to come to each other's assistance in case of danger.
That was an obvious reference to the force and ferocity with which Russia rolled into Georgia in recent days, taking the key city of Gori and apparently burning and destroying Georgian military outposts and airfields.
Tusk said that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization would be too slow in coming to Poland's defense if Poland were threatened and that the bloc would take "days, weeks to start that machinery."
"Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later — it is no good when assistance comes to dead people. Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of — knock on wood — any possible conflict," Tusk said.
"This is a step toward real security for Poland in the future," he added.
A U.S. official in Washington said "it looks as if we're near agreement, and we hope to make a joint announcement today." The official spoke on condition of anonymity ahead of a formal announcement.
Tusk, speaking in a televised interview from the capital, said the United States agreed to Polish proposals that it help augment its defenses in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors.
Tusk said that the U.S. met the key Polish demands "concerning the permanent presence of Patriots, missiles that will be able to effectively protect our territory."
"The Americans have accepted these postulates," he said on TVN24, an all-news channel.
The deal was reached after more than 18 months of back-and-forth, often terse, negotiations.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_eu/poland_us_missile_defense
Good job, Vlad the Inhaler.
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If we had only listened to General Patton.
Any idea what type of warships are going into the Black Sea??
I don't believe that Turkey is just goingto stand by kicking up dust and saying ahh shucks. The damn Russians barely missed hitting the pipeline.......................what the pipeline had to do with S.O......................... :mental: Actually it didn't have anything to do other than show their hand and their purpose.
The only NATO country.................I'm sorry, I think they left NATO, but require a seat and other verbage on equipment.............France, will do nothing................just like they did nothing about Iraq except try and succeed in making money from arm and oil sales with Iraq prior to us destroying the iraqi Army.
And saying we can't muster 300,000 troops to attack Russia is absurd. At one time conventionally the Russians were a fierce opponent........................today they aren't. They have no control over the seas........................we have as member of NATO and allies with their most advanced aircraft..............not a problem. If remembering correctly, they copied all of our weapons and platforms for the most part.
And with what MSB just posted..........................I will put faith in the Poles.............the ones I've met that are new here, 1st generation, second.......third......whatever are more patriotic and love America more than some DAMN Americans.
No Buffs or B2's would ever be sent into Russia if we were at war as that would escalate to where it shouldn't.
Enough........................Russia invaded a souverign country.......................... :bird:
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I'll put up another thing for consideration.
Georgia isn't helpless. Russia's energy and transportation grid (think oil pipelines, electrical transmission, lines, rail lines, and such) is all much too large to have any prayer of defending. Georgia could start using small teams to blow Russian infrastructure. In fact, they may be able to drop Russian oil deliveries to Europe substantially within two weeks. That would have Europe howling at Russia to get the out of Georgia.
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Because Europe needs Russia more than Russia needs Europe. There is always another customer for oil. Where will Europe get that 40% that Russia supplies if they stop buying from them? I'm pretty sure the Chinese would love to get some Russian oil. Besides some rhetoric, we can't do anything to them. The truth of the matter is, we won't risk war for Georgia.
I was wonderin' why the Euro-Gays haven't said much. 40 percent of their oil is a big reason to stay quiet for exactly the reasons John has stated.
But now that Poland has shown some guts I wonder how much oil they get from "Mother Russia"?
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I was wonderin' why the Euro-Gays haven't said much. 40 percent of their oil is a big reason to stay quiet for exactly the reasons John has stated.
But now that Poland has shown some guts I wonder how much oil they get from "Mother Russia"?
The Poles have some major stones and they don't mind smacking you with them.
In recent EU entry negotiations they told France they didn't give a @#$% what Germany thought about the policy of weighting parliamentary representation based on population because had it not been for German aggression in WW2 the Poles would not have lost half their population and would be better represented. WW2 had pretty much been the "No-Talk Zone" of EU politics but the Poles were of no mind to heel to such conventions.
I can only presume they would be all the more defiant in the face of possible Russian posturing considering its more recent and more imminent nature.
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Well since we already have American troops in Georgia I doubt that Putin wants to move to fast and find out that his troops screwed the pooch and killed some Americans. The radio on Neal Boortz had an interesting thing about getting the Ukraine to join NATO just to stick a finger in Putins eye and keep him at a distance. We might not be able to get Georgia to join up let alone defend itself against Russia but the Ukraine is something much different.
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So the wind, reap the blowback:
By VANESSA GERA and MONIKA SCISLOWSKA, Associated Press Writers
26 minutes ago
WARSAW, Poland - Poland and the United States reached an agreement Thursday that will see a battery of American missiles established inside Poland, the prime minister said, announcing a plan that has infuriated Russia and raised the specter of an escalation of tension with the region's communist-era master.
The deal, which Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said was to be signed later Thursday in Warsaw by Poland and the United States, includes what he called a "mutual commitment" between the two nations — beyond that of NATO — to come to each other's assistance in case of danger.
That was an obvious reference to the force and ferocity with which Russia rolled into Georgia in recent days, taking the key city of Gori and apparently burning and destroying Georgian military outposts and airfields.
Tusk said that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization would be too slow in coming to Poland's defense if Poland were threatened and that the bloc would take "days, weeks to start that machinery."
"Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later — it is no good when assistance comes to dead people. Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of — knock on wood — any possible conflict," Tusk said.
"This is a step toward real security for Poland in the future," he added.
A U.S. official in Washington said "it looks as if we're near agreement, and we hope to make a joint announcement today." The official spoke on condition of anonymity ahead of a formal announcement.
Tusk, speaking in a televised interview from the capital, said the United States agreed to Polish proposals that it help augment its defenses in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors.
Tusk said that the U.S. met the key Polish demands "concerning the permanent presence of Patriots, missiles that will be able to effectively protect our territory."
"The Americans have accepted these postulates," he said on TVN24, an all-news channel.
The deal was reached after more than 18 months of back-and-forth, often terse, negotiations.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_eu/poland_us_missile_defense
Good job, Vlad the Inhaler.
Told ya.
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I was wonderin' why the Euro-Gays haven't said much. 40 percent of their oil is a big reason to stay quiet for exactly the reasons John has stated.
But now that Poland has shown some guts I wonder how much oil they get from "Mother Russia"?
The Poles have some major stones and they don't mind smacking you with them.
In recent EU entry negotiations they told France they didn't give a @#$% what Germany thought about the policy of weighting parliamentary representation based on population because had it not been for German aggression in WW2 the Poles would not have lost half their population and would be better represented. WW2 had pretty much been the "No-Talk Zone" of EU politics but the Poles were of no mind to heel to such conventions.
I can only presume they would be all the more defiant in the face of possible Russian posturing considering its more recent and more imminent nature.
The Poles have not forgotten living under the soviet hammer, and are not likely to do so soon. The "unintended consequences" of Putin's move into Georgia, especially regarding the former soviet bloc countries will be fun to watch.
I think the fall-out for Russia is just beginning, and it couldn't happen to a better bunch of cretins.....
doc
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its alot more complicated then that.
No it is not......
Nuances are for apologists.......the simple fact is that the Russians invaded with armored combat units, and they need to have their collective butts kicked for that. If they have political issues with Georgia, they have other means of making their point.
This is more of Putin's saber-rattling, like his recent habit of sending his ancient "Bear" flights near US Naval assets. I think we should splash a couple, and that crap would stop. Embarass the hell out of them with the world watching....
If it wasn't for the fact that they are sitting on a large number of nuclear weapons that they can't afford to provide adequate security for, the world would place them in roughly the same category with France........"all hat, and no cattle".......
doc
you're right, its not like the georgians did anything provocative at all.
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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed crickets on the part of the left leaning liberals in regards to Russia's "unilateral" invasion of another country. After all Russia did act as an "invader" with express permission of the UN did it not? Where o where is the "outrage" from the liberal left? :confused: Where o where are the cries of "Russia is a bully"?
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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed crickets on the part of the left leaning liberals in regards to Russia's "unilateral" invasion of another country. After all Russia did act as an "invader" with express permission of the UN did it not? Where o where is the "outrage" from the liberal left? :confused: Where o where are the cries of "Russia is a bully"?
you didn't see obamas statement? the ceasefire was his idea, remember?
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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed crickets on the part of the left leaning liberals in regards to Russia's "unilateral" invasion of another country. After all Russia did act as an "invader" with express permission of the UN did it not? Where o where is the "outrage" from the liberal left? :confused: Where o where are the cries of "Russia is a bully"?
you didn't see obamas statement? the ceasefire was his idea, remember?
yes, Putin was kissing bama's ass and rolling toward Tibliski (sp) :rotf: that sweet talk goes a long way Brock!
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you're right, its not like the georgians did anything provocative at all.
Yes, how dare they try to join the EU and NATO over the trifling fabrication of supposed Russian aggression.
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you're right, its not like the georgians did anything provocative at all.
Yes, how dare they try to join the EU and NATO over the trifling fabrication of supposed Russian aggression.
I think the only mistake the Georgians made was forgetting.......as my grandpa used to say......."if you are going to poke a sleeping bear, you'd better be prepared to kill it........"
doc
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August 10, 2008: To no one's surprise, the Russians drove back a Georgian attempt to regain control of South Ossetia. There were several hundred military and civilian casualties. The fighting apparently began when some South Ossetia militiamen fired across the border at Georgian troops. This escalated to a Georgian invasion, and a Russian reinforcement of its peacekeepers, and the expulsion of the Georgian troops. All in the space of a week. The fighting continues, with Russian warplanes bombing civilians and military targets in Georgia and moving more troops into another breakaway Georgian region, Abkhazia. Georgia has asked for a ceasefire, but the Russians have not responded.
Since the early 1990s, Russia and Georgia have argued over who should control South Ossetia, a Georgian province on the Russian border. Just to the north of South Ossetia, is the Russian territory of North Ossetia. The Soviets often split ethnic groups between two provinces (or "Autonomous Republics") to make it more difficult for the people to unite in opposition to the Soviet Union. This, among many similar measures, worked. Since the Russians moved in their peacekeepers in the early 1990s, they have issued Russian passports to the South Ossetians and, in effect, annexed the region.
The Ossertians are a different ethnic group from the ethnic Georgians, as are the Abkhazians. This sort of ethnic mélange is common throughout the Caucasus. During the last years of the Soviet Union (1989-1991), ethnic tensions increased throughout the Soviet Union, as long dormant (and suppressed by a brutal police state) aspirations stirred once more. While the Soviet politicians pulled off an astonishing feat by dissolving the empire without bloodshed (and creating fourteen new countries from portions of the empire that decided not to stay with the new Russia), there were lots of smaller groups that still had separatist grievances. Two of these groups were in Georgia, and occupied the regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
The populations rebelled against the Georgian government and drove out Georgian officials, troops and ethnic Georgians. Thousands of ethnic Abkhazians and Ossetians fled to the new statelets. Since both of these areas were on the Russian border, Russia saw an opportunity to quiet things down (they did not want an ethnic based guerilla war going on along their border). So Russia offered its services as mediator and peacekeeper in the early 1990s, and peace was restored. The UN agreed all this, and a reluctant Georgia went along. But after that, the Russians refused to leave, or encourage the Abkhazians and Ossetians to work out a deal to become part of Georgia once more. Abkhazians and Ossetians wanted to be independent, and declared themselves so. No one else recognized this. In 2004, Georgia began cracking down on the smuggling and other criminal activity that was keeping the economy in South Ossetia going. This led to more and more gunfire along the border between Georgia and South Ossetia.
Two years ago, Georgia began a major expansion of its armed forces. Officially, the active forces were then about 26,000 troops, already up from about 12,000-14,000 just a couple few years before that. Unofficially, the government has raised strength to about 28,000. This was done by adding more professional troops and increasing the order-of-battle by two battalions of conscripts. The government goal is to increase the active force to about 35,000. In addition, Georgia began building a reserve force.
Until a few years ago the "reserves" constituted the entire body of conscripts discharged over the past 15 years. But this pool, of about 250,000 men, was just that, a pool. The "reservists" were not subject to periodic refresher training, and so no more than perhaps 10 percent of them could be considered useful in the event of activation. Beginning four years ago, Georgia instituted a more rigorous reserve training program. An active reserve has been created, which apparently numbers over 10,000 men, and is expected to grow to as many as 100,000 over the next few years, as conscripts (drafted at 18 to 18-24 months) leave active service, and enter 5-10 years of reserve duty.
While Georgia doesn't have the money for modern equipment (it's stuff is mostly Russian Cold War vintage), it does have enough professional soldiers from the old Red Army, and a military tradition going back centuries. Much to the discomfort of Russia, the United States has been supplying Georgia with military trainers and some equipment. Partly, this is in response to Georgian help in Iraq. Georgia first sent 800 peacekeepers to Iraq, and began increasing that force. Currently there are 2,000 Georgian troops in Iraq, where they obtain useful operational experience.
The principal reason for the military build-up is the secessionist regimes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The Georgians wanted the option of trying for a military solution. There are also some Russian troops, leftovers from Soviet Union era garrisons, still in the country. Georgia has been trying get all the Russian soldiers out since the Soviet Union collapsed (and Georgia became independent once more) in 1991. But the Russians have come up with a long string of excuses for delaying a final pullout. To make matters worse, several thousand of those troops are "peacekeepers" in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. To most Georgians, the Russian peacekeepers are there mainly to keep the rebel regions free of Georgian control.
It's not yet clear what the Georgian government was thinking when they allowed the border skirmishing to escalate to a military effort to restore government control over South Ossetia. It didn't work, as the Russians promptly counterattacked and drove the Georgian troops out of South Ossetia. The Georgians can try a guerilla war, and hope that their new relationship with the United States and the European Union will add some measure of protection. That's a false hope. The Russians have made it clear during the last few years that any real, or imagined, Western influence or interference in nations that border Russia (what the Russians call the "near-abroad") will be opposed with lots of noise, followed by some firepower. The recent events in Georgia are an example of that, an example the Russians hope the West takes seriously, even if the Georgians don't.
Russian politicians have been playing the nationalism card, catering to widespread feelings that the Soviet Union should be restored. Most Russians never cared for the communist dictatorship, but they did like being a superpower. The Russians also feel that those fourteen nations that split off when the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, left Russia surrounded by a lot of unstable and vulnerable nations. This sounds paternalistic and paranoid to Westerners, but not to Russians. And the Russians are willing to use force to back up these attitudes, as the Georgians just discovered. Russia still has nukes, and some Cold War attitudes that make for a potentially very dangerous situation.
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/russia/articles/20080810.aspx
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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed crickets on the part of the left leaning liberals in regards to Russia's "unilateral" invasion of another country. After all Russia did act as an "invader" with express permission of the UN did it not? Where o where is the "outrage" from the liberal left? :confused: Where o where are the cries of "Russia is a bully"?
you didn't see obamas statement? the ceasefire was his idea, remember?
Yeah three days after McCain said the same thing
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Far be it for me to defend JM but I think he was being facetious.
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The Russians can jump in a lake. Or, they can join the rest of the world, their choice and I don't care what they do.
The Russians wanted control of the Georgian pipeline and used the pretext of trouble they started to grab it. Draw whatever paralell you want. Hitler in the Sudetenland, the Romans in Greece, the Russians in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, Saddam in Kuwait, they all work.
If they are allowed to maintain control, they will assault the Ukraine next.
Right now they are nothing more than a bunch of criminals and should be treated the same way.
Ultimately it doesn't matter, the Russians average three abortions per live birth and something less than one child born to a Russian woman. The average Russian woman is over 40, meaning the rates won't change much. The Russians are as powerful right now as they will be in the next two centuries at least. If they thought this through, they would do everything possible to join the west, China will surely take Siberia if they don't. Not to mention all those people they pushed around might want revenge.
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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed crickets on the part of the left leaning liberals in regards to Russia's "unilateral" invasion of another country. After all Russia did act as an "invader" with express permission of the UN did it not? Where o where is the "outrage" from the liberal left? :confused: Where o where are the cries of "Russia is a bully"?
Their fierce hate is directed only towards the US...other countries get a pass.
Yes, these are the people who will be voting in November. If their silence alone doesn't send a red flag to the rest of us to get out there and vote in November...I don't know what will.
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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed crickets on the part of the left leaning liberals in regards to Russia's "unilateral" invasion of another country. After all Russia did act as an "invader" with express permission of the UN did it not? Where o where is the "outrage" from the liberal left? :confused: Where o where are the cries of "Russia is a bully"?
Their fierce hate is directed only towards the US...other countries get a pass.
Yes, these are the people who will be voting in November. If their silence alone doesn't send a red flag to the rest of us to get out there and vote in November...I don't know what will.
You two should see the monkey cage that is the Ron Paul forums.
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you're right, its not like the georgians did anything provocative at all.
Yes, how dare they try to join the EU and NATO over the trifling fabrication of supposed Russian aggression.
I think the only mistake the Georgians made was forgetting.......as my grandpa used to say......."if you are going to poke a sleeping bear, you'd better be prepared to kill it........"
doc
they tried. Their plan was to blow the Roki tunnel, which is basically the only way in to south ossetia from the north, then attack. The people that were supposed to blow the tunnel were caught, and were "persuaded" to tell the georgian army that it was blown. If that tunnel had been destroyed, there would have been no way for russian troops to get in.
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WASHINGTON -- President George W. Bush on Wednesday promised that U.S. naval forces would deliver humanitarian aid to war-torn Georgia before his administration had received approval from Turkey, which controls naval access to the Black Sea, or the Pentagon had planned a seaborne operation, U.S. officials said Thursday.
As of late Thursday, Ankara, a NATO ally, hadn’t cleared any U.S. naval vessels to steam to Georgia through the Bosporus and the Dardanelles, the narrow straits that connect the Mediterranean and the Black Seas, the officials said. Under the 1936 Montreaux Convention, countries must notify Turkey before sending warships through the straits.
Pentagon officials told McClatchy Newspapers that they were increasingly dubious that any U.S. Navy vessels would join the aid operation, in large part because the U.S.-based hospital ships likely to go, the USNS Comfort and the USNS Mercy, would take weeks to arrive.
“The president was writing checks to the Georgians without knowing what he had in the bank,†said a senior administration official
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080815/NEWS07/80814110
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update on the clearance issue:
Washington has made no formal request from Ankara to allow two US hospital ships to sail through the Turkish Straits to Georgia, a US diplomat said Saturday, following reports that Turkey was dragging its feet on making a decision.
"The United States is considering a lot of actions" to help Georgia amid its conflict with Russia over South Ossetia, the spokeswoman of the US embassy in Ankara, Kathy Schallow, told AFP.
"But as far as I know, we have not made a formal decision about sending those two ships," she said, adding that "a formal request" for their passage through the Dardanelles and Bosphorus straits was not made either.
Turkish foreign ministry officials were not available for comment.
General James Cartwright, vice chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Friday that Washington's plans called for sending two US Navy hospital ships to Georgia, among other assistance.
Unnamed US officials told McClatchy Newspapers that the two hospital ships likely to go -- the Comfort and the Mercy -- would take weeks to arrive and complained that Turkey was "sluggish and unresponsive" in granting them a permission to sail through the straits to the Black Sea.
Turkey's NTV news channel reported Saturday that the two ships' tonnage exceeded the limits set by the 1936 Montreux Convention, which governs international traffic through the Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080816152908.xe8987yi&show_article=1&catnum=0
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What are you talking about? The US has sent wwo US C-17 military aircraft carrying supplies. They are also using military planes to transport Georgians in Iraq back home. Implying we haven't helped because we haven't been able to get our navy vessels through is misleading.
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What are you talking about? The US has sent wwo US C-17 military aircraft carrying supplies. They are also using military planes to transport Georgians in Iraq back home. Implying we haven't helped because we haven't been able to get our navy vessels through is misleading.
Thats true. I just read about the issue of getting clearance and i posted the articles. It has nothing to do with the aircraft.
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The Mercy and Comfort are not warships.
Hmmm....................I wonder how many fast attacks could slip in there...........or maybe a SSGN.
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Via Free Republic:
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20080816/FOREIGN/689163001/-1/ART
"The Russian invasion of Georgia was not a spontaneous response to what Moscow called “genocide†in South Ossetia but had been planned in detail since April, according to Russia’s leading independent defence analyst.
The plans all but ensured that fighting would break out before the end of August, though the exact timing depended on how readily the Georgian government could be provoked into starting it, Pavel Felgenhauer states in a new analysis of the conflict.
It is generally agreed that the spark for the war was the Nato summit meeting in Bucharest in April at which Georgia was promised eventual membership of the western alliance, in the teeth of opposition from the Russians".
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they left poti according to radio france, and Gori as well.
Ummm...not so much.
Russian troops were deployed in large numbers west of Igoeti, in and around the strategic city of Gori, which endured an intense Russian bombardment during the fighting that began when Georgia attacked the breakaway region of South Ossetia.
Military vehicles on the side of the road were camouflaged with branches and a couple of soldiers slept on stretchers in the shade of the hulking machines.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405041,00.html
But go ahead...as usual...tell us what the Russians are doing is nothing to be concerned over. :whatever:
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they left poti according to radio france, and Gori as well.
Ummm...not so much.
Russian troops were deployed in large numbers west of Igoeti, in and around the strategic city of Gori, which endured an intense Russian bombardment during the fighting that began when Georgia attacked the breakaway region of South Ossetia.
Military vehicles on the side of the road were camouflaged with branches and a couple of soldiers slept on stretchers in the shade of the hulking machines.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405041,00.html
But go ahead...as usual...tell us what the Russians are doing is nothing to be concerned over. :whatever:
note that i cited a source. Also note that sources aren't always correct. Also note that i never said that you should or should not be concerned about anything.
Anyways, thank you for yet another useless post.
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Anyways, thank you for yet another useless post.
Quite the contrary...I corrected your factually inaccurate post.
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Anyways, thank you for yet another useless post.
Quite the contrary...I corrected your factually inaccurate post.
except I didn't make any claim, i said "according to..." not "it is with absolute certainty that I..."
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Looks like Putin has more trouble then he bargined for. The Ukraine is starting to take sides and its not on Putins side and they have nukes too.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/2570285/Ukraine-offers-satellite-defence-co-operation-with-Europe-and-US.html
Ukraine offers satellite defence co-operation with Europe and US
Ukraine inflamed mounting East-West tensions yesterday by offering up a Soviet-built satellite facility as part of the European missile defence system.
By Damien McElroy in Tbilisi
Last Updated: 11:24AM BST 17 Aug 2008
The proposal, made amid growing outrage among Russia's neighbours over its military campaign in Georgia, could see Ukraine added to Moscow's nuclear hitlist. A Russian general declared Poland a target for its arsenal after Warsaw signed a deal with Washington to host interceptor missiles for America's anti-nuclear shield.
The move came as the Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev, signed a cease-fire deal that sets the stage for a Russian troop withdrawal after more than a week of warfare with its neighbour Georgia.
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McClatchy: South Ossetian city Russians said was leveled still standing
Advertisements [?]South Ossetian city Russians said was leveled still standing
By Tom Lasseter | McClatchy Newspapers
TSKHINVALI, Georgia_ As Russian troops pounded through Georgia last week, the Kremlin and its allies repeatedly pointed to one justification above all others: The Georgian military had destroyed the city of Tskhinvali.
Russian politicians and their partners in Tskhinvali, the capital of the breakaway region South Ossetia, said that when Georgian forces tried to seize control of the city and the surrounding area, the physical damage was comparable to Stalingrad and the killings similar to the Holocaust.
But a trip to the city on Sunday, without official minders, revealed a very different picture. While it was clear there had been heavy fighting — missiles knocked holes in walls, and bombs tore away rooftops — almost all of the buildings seen in an afternoon driving around Tskhinvali were still standing.
Russian-backed leaders in South Ossetia have said that 2,100 people died in fighting in Tskhinvali and nearby villages. But a doctor at the city's main hospital, the only one open during the battles that began late on Aug. 7, said the facility recorded just 40 deaths.
The discrepancy between the numbers at Tskhinvali's main hospital and the rhetoric of Russian and South Ossetian leaders raises serious questions about the veracity of the Kremlin's version of events. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and other senior officials in Moscow have said the Georgians were guilty of "genocide," prompting their forces to push Georgia's military out of South Ossetia — in a barrage of bombing runs and tanks blasts — and march southeast toward the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, stopping only 25 miles away.
more...
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/48860.html
What a fekking shock this is... Russians lying through their badly dentured teeth.
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Dead silence from the resident Russian apologist and Soviet fluffer?
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Dead silence from the resident Russian apologist and Soviet fluffer?
i guess i wasn't the only one waiting for john to speak up
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Dead silence from the resident Russian apologist and Soviet fluffer?
ok, what do you want me to say?