The Conservative Cave
Current Events => Economics => Topic started by: djones520 on July 14, 2008, 08:00:29 PM
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Economics isn't my strong point, but initially this jumps out at me as a bad idea.
What have you guys got to say about it?
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Economics isn't my strong point, but initially this jumps out at me as a bad idea.
What have you guys got to say about it?
It's ****ing awesome. What else ya need? :-)
Tell ya what, I'll send you the Fairtax Book, by the awesome Neal Boortz, if you want.
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Economics isn't my strong point, but initially this jumps out at me as a bad idea.
What have you guys got to say about it?
It's ****ing awesome. What else ya need? :-)
Tell ya what, I'll send you the Fairtax Book, by the awesome Neal Boortz, if you want.
Yeah, I've been looking for something to help put me to sleep.
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Economics isn't my strong point, but initially this jumps out at me as a bad idea.
What have you guys got to say about it?
It's ****ing awesome. What else ya need? :-)
Tell ya what, I'll send you the Fairtax Book, by the awesome Neal Boortz, if you want.
Yeah, I've been looking for something to help put me to sleep.
Be punished for your frugality -- yeah, works for me.
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Yeah, I've been looking for something to help put me to sleep.
Books ALWAYS put me to sleep. This book, however, will not. Kinda hard to go to sleep when you're reading about a plan that'll allow you to keep ALL of your earnings.
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Yeah, I've been looking for something to help put me to sleep.
Books ALWAYS put me to sleep. This book, however, will not. Kinda hard to go to sleep when you're reading about a plan that'll allow you to keep ALL of your earnings.
But at the same time, jack the prices of EVERYTHING you ever buy up by 23-30%. Is that really going to level out?
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I bet AAFES is giddy as can be over the prospect of this going through. Or will they be required to institute the policy as well?
If not, I can tell you I'd never shop anywhere else again.
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I bet AAFES is giddy as can be over the prospect of this going through. Or will they be required to institute the policy as well?
If not, I can tell you I'd never shop anywhere else again.
You lost me.
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I bet AAFES is giddy as can be over the prospect of this going through. Or will they be required to institute the policy as well?
If not, I can tell you I'd never shop anywhere else again.
You lost me.
Army Air Force Exchange Service
We don't pay any sales taxes through it. If that holds, you'll see an even bigger influx of people pushing to use them, since places like Walmart will now be more expensive.
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I bet AAFES is giddy as can be over the prospect of this going through. Or will they be required to institute the policy as well?
If not, I can tell you I'd never shop anywhere else again.
You lost me.
Army Air Force Exchange Service
We don't pay any sales taxes through it. If that holds, you'll see an even bigger influx of people pushing to use them, since places like Walmart will now be more expensive.
Wow -- good point. I have 2 retired BILs (Navy) who have base access -- I see black market opportunities.... ;)
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But at the same time, jack the prices of EVERYTHING you ever buy up by 23-30%. Is that really going to level out?
Wrong. There's a 21% embedded tax on any new good you purchase. Since corporations won't have to pay taxes, to remain competitive, they'll remove those costs. The ONLY entity that will pay federal taxes in the country will be the individual....who pays them all anyway, in one way or another. You will wind up paying about the same thing for your goods. Why? Because instead of having a tax-base of about 50 on a scale of 100, you'll have 100. Buy the book.
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Army Air Force Exchange Service
We don't pay any sales taxes through it. If that holds, you'll see an even bigger influx of people pushing to use them, since places like Walmart will now be more expensive.
In that case, the goods you purchase will be 21% cheaper than they are now.
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There's supposed to be a one-year period between the removal of the income tax and the implementation of the Fair Tax. It's supposed to give employers time to change their payroll systems and all that jazz.
It's not a huge book. I read it in a weekend.
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I have heard that Boortz does a good job in explaining the fair tax.
But let's face it... The fed will never willingly give up the individual income tax. It gives them too much power for them to turn away from.
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I bet AAFES is giddy as can be over the prospect of this going through. Or will they be required to institute the policy as well?
If not, I can tell you I'd never shop anywhere else again.
You lost me.
Army Air Force Exchange Service
We don't pay any sales taxes through it. If that holds, you'll see an even bigger influx of people pushing to use them, since places like Walmart will now be more expensive.
you may not pay state or local sales taxes but you are paying many other taxes incurred along the way of that product's life. read the book or just go to the website fairtax.org and prepare to be shocked.
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I have heard that Boortz does a good job in explaining the fair tax.
But let's face it... The fed will never willingly give up the individual income tax. It gives them too much power for them to turn away from.
thats a tough nut to crack but they'll fight it more for all the hidden taxes that you don't see and that they use all the time to reach deeper into your pockets.
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Economics isn't my strong point, but initially this jumps out at me as a bad idea.
What have you guys got to say about it?
It's ****ing awesome. What else ya need? :-)
Tell ya what, I'll send you the Fairtax Book, by the awesome Neal Boortz, if you want.
Rebel, where do you get the book from? It's been on my to-do reading list. :)
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Economics isn't my strong point, but initially this jumps out at me as a bad idea.
What have you guys got to say about it?
It's ****ing awesome. What else ya need? :-)
Tell ya what, I'll send you the Fairtax Book, by the awesome Neal Boortz, if you want.
Rebel, where do you get the book from? It's been on my to-do reading list. :)
A book store. Here's your sign.
:bolt:
:-)
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Economics isn't my strong point, but initially this jumps out at me as a bad idea.
What have you guys got to say about it?
It's ****ing awesome. What else ya need? :-)
Tell ya what, I'll send you the Fairtax Book, by the awesome Neal Boortz, if you want.
Rebel, where do you get the book from? It's been on my to-do reading list. :)
A book store. Here's your sign.
:bolt:
:-)
I didn't know if it was only sold online.
And I totally walked right into that one. :-)
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You can get one from Amazon for eight bucks.
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You can get one from Amazon for eight bucks.
Cheapest place. There's also one called "The Fairtax Book-Answering the Critics". A follow up.
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You can get one from Amazon for eight bucks.
Why, thank you Chris, you've been very helpful. :wink:
Cheapest place. There's also one called "The Fairtax Book-Answering the Critics". A follow up.
Thanks Rebel, I bought both. :wink:
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Army Air Force Exchange Service
We don't pay any sales taxes through it. If that holds, you'll see an even bigger influx of people pushing to use them, since places like Walmart will now be more expensive.
In that case, the goods you purchase will be 21% cheaper than they are now.
Not at all. The PX/BX charges no sales tax because those are STATE taxes. A FEDERAL sales tax, tariff, excise tax, VAT, fair tax, or whatever else you want to call it would still have to be charged by AAFES.
It would probably have the effect of making the PX/BX slightly less competitive with Wally World, to the extent it would pull one way or the other at all.
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Army Air Force Exchange Service
We don't pay any sales taxes through it. If that holds, you'll see an even bigger influx of people pushing to use them, since places like Walmart will now be more expensive.
In that case, the goods you purchase will be 21% cheaper than they are now.
Not at all. The PX/BX charges no sales tax because those are STATE taxes. A FEDERAL sales tax, tariff, excise tax, VAT, fair tax, or whatever else you want to call it would still have to be charged by AAFES.
It would probably have the effect of making the PX/BX slightly less competitive with Wally World, to the extent it would pull one way or the other at all.
Any tarrifs, excise taxes or federal sales taxes and the like which are already imbedded into the wholesale price of goods would disappear to be replaced by the Fair Tax leaving it priced the same. State and local sales taxes were never applicable so you remain the same.
Point is that there are many taxes that get built in at wholesale that you just dont see unless you start burrowing into hundreds of pounds of tax law books.
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Yeah, I've been looking for something to help put me to sleep.
Books ALWAYS put me to sleep. This book, however, will not. Kinda hard to go to sleep when you're reading about a plan that'll allow you to keep ALL of your earnings.
But at the same time, jack the prices of EVERYTHING you ever buy up by 23-30%. Is that really going to level out?
Ahhhh, but you would be keeping the 20% of your wages the gub'mint is currently stealing out of your pay check! :-)
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Army Air Force Exchange Service
We don't pay any sales taxes through it. If that holds, you'll see an even bigger influx of people pushing to use them, since places like Walmart will now be more expensive.
In that case, the goods you purchase will be 21% cheaper than they are now.
Not at all. The PX/BX charges no sales tax because those are STATE taxes. A FEDERAL sales tax, tariff, excise tax, VAT, fair tax, or whatever else you want to call it would still have to be charged by AAFES.
It would probably have the effect of making the PX/BX slightly less competitive with Wally World, to the extent it would pull one way or the other at all.
Any tarrifs, excise taxes or federal sales taxes and the like which are already imbedded into the wholesale price of goods would disappear to be replaced by the Fair Tax leaving it priced the same. State and local sales taxes were never applicable so you remain the same.
Point is that there are many taxes that get built in at wholesale that you just dont see unless you start burrowing into hundreds of pounds of tax law books.
And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
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Army Air Force Exchange Service
We don't pay any sales taxes through it. If that holds, you'll see an even bigger influx of people pushing to use them, since places like Walmart will now be more expensive.
In that case, the goods you purchase will be 21% cheaper than they are now.
Not at all. The PX/BX charges no sales tax because those are STATE taxes. A FEDERAL sales tax, tariff, excise tax, VAT, fair tax, or whatever else you want to call it would still have to be charged by AAFES.
It would probably have the effect of making the PX/BX slightly less competitive with Wally World, to the extent it would pull one way or the other at all.
EXACTLY!
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Army Air Force Exchange Service
We don't pay any sales taxes through it. If that holds, you'll see an even bigger influx of people pushing to use them, since places like Walmart will now be more expensive.
In that case, the goods you purchase will be 21% cheaper than they are now.
Not at all. The PX/BX charges no sales tax because those are STATE taxes. A FEDERAL sales tax, tariff, excise tax, VAT, fair tax, or whatever else you want to call it would still have to be charged by AAFES.
It would probably have the effect of making the PX/BX slightly less competitive with Wally World, to the extent it would pull one way or the other at all.
Any tarrifs, excise taxes or federal sales taxes and the like which are already imbedded into the wholesale price of goods would disappear to be replaced by the Fair Tax leaving it priced the same. State and local sales taxes were never applicable so you remain the same.
Point is that there are many taxes that get built in at wholesale that you just dont see unless you start burrowing into hundreds of pounds of tax law books.
And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
HUH?! How do ya figure that out? Ya lost ME completely! :orly:
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And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
What part of "prices won't increase" do you not understand? If they do, they'll only be by about 1-2%. You're not factoring in the embedded taxes that will come out.
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Any tarrifs, excise taxes or federal sales taxes and the like which are already imbedded into the wholesale price of goods would disappear to be replaced by the Fair Tax leaving it priced the same. State and local sales taxes were never applicable so you remain the same.
Point is that there are many taxes that get built in at wholesale that you just dont see unless you start burrowing into hundreds of pounds of tax law books.
And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
You pay it either way. Either built into the wholesale price as it is today or as a sales tax in the Fair Tax. Either way that $12 item costs $12. Difference is you get every dollar of that (making up a number for discussion purposes only) $30 an hour you make with Fair Tax instead of the $20 you get in your pay now.
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And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
What part of "prices won't increase" do you not understand? If they do, they'll only be by about 1-2%. You're not factoring in the embedded taxes that will come out.
The part that says there will be a consumption tax.
Prices aren't taxes.
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And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
What part of "prices won't increase" do you not understand? If they do, they'll only be by about 1-2%. You're not factoring in the embedded taxes that will come out.
The part that says there will be a consumption tax.
Prices aren't taxes.
People do not realize that there are taxes inbedded into the wholesale prices and particularly to what extent.
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The part that says there will be a consumption tax.
Prices aren't taxes.
Yeah, businesses suck all the money they are taxed by themselves. They just give up the profits they "could" have received. :lmao:
Dude, seriously?
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And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
What part of "prices won't increase" do you not understand? If they do, they'll only be by about 1-2%. You're not factoring in the embedded taxes that will come out.
The part that says there will be a consumption tax.
Prices aren't taxes.
People do not realize that there are taxes inbedded into the wholesale prices and particularly to what extent.
Very true.
As I often mention on other boards... Companies in this country do NOT pay taxes. They simply roll it into the consumer purchase price.
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And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
What part of "prices won't increase" do you not understand? If they do, they'll only be by about 1-2%. You're not factoring in the embedded taxes that will come out.
The part that says there will be a consumption tax.
Prices aren't taxes.
People do not realize that there are taxes inbedded into the wholesale prices and particularly to what extent.
So, prices will drop 23-2%?
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So, prices will drop 23-2%?
Yes, how? Because our tax base of 40 million will go to 300+ million.
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So, prices will drop 23-2%?
Yes, how? Because our tax base of 40 million will go to 300+ million.
That is what I need to break even from my stupid Conservative saving.
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So, prices will drop 23-2%?
Yes, how? Because our tax base of 40 million will go to 300+ million.
That is what I need to break even from my stupid Conservative saving.
Huh?
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And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
What part of "prices won't increase" do you not understand? If they do, they'll only be by about 1-2%. You're not factoring in the embedded taxes that will come out.
The part that says there will be a consumption tax.
Prices aren't taxes.
People do not realize that there are taxes inbedded into the wholesale prices and particularly to what extent.
So, prices will drop 23-2%?
Yes, and then the Fair Tax will be applied bringing the tab back to what it is now. This will vary by item of course (car tires are heavily loaded I know, perhaps candy bars are less so for example).
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Eliminate the Federal Income Tax FIRST then a plan can be drawn up to replace it not the other way around. The Fair Tax is a pipe dream that will never materialize.
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Eliminate the Federal Income Tax FIRST then a plan can be drawn up to replace it not the other way around. The Fair Tax is a pipe dream that will never materialize.
I'm guessing you've never read H.R. 25, I.e., the Fair Tax bill?
....if you had, you'd know that repealing the 16th Amendment is a contingency to the implementation of the Fair Tax.
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And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
What part of "prices won't increase" do you not understand? If they do, they'll only be by about 1-2%. You're not factoring in the embedded taxes that will come out.
That's an impossibility. To the extent it replaced ONLY embedded taxes in the goods basket you buy, true, but to the extent it is supposed to replace all other taxes which are not so embedded, like income tax, that means the price the buyer actually pays to get the goods in his grubby little hands will go up quite significantly.
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And I would end up paying 20-25% tax on after tax money I have saved -- double (actually triple or more) taxation. A punishment for the thrifty.
What part of "prices won't increase" do you not understand? If they do, they'll only be by about 1-2%. You're not factoring in the embedded taxes that will come out.
That's an impossibility. To the extent it replaced ONLY embedded taxes in the goods basket you buy, true, but to the extent it is supposed to replace all other taxes which are not so embedded, like income tax, that means the price the buyer actually pays to get the goods in his grubby little hands will go up quite significantly.
No. Its too complex to cover in two paragraph posts.
FAIRTAX.ORG (http://FAIRTAX.ORG)
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It has zero chance of happening so debate about its feasibility is essentially just jaw-jacking. Here's why: Using Rebel's figures, spreading the taxes now paid by over 40 million over 300 million may be great for the 40 million, but that means not so great for 260 million, and the Congressmen that would have to pass tend to not be so keen on 4:26 odds. There are massively more stakeholders on the status quo side of the equation than on the Fair Tax side of it.
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That's an impossibility. To the extent it replaced ONLY embedded taxes in the goods basket you buy, true, but to the extent it is supposed to replace all other taxes which are not so embedded, like income tax, that means the price the buyer actually pays to get the goods in his grubby little hands will go up quite significantly.
The Fairtax will be a 23% tax on all new purchases made. Right now, there's about a 21% embedded tax, which will be removed. The only entity that will pay taxes, which is what they did before only without their knowledge, is the individual. The Fairtax also can't be manipulated without EVERYONE knowing about it. There is no pandering to a segment of the population. There is no shopping for votes with the Capital of promises to screw over those that have it better than you. 300 million people + 20 million undocumented illegals, will be paying into the system.
The only reason it wouldn't work is if everyone had the same type of attitude you have. ...one that was, unfortunately, pretty common before the Declaration of Independence. That attitude? "It can't happen".
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It has zero chance of happening so debate about its feasibility is essentially just jaw-jacking. Here's why: Using Rebel's figures, spreading the taxes now paid by over 40 million over 300 million may be great for the 40 million, but that means not so great for 260 million, and the Congressmen that would have to pass tend to not be so keen on 4:26 odds. There are massively more stakeholders on the status quo side of the equation than on the Fair Tax side of it.
Those 260 million other people get a monthly check up to the poverty level. About 150 a month per person.
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It has zero chance of happening so debate about its feasibility is essentially just jaw-jacking. Here's why: Using Rebel's figures, spreading the taxes now paid by over 40 million over 300 million may be great for the 40 million, but that means not so great for 260 million, and the Congressmen that would have to pass tend to not be so keen on 4:26 odds. There are massively more stakeholders on the status quo side of the equation than on the Fair Tax side of it.
Those 260 million other people get a monthly check up to the poverty level. About 150 a month per person.
They also vote, at least in the same proportion as the 40 million do. Are you math-impaired, or just don't want to think through how the House of Representatives actually works (including that little 'Popular election every two years' thing)?
Everything you've said is a great argument for the 4 in that 26:4 setup, and a worse deal for the 26. That 26 is not going to go for big changes like Fair Tax just because 'It won't make the prices that much different,' they would only do it because they see some advantage for them or their interests in the change, and so far it all cuts the other way for them. The fact that the present system doesn't seem equitable to the 4 means exactly jack to the 26.
Figure it out using some actual brain cells instead of testosterone and wishful thinking, and spare me the asswipe snark about "The same attitude as you, Revolution never would have happened, blahblahblah," you sound like some retard Paulista when you do that.
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They also vote, at least in the same proportion as the 40 million do. Are you math-impaired, or just don't want to think through how the House of Representatives actually works (including that little 'Popular election every two years' thing)?
Everything you've said is a great argument for the 4 in that 26:4 setup, and a worse deal for the 26. That 26 is not going to go for big changes like Fair Tax just because 'It won't make the prices that much different,' they would only do it because they see some advantage for them or their interests in the change, and so far it all cuts the other way for them. The fact that the present system doesn't seem equitable to the 4 means exactly jack to the 26.
...and there has never been a tax increase on the "rich" that has done a damn thing to help them either. On the contrary, it's had a negative impact on them as it affects the entire economy. The Fair Tax would give them 150 a month for life. This is across the board and not something you have to apply for. If they're that Damn stupid, they shouldn't vote anyway.
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Eliminate the Federal Income Tax FIRST then a plan can be drawn up to replace it not the other way around. The Fair Tax is a pipe dream that will never materialize.
I'm guessing you've never read H.R. 25, I.e., the Fair Tax bill?
....if you had, you'd know that repealing the 16th Amendment is a contingency to the implementation of the Fair Tax.
No I have not read it. How many admendments have been repealed or passed lately?. The ERA did not quite make it so I see zero chance of it happening. The Supreme Court has ruled against the states that try to impose sales tax on interstate sales where no nexus exists. The commerce clause throws another monkey wrench into the pie.
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If they're that Damn stupid, they shouldn't vote anyway.
Heh, well, I guess we both know "shouldn't" is a long way from "won't." Drives me nuts to see the voting campaigns sometimes, since to me it seems like it is just getting a bunch of know-nothings who have no commitment or opinion to go out and screw up the election by picking the name they can most easily pronounce or the prettiest face.
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Eliminate the Federal Income Tax FIRST then a plan can be drawn up to replace it not the other way around. The Fair Tax is a pipe dream that will never materialize.
I'm guessing you've never read H.R. 25, I.e., the Fair Tax bill?
....if you had, you'd know that repealing the 16th Amendment is a contingency to the implementation of the Fair Tax.
No I have not read it. How many admendments have been repealed or passed lately?. The ERA did not quite make it so I see zero chance of it happening. The Supreme Court has ruled against the states that try to impose sales tax on interstate sales where no nexus exists. The commerce clause throws another monkey wrench into the pie.
well, there was an amendment that passed in the 1990's after only 200 some years gaining ratifications...
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and to those of you who say that it won't happen because the congress won't give up the income tax et al, what ever happened to the people of this nation uniting and passing it by referendum? that's how the 21st amendment was passed...
true, that one repealed prohibition, but if/when effective tax rates go up to 50% or more for the middle class, what do you think the groundswell for it will look like?
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and to those of you who say that it won't happen because the congress won't give up the income tax et al, what ever happened to the people of this nation uniting and passing it by referendum? that's how the 21st amendment was passed...
true, that one repealed prohibition, but if/when effective tax rates go up to 50% or more for the middle class, what do you think the groundswell for it will look like?
Let Baracka get elected and people might be protesting in the streets with pitchforks. NO WAY IN HELL can we pay for his trillion+ dollar give-away package he's promising. Not even if he brings all the troops back on 21Jan09.
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and to those of you who say that it won't happen because the congress won't give up the income tax et al, what ever happened to the people of this nation uniting and passing it by referendum? that's how the 21st amendment was passed...
true, that one repealed prohibition, but if/when effective tax rates go up to 50% or more for the middle class, what do you think the groundswell for it will look like?
A small ripple. It won't just JUMP to that high. It will get there over a period of several years (decades even) in small increments.
When the 16th Amendment was passed I suspect the average income tax rates weren't nearly what they are now.
Unless I am mistaken we are paying more in taxes now than any other time in our country's history. I don't see any groundswell picking up momentum.
The biggest problem is that it seems that far too many Americans have lost sight of whom is really in charge. Most of them think the government is. They don't seem to know nor excercise their authority as sovereign citizens. IMO anyway.
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I'm gonna get bitchslapped for this, but the two most damaging amendments to the United States Constitution were the 17th and 19th amendments. :bolt:
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I'm gonna get bitchslapped for this, but the two most damaging amendments to the United States Constitution were the 17th and 19th amendments. :bolt:
I agree with you 100% on the 17th, but what don't you like about the 19th?
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I'm gonna get bitchslapped for this, but the two most damaging amendments to the United States Constitution were the 17th and 19th amendments. :bolt:
I agree with you 100% on the 17th, but what don't you like about the 19th?
Women, NO, NOT ALL, but most, are emotional creatures. Not logical. Men, NO, NOT ALL, but most, are geared more towards freedom. Women are geared towards security. This is biological and there's nothing a feminazi can do to change it.
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I'm gonna get bitchslapped for this, but the two most damaging amendments to the United States Constitution were the 17th and 19th amendments. :bolt:
I agree with you 100% on the 17th, but what don't you like about the 19th?
Women, NO, NOT ALL, but most, are emotional creatures. Not logical. Men, NO, NOT ALL, but most, are geared more towards freedom. Women are geared towards security. This is biological and there's nothing a feminazi can do to change it.
I take your point. I know more than one woman that has told me she voted for Bill Clinton cuz they thought he was handsome.
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I take your point. I know more than one woman that has told me she voted for Bill Clinton cuz they thought he was handsome.
Everyone knows at least one. My ex-wife's sister voted for Clinton for the same reason. She said "cute" though.
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There has been a lot written about the feminization of America, the outlawing of masculinity, etc., and no matter how politically incorrect it may be I have to agree that the hardwired drive for security above all is the single greatest threat to our personal liberty, more dangerous than any passing despot because it is a relentless presence that works on our society from birth, through socialization in the schools, to the inevitable drift in favor of it because of pandering to the impulse in elections and the press which in turn results in ever-more-restrictive attitudes, statutes, and case decisions.
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and to those of you who say that it won't happen because the congress won't give up the income tax et al, what ever happened to the people of this nation uniting and passing it by referendum? that's how the 21st amendment was passed...
true, that one repealed prohibition, but if/when effective tax rates go up to 50% or more for the middle class, what do you think the groundswell for it will look like?
A small ripple. It won't just JUMP to that high. It will get there over a period of several years (decades even) in small increments.
When the 16th Amendment was passed I suspect the average income tax rates weren't nearly what they are now.
Unless I am mistaken we are paying more in taxes now than any other time in our country's history. I don't see any groundswell picking up momentum.
The biggest problem is that it seems that far too many Americans have lost sight of whom is really in charge. Most of them think the government is. They don't seem to know nor excercise their authority as sovereign citizens. IMO anyway.
Go to the American Heritage website sometime, and look up your "tax freedom day". When the confiscations of the fruits of the sweat of your brow from all levels of government are added together, you're already a slave to your government for at least 6 months out of every year.
50% effective tax rates don't have to creep up on us, because they're already here. The effective tax rate on the English colonies in America was 3% when they told King George and his Parliament - the ones who levied all those onerous taxations without representation - to go pound sand. When are we going to wake our little froggie asses up and realize that the water in this big silver pot we're in is getting hotter, and I'm starting to see bubbles that can't be accounted for by frog farts.
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Economics isn't my strong point, but initially this jumps out at me as a bad idea.
What have you guys got to say about it?
It may be a bad idea.
First...It's a tax that cannot be hidden....at all. Don't get me wrong, I hate the income tax, but at least you can find ways to circumvent it. You won't be able to do that with the fair tax.
me thinks there needs to be more debate on it and there needs to be other options. I am not sold on it by any means...because once it's in place your stuck with it. There is more chance of the income tax being repealed then there would be getting rid of a real tax on goods.
Laurence Vance is a strong opponent of it and a free market expert to boot. I strongly urge you to read his arguments (below link) and any arguments you can on this so people aren't duped at how "grand" this would be.
http://mises.org/story/1814
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and to those of you who say that it won't happen because the congress won't give up the income tax et al, what ever happened to the people of this nation uniting and passing it by referendum? that's how the 21st amendment was passed...
true, that one repealed prohibition, but if/when effective tax rates go up to 50% or more for the middle class, what do you think the groundswell for it will look like?
A small ripple. It won't just JUMP to that high. It will get there over a period of several years (decades even) in small increments.
When the 16th Amendment was passed I suspect the average income tax rates weren't nearly what they are now.
Unless I am mistaken we are paying more in taxes now than any other time in our country's history. I don't see any groundswell picking up momentum.
The biggest problem is that it seems that far too many Americans have lost sight of whom is really in charge. Most of them think the government is. They don't seem to know nor excercise their authority as sovereign citizens. IMO anyway.
Go to the American Heritage website sometime, and look up your "tax freedom day". When the confiscations of the fruits of the sweat of your brow from all levels of government are added together, you're already a slave to your government for at least 6 months out of every year.
50% effective tax rates don't have to creep up on us, because they're already here. The effective tax rate on the English colonies in America was 3% when they told King George and his Parliament - the ones who levied all those onerous taxations without representation - to go pound sand. When are we going to wake our little froggie asses up and realize that the water in this big silver pot we're in is getting hotter, and I'm starting to see bubbles that can't be accounted for by frog farts.
yep....
but its all in the name of 'business' these days, as it was in King Georges days....
but too many americans are too stupid to realize that they are behaving as slaves & are taxed as much as ANYONE on earth....
maybe not percentage wise, but dollar wise, I'm betting our government confiscates & redistributes MORE MONEY than any country on earth ?
we now pay more to operate our vehicles & receive healthcare than ANY major/secure nation on earth as well...
and fair tax will make it all worse, because it will be a MORE EFFECTIVE way to confiscate money cause EVERYTHING will be double & triple taxed....
EVERYTHING....
king george dances in his grave at this notion...
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Be punished for your frugality -- yeah, works for me.
Good point.
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Those 260 million other people get a monthly check up to the poverty level. About 150 a month per person.
Sounds like socialism.
We already have that with earned income credits...what a sham.
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When the 16th Amendment was passed I suspect the average income tax rates weren't nearly what they are now.
When the 16th Amendment was passed, one Congressman was censured for suggesting that opening this door would one day lead to taxes on income as high as - gasp - 20%.
But then the congressional memory has always been mayfly brief in it's longevity.
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When the 16th Amendment was passed I suspect the average income tax rates weren't nearly what they are now.
When the 16th Amendment was passed, one Congressman was censured for suggesting that opening this door would one day lead to taxes on income as high as - gasp - 20%.
But then the congressional memory has always been mayfly brief in it's longevity.
Some of us still believe it is an illegal tax....but what can you do.
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A crowd of people with torches and pitchforks come to mind.
So long as you continue to grant credence to the argument that the Government is in charge in America, and not the individual Americans, you're right. The moment you CEASE to allow that false argument to be used against you, you resume your role in our country as a free man, capable of determining your own destiny.
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A crowd of people with torches and pitchforks come to mind.
So long as you continue to grant credence to the argument that the Government is in charge in America, and not the individual Americans, you're right. The moment you CEASE to allow that false argument to be used against you, you resume your role in our country as a free man, capable of determining your own destiny.
Collectivism is a bitch isn't it?
You can tell alot about a person by the answer to one question.
True or False. The Federal Government and America are the same thing?
And watch how many drink that koolaide up!!
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Sounds like socialism.
We already have that with earned income credits...what a sham.
What? No, I don't mean JUST 260 million. I mean EVERY legal citizen will receive a check of this amount to cover the cost of taxes paid up to the poverty level.
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yep....
but its all in the name of 'business' these days, as it was in King Georges days....
but too many americans are too stupid to realize that they are behaving as slaves & are taxed as much as ANYONE on earth....
maybe not percentage wise, but dollar wise, I'm betting our government confiscates & redistributes MORE MONEY than any country on earth ?
we now pay more to operate our vehicles & receive healthcare than ANY major/secure nation on earth as well...
and fair tax will make it all worse, because it will be a MORE EFFECTIVE way to confiscate money cause EVERYTHING will be double & triple taxed....
EVERYTHING....
king george dances in his grave at this notion...
Maybe this is why your business always fails. You still believe businesses pay taxes. :whatever:
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yep....
but its all in the name of 'business' these days, as it was in King Georges days....
but too many americans are too stupid to realize that they are behaving as slaves & are taxed as much as ANYONE on earth....
maybe not percentage wise, but dollar wise, I'm betting our government confiscates & redistributes MORE MONEY than any country on earth ?
we now pay more to operate our vehicles & receive healthcare than ANY major/secure nation on earth as well...
and fair tax will make it all worse, because it will be a MORE EFFECTIVE way to confiscate money cause EVERYTHING will be double & triple taxed....
EVERYTHING....
king george dances in his grave at this notion...
Maybe this is why your business always fails. You still believe businesses pay taxes. :whatever:
and what successful business have you owned &/or taken direct part in for several decades ?
my biz isn't a failure....
in fact, until the oil queers f**ked everything up in april/may, my biz was going on a RECORD year for sales & profits....
what you don't seem to understand, is that WE ALL PAY to subsidize big business in this country , as well as government....
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what you don't seem to understand, is that WE ALL PAY to subsidize big business in this country , as well as government....
Big business monopoly and failed banks (see this weeks news on Fanny Mae) get government subidies. Well...that's corporate welfare. So basically these shitty businesses are no different from the crack whore on welfare.
And when we all cash in our stimulus checks, borrowed from foreign governments like the Chinese btw, and payoff our visa or put a down payment on that new Prius, then we can be thankful we just gave that business more government tax money. In the era of big government there are few that don't live off the dole.
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and what successful business have you owned &/or taken direct part in for several decades ?
my biz isn't a failure....
in fact, until the oil queers f**ked everything up in april/may, my biz was going on a RECORD year for sales & profits....
what you don't seem to understand, is that WE ALL PAY to subsidize big business in this country , as well as government....
I still have my antiques business with my mother. My taxes increase, I raise my prices. I.e., my customer pays my taxes. This doesn't take a PhD to understand, John. Doesn't even take a business owner. It's common ****ing sense. :whatever:
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Big business monopoly and failed banks (see this weeks news on Fanny Mae) get government subidies. Well...that's corporate welfare. So basically these shitty businesses are no different from the crack whore on welfare.
And when we all cash in our stimulus checks, borrowed from foreign governments like the Chinese btw, and payoff our visa or put a down payment on that new Prius, then we can be thankful we just gave that business more government tax money. In the era of big government there are few that don't live off the dole.
You don't think you'll get a disagreement here, do you? On corporate bailouts? Look mang, I know you're a Paul supporter, probably a Barr supporter now, but that wasn't what caused us to move here. We disagreed with his foreign policy stance on Iraq and Afghanistan. "Some" of his other positions were a little whacked out, but so are McCain's.
You won't get anyone here supporting corporate bailouts. Welcome aboard.
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First...It's a tax that cannot be hidden....at all.
that's a good thing, if most americans had to write an annual check to the gov't for income taxes instead of making their interest-free loans via withholding, the tax revolution would have been decades ago. maybe that should be the next step, introduce money into the economy by outlawing withholding...
What? No, I don't mean JUST 260 million. I mean EVERY legal citizen will receive a check of this amount to cover the cost of taxes paid up to the poverty level.
should have put emphasis on the word legal... no green card, no money. you can be here illegally, but you're gonna pay 23% tax on everything you buy and not get reimbursed up to the poverty level. i believe there was a different thread about making the environment hostile to them and they'd leave?
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True or False. The Federal Government and America are the same thing?
FALSE