The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: SSG Snuggle Bunny on April 24, 2016, 05:46:14 AM
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SHRED (13,527 posts)
Colorado is trying for Single-Payer
People are trying but the forces against us are big.
Like what Thom Hartmann says, "Health insurance corporations are nothing more than banksters".
Health Care Industry Moves Swiftly to Stop Colorado’s “Single Payer†Ballot Measure
The Council of Insurance Agents & Brokers, a national trade group, is mobilizing its member companies to defeat single payer in Colorado. “The council urges Coloradans to protect employer-provided insurance and oppose Proposition 69,â€
...
Profit-driven health care industries and professional medical societies have blocked cost-saving reforms for decades, and in recent years, spent tens of millions of dollars to shape the outcome of President Barack Obama’s Affordable Care Act. The health insurance industry in particular lobbied aggressively to shape public opinion and block proposals to expand single payer over the last decade.
https://theintercept.com/2016/04/22/colorad-single-payer/
think (9,136 posts)
4. Is it wrong for more people to get access to health care by cutting out profits?
Corporate666 (135 posts)
6. whose profits?
35% of health care costs are personnel (doctors, nurses)
35% is facility costs (hospitals, emergency rooms)
15% is drugs
10% is health insurance administration, overhead and profit
5% is everything else (physical therapy, ambulance services, etc)
Health insurance companies are being demonized, but the reality is that even if half of all the health insurance company costs were profit (the reality is that it's much less), you are looking at a 5% savings.
There is no way to get to a European level of health care costs without HUGE cuts to pay for doctors and nurses and other caregivers. Doctors and nurses earn 200% to 500% more than they do in Europe. It's something nobody talks about because politicians know it would be an unpopular argument to talk about how we need to give doctors and nurses a 50-75% pay cut, and reduce the number of X-Ray, CT, MRI and other diagnostic equipment, increase wait times, ration services and reduce standards of care. But that is the ONLY way to get to European health care costs. Period.
freeper troll
Admiral Loinpresser (3,795 posts)
9. Everybody except some Americans understand single-payer is cheaper per capita. n/t
All right thinking people agree with me...
...and wrong thinking people need reeducation therapy!
Corporate666 (135 posts)
10. explain to me
why it will be cheaper and how much cheaper it will be.
And everybody but Americans understand that when you have single payer health care, you also have much longer wait times for care, and you have to ration care. Those are just how it works.
Only fools believe single payer in the USA will mean we all have the same quality of care we have now, but it just won't cost anything.
Admiral Loinpresser (3,795 posts)
11. Profit margin is eliminated, but much bigger savings from elimination of red tape.
In all other major countries, bureaucracy is much smaller, because they don't have armies of paper shufflers like America does. Also single payer means Uncle Sam can drastically reduce drug prices, through massive bargaining power.
That is why we pay at least twice as much per capita as any other major country.
If you destroy the motivation to provide goods and services what will motivate people to provide goods and services?
Corporate666 (135 posts)
15. I'm sorry but you just don't know anything about this topic
So your claims are we can get to European health care costs through elimination of red tape and drug prices.
You're wrong.
Using the latest CDC data, less than 10% of health care costs are drugs. The profit margins of drug companies average 19%, so let's say we somehow passed a law making it illegal for drug companies to turn a profit. That's 19% of 10%, or 1.9%. So it would reduce $10,000 of annual health care spending by less than $200.
As for "red tape", the overall burden of insurance companies is less than 5% of all health care spending, whereas Medicare is around half that (although that number doesn't account for the fact that Medicare outsources many things, like billing, which don't get counted in the number). But let's say we can cut the administrative costs by half. That means 50% of 5%, or 2.5%. Which would be $250 out of the $10,000 annual health care spending for an individual.
In order to get to European levels of health care spending, you need to deal with hospital costs and doctor/nurse salaries. Hospitals earn around 2-5% profit margins, so the costs are not because of huge profits. The USA has over 6 times the number of MRI machines per capita compared to the UK, as an example.
Doctors and nurses in the USA earn a TON more money than anywhere else in the world. The average salary of a cardiologist in the USA is over $510k/year. In the UK, it is $135k a year.
Anyone who talks about how we can get to European level health care costs without having a plan to cut doctor and nurse salaries by 50-75% is lying or ignorant of what we actually spend money on for health care in this country.
In order to get to European health care cost levels, we have to get doctors and nurses pay reduced by 50-75%. We will have to ration care and have eligibility requirements for things like hip replacements, knee replacements, cataract surgeries and the other common things people get - just like they do in Europe. We will have to have much longer wait times for things like heart surgeries - moving from 3 days to 3 months, just like they do in the UK. And we will have to stop the high level of screening and preventative testing that we do for things like colon cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer and such.
Again, anyone who claims we can get anywhere close to European health care costs with single payer but who doesn't have an answer for the above is lying or ignorant on the subject.
So I ask again - how is Sanders going to get us anywhere close to European health care costs if his plans were implemented? What is the plan for doctor/nurse salaries? What level of reduction will he implement? How will he do it?
Talking about drug costs and red tape only gets you 5% of the way there. It's a pandering bullshit line that people like Bernie use to avoid talking about the reality of health care spending.
Admiral Loinpresser (3,795 posts)
16. I reject everything you say.
Your characterization of foreign health care systems does not correspond to anything reported by the users of the systems. Canadians pay much less per capita than we do and are very happy with their health care. Same in Scandinavia and throughout northern Europe. Same for New Zealand and Australia.
Everybody is covered and the wait times are generally comparable to the US. They pay a lot less than per capita.
Btw, if your figure of $510k per year is correct, that is part of the problem. Nobody needs to make that much money. This country needs a first world health care system, not rich doctors. Right now we have a third world system. Last time I checked, our health care system is ranked about 40th in the world. That is pathetic.
"Why won't people spend decades in school learning the most difficult sciences provide me with free shit? Because THEY'RE greedy!"
basselope (1,621 posts)
7. The big problem is one state can't do it.. unless MAYBE California.
The whole way single payer works is b/c you have a single negotiator who holds ALL the customers.
Colorado, on their own, doesn't have enough clout to force all the pharmaceutical companies, equipment manufacturers, etc.. to drop their prices and reduce profit. It is only when you have the buying power of 300 million people behind you that you can actually FORCE them to accept the prices you want.
The only state with the population large enough to even attempt this would be cali and even that would be tough.
cprise (8,353 posts)
14. Except that smaller countries have single payer, too.
The problem did not magically reconfigure itself to the size of the US population.
Having a single negotiator per state (and who knows, maybe states will team up in the future) is far better than the 5-10 private negotiators a state has under the ACA. There is also that *little* detail of conflict of interest... the investors want the parasitic levels of return that they are accustomed to in the rest of the economy; if they don't get it then the insurers will withdraw from markets deemed less profitable, resulting in people getting shuffled between insurers as the finance sector keeps gaming the system.
None of those countries are doing the research and manufacturing; they live off of everyone else's advances which are paid for with profits.
Subsistence levels of pricing buys you subsistence levels of productivity.
Sometimes less.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027775540
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Ok, which one of us is Corporate666?
Ya know, 8 years ago we (conservatives) told the liberals jugearscare would never work because costs would rise out of reach and the deductibles would be through the roof.
Why? Because with no requirement to sign up until you get sick meant no one would sign up for it unless they were sick. Who gets sick the most? Older people, like what I am. They are also the ones most likely to receive subsidies from those who aren't signed up and have to pay their "Shared Responsibility Payment" (the fine).
We were poo-poo'd because, liberals said, the young that sign up (but in reality aren't) would cover the cost for seniors. We were called racists and worse. Today, those same liberals that mocked us are now complaining their premiums are too expensive and the deductibles can't be paid. They've come to the realization, the same one WE came to 8 years ago, that jugearscare just isn't working.
NOW, the liberals are being told what WILL happen with single-payer and again they're poo-pooing the naysayers, because, I guess, THIS TIME it'll be done right. The first ones to complain they can't get a dr. appointment (because people will leave the profession or won't go into it because of low wages), will be the DUmmies.
They expect the quality of care will remain the same, which it won't.
Liberals disgust me.
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I like this corporate primitive. A tombstone is most assuredly in its future
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
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What an apt headline. And here we have a typical DUmmie response:
Response to SHRED (Original post)
Sat Apr 23, 2016, 02:30 AM
jeepers (283 posts)
8. If more citizens
in the different states began initiative petitions in their states demanding single payer which is what we did in Colo, we might have a movement on our hands.
Meanwhile, I'm gonna roll another one take a hit and wait for the rest of you to catch on and catch up.
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What an apt headline. And here we have a typical DUmmie response:
Yea. We can wait for the GoFundMe campaign to pay rent and utilities because this idiot would rather spend his/her money on pot, then get high and sit back and wait for his/her free sh*t.
Liberals disgust me.
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It is like the thread the other day about having a guaranteed income,the argument always boils down to "it`s free,I want it and someone else will pay for it".
To get the "free" healthcare they dream about even the useless mongrels of the DUmp will be paying a huge VAT or a sales tax on stuff.
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It is like the thread the other day about having a guaranteed income,the argument always boils down to "it`s free,I want it and someone else will pay for it".
To get the "free" healthcare they dream about even the useless mongrels of the DUmp will be paying a huge VAT or a sales tax on stuff.
They don't understand how expensive "free" will be and that THEY will be FORCED to participate in the funding, one way or another.
Right now, they firmly believe "free" will cost a little more, but that the rich will bear the brunt.
Silly fools.
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IIRC, Vermont tried this . . . and failed at it. :whistling:
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IIRC, Vermont tried this . . . and failed at it. :whistling:
Don't you know it'll work just fine if everybody in America had to pay in? Once that happens, it'll be rainbows and unicorns.
Vermont didn't have the population to support it, even though it would have benefited only Vermont.
They found out "free" was way too damned expensive.
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They keep running into the damned inconvenient fact that doctors, nurses, technicians, etc. have to be paid to do the work. (Disgusting work, too, especially if you have to touch a DUmmie, even with gloves). Although there are some over there who believe that doctors should work for free, otherwise his motives are not pure. Idiots.
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(Rear) Admiral Loinpresser is an idiot.
CMD
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Ok, which one of us is Corporate666?
I was thinking the same thing. :-) Only,
he/she forgot a rather large portion of HC costs: Liability Insurance. Everyone and everything related to HC carries it. The (D)Ullard comment about Government reducing red tape, is hilarious. Where do you think all that shit comes from in the first place, retards? :hammer: :hammer:
Admiral Loinpresser (3,795 posts)
11. Profit margin is eliminated, but much bigger savings from elimination of red tape.
In all other major countries, bureaucracy is much smaller, because they don't have armies of paper shufflers like America does. Also single payer means Uncle Sam can drastically reduce drug prices, through massive bargaining power.
That is why we pay at least twice as much per capita as any other major country.
:o :thatsright:
You will never convince the useful idiots of their stupidity. Never.
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IIRC, Vermont tried this . . . and failed at it. :whistling:
When the reality of the amount of taxation required hit home, even the hardcore Libs were shocked.
Well, ..... those that recognized reality.
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Europeans complain all the time about the state of their health care. There are long waits for basic referred services. Medical problems are triaged and rated based on expected out come and life expectancy of patent after successful treatment.
I understand that many in Europe have private insurance which can be used to circumvent the issues created by a public single payer system and thus you still have a multi-tiered medical system with those who cannot afford insurance, those who can and those wealthy enough to be able to pay cash.
Due to the tort system in the U.S. you can forget about a reduction in paper work and lowing costs by the elimination of unnecessary tests. I hear all this talk about insurance companies putting a stop to single pay but the lawyers who make a living off suing the doctors, hospitals and insurance companies will never allow this.
Liberals think that it is just a matter of snapping your fingers and magically installing a single payer healthcare system. Much like Obamacare, if they rush something through congress without putting a lot of thought in to it and listening closely to the nay-sayers then you will end up with something much worse than what you had to begin with.
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98Z, when I read that idiot say that red tape would be reduced under the gov't umbrella, I laughed out loud. What the hell are they thinking? Not one DUmmie called him on it, of course. Have they never tried to navigate a government anything? Of course they have, they are just unable to learn from experience. All they know is they want something FREEEEEEEEE!
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Hmmmm.
comment 3177:
http://conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=81827.3175
One wonders why nadin never covered this.
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Yes, I demand to know why Nadin didn't cover this crunchy news.
Whenever Frank gives a link to the secret bat cave, put on your HAZMAT gear.
I'm alone in an out of state house right now, but I'm still looking over my shoulder for Tess Anderson. :lmao:
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Yes, I demand to know why Nadin didn't cover this crunchy news.
The story's kind of ancient, but it is about Poway.
<<<never gave a damn about Poway until the cousin mentioned it.
<<<never had the slightest idea what "Poway" is, or was, until the cousin mentioned it.
And then when she mentioned it, she forgot to mention where it's at, as if everybody and his uncle knows where Poway's at.
It's as if franksolich had mentioned "Ainsworth," at the same time failing to give even a clue it's a city in Nebraska, instead expecting that everybody and his uncle knows what it is and where it's at.
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I've been there. Everybody thinks of Southern California as green and beautiful, always blooming in flowers. In fact, Poway is brown. The ground is brown, the air is brown. There wasn't a single memorable thing about Poway, except its brown-ness.
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When the reality of the amount of taxation required hit home, even the hardcore Libs were shocked.
Well, ..... those that recognized reality.
Yep. Dummies don't realize that Europe has way higher taxes than the US. And everybody pays them, not just the rich. Europe is in the shitter as far as economy goes.
Dummies do not understand that their poor asses will be the ones paying. VAT, gas tax, energy, you name it. Anytime you have a monopoly, the price always goes thru the roof. Single payer will be no exception.
Dummies ought to convert to Islam and Europe would welcome them as a refugee. Then they could see first hand how single payer works.
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Europeans complain all the time about the state of their health care. There are long waits for basic referred services. Medical problems are triaged and rated based on expected out come and life expectancy of patent after successful treatment.
I understand that many in Europe have private insurance which can be used to circumvent the issues created by a public single payer system and thus you still have a multi-tiered medical system with those who cannot afford insurance, those who can and those wealthy enough to be able to pay cash.
Due to the tort system in the U.S. you can forget about a reduction in paper work and lowing costs by the elimination of unnecessary tests. I hear all this talk about insurance companies putting a stop to single pay but the lawyers who make a living off suing the doctors, hospitals and insurance companies will never allow this.
Liberals think that it is just a matter of snapping your fingers and magically installing a single payer healthcare system. Much like Obamacare, if they rush something through congress without putting a lot of thought in to it and listening closely to the nay-sayers then you will end up with something much worse than what you had to begin with.
*ding!* *ding!* *ding!* :hi5:
All the infants see is the word "free"- used in the most specious way possible- and nothing else sinks in.
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98Z, when I read that idiot say that red tape would be reduced under the gov't umbrella, I laughed out loud. What the hell are they thinking? Not one DUmmie called him on it, of course. Have they never tried to navigate a government anything? Of course they have, they are just unable to learn from experience. All they know is they want something FREEEEEEEEE!
I spit beer all over the can. :-) The disconnect with reality and the utter and complete lack of understanding of the bureaucratic process is shattering. All information, contrary to their "first grade fingerpainting" view of the world, is vaporized into butterscotch butterfly dreams.
Listen, lurking idiots, EVERYTHING the goobermint touches increases the paper load by a multiple of 3, absolute MINIMUM. Bureaucracy reduced? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL............... How? It would triple overnight.
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I've been there. Everybody thinks of Southern California as green and beautiful, always blooming in flowers. In fact, Poway is brown. The ground is brown, the air is brown. There wasn't a single memorable thing about Poway, except its brown-ness.
:o Please let your friends who think SoCal is green, etc. know that SoCal south of Bakersfield is mostly desert. :o Except for gardens and farms, most of CA is brown roughly April through November (or whenever the rains come). For more or less year-round green you have to go to the coastal forest areas of the central and north coast (including parts of the East SF Bay).
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IIRC, Vermont tried this . . . and failed at it. :whistling:
Hawaii tried something like this also and failed also.
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SHRED (13,527 posts)
Colorado is trying for Single-Payer
People are trying but the forces against us are big.
Like what Thom Hartmann says, "Health insurance corporations are nothing more than banksters".
Code for JooooooOOOOoooooossssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I've been there. Everybody thinks of Southern California as green and beautiful, always blooming in flowers. In fact, Poway is brown. The ground is brown, the air is brown. There wasn't a single memorable thing about Poway, except its brown-ness.
I didn't think about it until you mentioned it; the kpete primitive's yard of her Streisandian digs in that private country club neighborhood in San Diego. Despite that she's got all these illegal aliens taking care of such menial stuff for her, her yard looks like a desert.
Some might actually like that Southwestern Desert look, but I, personally, think it sucks. The ground's meant to be green and verdant, full of thriving, living things, not dead rocks.
If one likes that look, well, okay, to each his own, but I don't see anything "nice" about it at all, and if I had the kpete primitive's husband's money, I'd make the illegal alien gardeners lay it all out with lush green grass.
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frank, that part of SoCal is pretty dry. They probably get much of their water from the Colorado River and/or the Sacramento-San Joaquin River system. The desert style of landscaping may be less appealing, but it is practical. I got used to seeing it while living in the Phoenix, AZ area in the 70s (not everyone did it, but some did).
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Admiral Loinpresser (3,795 posts)
16. I reject everything you say.
Btw, if your figure of $510k per year is correct, that is part of the problem. Nobody needs to make that much money. This country needs a first world health care system, not rich doctors. Right now we have a third world system. Last time I checked, our health care system is ranked about 40th in the world. That is pathetic.
Pssst! Hey, DUmbass, I have something I want to show you:
Junior doctors are deadlocked with Jeremy Hunt over his plan to force through ("impose") new contracts as part of his "7-day NHS".
The Health Secretary says the only major outstanding issue is premium Saturday pay. Under the contract, from 7am to 5pm on Saturday won't attract any out-of-hours pay.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/what-time-junior-doctors-strike-7834312
1st world, broke doctors doing it for the masses! :lmao: