The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: dutch508 on January 19, 2015, 08:18:14 AM
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:o
I tried to come up with a smart assed title for this... but I am dumbfounded...
redgreenandblue (1,309 posts) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026102730
The American state-religion is not Christianity. It is Nationalism.
In many ways Christianity has been dressed up to meet the needs of Nationalism, but Nationalism supercedes it. In America Christianity has to pay homage to Nationalism, not the other way around. That is why Pat Robertson is acceptable, but Fred Pheps or Jeremiah Wright are not.
American Nationalism has all the markings of a religion. It has its mythology, its "chosen people", its shrines, its saints (founding fathers, former presidents etc.), its martyrs (mostly soldiers) and its anti-blasphemy laws (don't believe me? try dancing at the Jefferson memorial). It absolves a person of any personal responsibility for crimes (torture, mass murder) committed in service of its deity (country).
It also ruthlessly punishes apostasy (ask Chelsea Manning).
Let me quote that great DUmpmonkey fountain of knowledge... WIKI: A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence
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jwirr (27,041 posts)
2. In the 60s a Catholic priest (don't remember his name) wrote a book that talked about the
religion of Americanism. I read it in a sociology class and he laid it out very clearly. I agree. We worship America - we are exceptional you know.
Of course you did. Of course you can't...
marym625 (4,013 posts)
27. As soon as you said novel I knew who you meant. Loved him. His books were in my house all the time. A progressive, Chicago priest of irish decent, like the trifecta in my mom's book
Irish Catholic Socialst Priest...
KingCharlemagne (2,758 posts)
4. Nationalism is suboridinate, imo, to Mammon, the one deity above all others. Back in the Middle Ages, the biggest structures in a village, town or city were the churches. Today, it's pretty much the banks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon
pampango (18,667 posts)
8. That's certainly true of the far-right both here and elsewhere - part of the us vs them mindset "nationalism" is the one common thread uniting far-right groups.
The racist movement is comprised of white supremacy groups such as the KKK, neoNazi groups such as the National Alliance and Skinheads groups such as the Hammerskin Nation. The groups comprising this movement are interested in preserving or restoring what they perceive as the appropriate and natural racial and cultural hierarchy, by enforcing social and political control over non-Aryans/nonwhites such as African Americans, Jews, and various immigrant communities. Therefore, their ideological foundations are based mainly on ideas of racism, segregation, xenophobia, and nativism (rejection of foreign norms and practices).
The antifederalist rationale is multifaceted, and includes the beliefs that the American political system and its proxies were hijacked by external forces interested in promoting a “New World Order†(NWO) in which the United States will be absorbed into the United Nations or another version of global government.
Lastly, the fundamentalist stream, which includes mainly Christian Identity groups such as the Aryan Nations, fuse religious fundamentalism with traditional white supremacy and racial tendencies, thus promoting ideas of nativism, exclusionism, and racial superiority through a unique interpretation of religious texts that focuses on division of humanity according to primordial attributes. More specifically, these groups maintain that a correct interpretation of the holy texts reveals that it is not the people of Israel but the Anglo-Saxons who are the chosen people and therefore assert their natural superior status.
If there is one ideological doctrine about which there is almost full consensus regarding its importance for understanding the far-right worldview, it is that of nationalism. Historically, the literature on nationalism has taken diverse directions and is extremely rich, but in its varying guises it usually refers to the association between ethnic, cultural and/or linguistic identity and political expression, or more simply put, the convergence of a cultural framework with a political entity.
In the context of the far-right worldview, nationalism takes an extreme form of full convergence between one polity or territory and one ethnic or national collective. Two elements are required for the fulfillment of this version of the nationalist doctrine. The first is that of internal homogenization, i.e., the aspiration that all residents or citizens of the polity will share the same national origin and ethnic characteristics. The second is the element of external exclusiveness, the aspiration that all individuals belonging to a specific national or ethnic group will reside in the homeland.
http://www.ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/ChallengersFromtheSidelines.pdf
Burma Jones (11,717 posts)
10. So, when this Protestant got Engaged to his Jewish Wife some 21 years ago......People asked, "What Religion are you going to raise your kids?" To which I replied, "the real religion in the USA, American Materialism" Our Troops are not defending our shores, they're defending our "way of life"...........And that's from their own mouths We're basically raising our children Jewish/Quaker/Presbyterian with a serious disdain for commercial speech, jingoism and stupid.
you failed on the stupid
cpwm17 (2,515 posts)
14. Bill Maher is a big supporter of tribalism. His hatred of folks with different religious beliefs than he has is just more of his tribalism. He supports war against the proper victims. BEFORE the Iraq War he said he didn't care if we went in, and he said that to his liberal audience that was against the war.
ChosenUnWisely (159 posts)
30. Actually the American State religion is Fascism and has been for a very long time now. Folks just don't want to admit the truth that America is a fascist nation. But that is just my opinion based upon traveling to many countries all over the world, serving in the US military and looking critically at America from the outside.
It's so fascist we elected a sworn enemy of the nation to lead it for the last two presidential elections.
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Fred Phelps and Jeremiah Wright are not Christians. Just wanted to get that straight at the outset.
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Fred Phelps and Jeremiah Wright are not Christians. Just wanted to get that straight at the outset.
How do you figure?
I won't argue with you about Wright, but Fred Phelps was a Baptist.
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I thought it was socialism?
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I thought it was socialism?
Socialism is the religion od Mammon because everything about socialism revolves around the control of money.
And as far as "nationalism" is concerned those little shits have no room to talk.
Why do they oppose the TPP?
Because it takes jobs away from Americans.
Why do they oppose H1B visas?
Because it takes jobs away from Americans.
Why do they love illegal immigrants and Islamists?
Because they only hurt the Americans the nationalist socialists don't approve of.
Those phony hypocrites are everything they profess to hate.
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How do you figure?
I won't argue with you about Wright, but Fred Phelps was a Baptist.
He didn't attempt to live out the commands of Christ. He didn't love his neighbor and he didn't love his enemies or his perceived enemies.
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Fred Phelps was a Baptist.
Was.
The Baptists are pretty sure he isn't one of them.
I suppose someone could call themselves Libertarian but if they came out railing against excessive greed and the need to rectify income equality with a broad spectrum of government programs we probably wouldn't too quick to allow them to keep the label of Libertarian without contest.
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Read Amendment Number One. The establishment of a State sponsored religion in the United States is strictly proscribed.
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Read Amendment Number One. The establishment of a State sponsored religion in the United States is strictly proscribed.
To the Proglodyte mind the acceptance of the idea of God in so large a majority of people constitutes an establishment of religion.
The Proglodytes will not be content until the number of religiously inclined individuals is so diminished that they become an "easily managed" minority.
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Was.
The Baptists are pretty sure he isn't one of them.
I suppose someone could call themselves Libertarian but if they came out railing against excessive greed and the need to rectify income equality with a broad spectrum of government programs we probably wouldn't too quick to allow them to keep the label of Libertarian without contest.
I said 'was' because Ol' Fred's dead.
He was a Baptist 'til the bitter end, and his spawn and followers are still Baptists. The Westboro Baptist Church is an unaffiliated Baptist congregation; but Baptist churches are not required to belong to a convention or larger denomination.
Fred Phelps was baptized, and the pastor of an unaffiliated Baptist church. So what disqualifies him from the title 'Christian'?
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I said 'was' because Ol' Fred's dead.
He was a Baptist 'til the bitter end, and his spawn and followers are still Baptists. The Westboro Baptist Church is an unaffiliated Baptist congregation; but Baptist churches are not required to belong to a convention or larger denomination.
Fred Phelps was baptized, and the pastor of an unaffiliated Baptist church. So what disqualifies him from the title 'Christian'?
I would think acting like a Christian would be something of a requirement.
Methinks Fred appropriated the name Baptist to give himself credibility and because he imagined himself the One True Evangelizer of The Word.
But that doesn't mean he was.
Just like plenty of advocates for Anthropogenic Climate Change will assure you they are "scientists"
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I thought it was socialism?
News to me, I thought it was Gorebull Warmingtm
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I said 'was' because Ol' Fred's dead.
He was a Baptist 'til the bitter end, and his spawn and followers are still Baptists. The Westboro Baptist Church is an unaffiliated Baptist congregation; but Baptist churches are not required to belong to a convention or larger denomination.
Fred Phelps was baptized, and the pastor of an unaffiliated Baptist church. So what disqualifies him from the title 'Christian'?
He didn't behave as a Christian. That is what, in my mind disqualifies him. I can call myself Amish, but if I don't abide by the rules and life style of an Amish then I am not Amish. People call themselves solider's all the time when in fact they have never served. Would you call someone a soldier just because someone says they are?
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As to Fred Phelps, being a Baptist doesn't make you a Christian. It just makes you a Baptist. You could be the best Baptist in the world and still not be a Christian. For the record, Fred Phelps was far from being the best Baptist in the world.
Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
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He didn't behave as a Christian.
Are you sure? Jesus may disagree with you.
According to Mark 16:16, Jesus said that there were two, and only two, qualifications to be 'saved'. One: believe in Jesus; and two: be baptized.
There is no doubt that ol' Fred believed in Jesus, more fervently (even fanatically) than most. There is also no doubt that he was baptized.
While you may find Fred repugnant, as I do (and I have the added benefit of actually knowing him and his clan), you may not use the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy to disown him.
That is the same fallacy used by King Putt when he claims violent Muslim jihadis are not 'really' Muslim. Neither of you get to define or decide.
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KingCharlemagne (2,758 posts)
4. Nationalism is suboridinate, imo, to Mammon, the one deity above all others. Back in the Middle Ages, the biggest structures in a village, town or city were the churches. Today, it's pretty much the banks.
And the god the left worships is Moloch and his temples are spread far and wide and are called Planned Parenthood Clinics.
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Want to know an easy way to tell if someone's a traitorous, anti- American Commie d- bag?
If they refer to having any kind of love for or pride in one's own country (Especially if the country in question is America) as "Nationalism" or "Jingoism."
But don't you dare question their patriotism!
I would never deny that some bad things have happened in our nation's history (Slavery, genocide against the Native- Americans, segregation, etc.), as bad things have happened in pretty much EVERY country's history, but I still know that America remains a bastion of freedom in the world, a nation which has done a lot of good in the world, and a nation which, with proper guidance (Which naturally excludes Obama, and pretty much everyone else the DUmp fawns over), can continue to do good in the world.
Fred Phelps and Jeremiah Wright are not Christians. Just wanted to get that straight at the outset.
Amen.
Fred Phelps was the leader of a pseudo- Christian cult which was a "Baptist" church in name only (It isn't affiliated with any officially- recognized branch of the Baptist Church, even the independent branches) with no more than 60 members, almost all of whom are related to him through blood or marriage. All he focused on was finding ways to blatantly spread hate to as many people as possible, and often in the most vile and tasteless ways possible.
Jeremiah Wright is the leader of a pseudo- Christian, black nationalist cult which had only the barest connection to the Christian faith, preferring instead to rely on hate- filled, racially- charged blasts of extreme liberation theology. Jeremiah Wright's church is to Christianity what the Nation of Islam is to regular Islam.
God doesn't look very fondly on self- righteous religious phonies who twist the faith in order to pursue their own purposes, and are corrupting influences on those who follow them. Fred Phelps is undoubtedly experiencing the reality of that firsthand in Hell at this very moment, and unless Jeremiah Wright repents while on this side of eternity, he'll share the same fate.
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Are you sure? Jesus may disagree with you.
According to Mark 16:16, Jesus said that there were two, and only two, qualifications to be 'saved'. One: believe in Jesus; and two: be baptized.
There is no doubt that ol' Fred believed in Jesus, more fervently (even fanatically) than most. There is also no doubt that he was baptized.
While you may find Fred repugnant, as I do (and I have the added benefit of actually knowing him and his clan), you may not use the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy to disown him.
That is the same fallacy used by King Putt when he claims violent Muslim jihadis are not 'really' Muslim. Neither of you get to define or decide.
What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Even Satan believes in Jesus and I think that Satan would have no problem finding someone to baptize him.
Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?†Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
John 14:22-24
Fred Phelps did not keep Jesus' word, thus he did not love Christ and cannot be a Christian. To believe in Christ is to do his will. I think that Fred believed in the existence of Christ but did not believe in Christ.
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To the Proglodyte mind the acceptance of the idea of God in so large a majority of people constitutes an establishment of religion.
*ding!* *ding!* *ding!* The same warped mindset that will tell you that the Constitution establishes the Separation of Church and State, which as pertains to their BFF pseudo-religion, it is inseparable.
The Proglodytes will not be content until the number of religiously inclined individuals is so diminished that they become an "easily managed" minority.
...because it's Religion that is stopping action on Global Bullshit. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: God, they are so f*cking stoopid.
jwirr (27,041 posts)
2. In the 60s a Catholic priest (don't remember his name) wrote a book that talked about the religion of Americanism. I read it in a sociology class and he laid it out very clearly. I agree. We worship America - we are exceptional you know.
marym625 (4,013 posts)
27. As soon as you said novel I knew who you meant. Loved him. His books were in my house all the time. A progressive, Chicago priest of irish decent, like the trifecta in my mom's book
Just one of the plethora of reasons why I despise Chicago, am not fond of the Irish and am no longer a practicing Catholic. I will never, not believe, but I refuse to do it with them.
FULL DISCLOSURE: I was born and partially raised in Chicago, am part Irish and was baptized, confirmed and still consider myself, Catholic. I will go back when they shuck all that Socialist bullshit, but I will never set foot in Chicago again. Far any reason.
ChosenUnWisely (159 posts)
30. Actually the American State religion is Fascism and has been for a very long time now. Folks just don't want to admit the truth that America is a fascist nation. But that is just my opinion based upon traveling to many countries all over the world, serving in the US military and looking critically at America from the outside.
Funny. I served far longer than you, visited many more countries and got the exact opposite impression. I wonder why? Unwisely? You've chosen stoopid.
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.because it's Religion that is stopping action on Global Bullshit. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: God, they are so f*cking stoopid.
The DUmmies don't realize that many of the churches support their crazy belief in global warming.
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Are you sure? Jesus may disagree with you.
According to Mark 16:16, Jesus said that there were two, and only two, qualifications to be 'saved'. One: believe in Jesus; and two: be baptized.
There is no doubt that ol' Fred believed in Jesus, more fervently (even fanatically) than most. There is also no doubt that he was baptized.
While you may find Fred repugnant, as I do (and I have the added benefit of actually knowing him and his clan), you may not use the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy to disown him.
That is the same fallacy used by King Putt when he claims violent Muslim jihadis are not 'really' Muslim. Neither of you get to define or decide.
"Believe," as used in Mark, has ramifications that include repent, follow, and obey, all of which are carefully laid out repeatedly in the New Testament. The mark of a true Christian is a changed life, a life lived to obey the Will of God, a life lived to become more and more like Jesus. Jesus most certainly did not act like Phelps, and Phelps made no obvious move to act like Jesus. Jesus introduced the world to a God of love, not just a God of wrath. Phelps seems to have missed almost the entire New Testament and a goodly portion of the Old.
That said, it's quite true that only Jesus knows who belongs to Him, so it's possible Phelps did...there just is no earthly evidence of the life we're commanded to live.
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redgreenandblue (1,309 posts) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026102730
The American state-religion is not Christianity. It is Nationalism.
The American state-religion is not Christianity, nor is it nationalism. It is atheism...which is taught in every public school and public venue across the country, and enforced with laws and court rulings.
Posted by: dutch508
WIKI:
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A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence.
Unquote
Atheism, the organized collection of beliefs that is enforced in American public places.
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What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Even Satan believes in Jesus and I think that Satan would have no problem finding someone to baptize him.
John 14:22-24
It appears that you are saying that Satan would be saved and could return to Heaven, if he was baptized. Is that what you are saying? If it is, then Jesus appears to have laid out the road map for Satan's redemption.
Wouldn't you say?
Fred Phelps did not keep Jesus' word, thus he did not love Christ and cannot be a Christian. To believe in Christ is to do his will. I think that Fred believed in the existence of Christ but did not believe in Christ.
So, Jesus didn't really mean it, when he said "He who believes in me and is baptized will be saved"; and the word of God is subject to terms and conditions, as the lawyers say.
You also appear to discount the deathbed repentance, which neither you nor I know if ol' Fred made before he assumed room temperature. You know, the parable of the Prodigal Son.
You may want to check with your pastor about those bits of theology. You may also want to read Matthew 7:1-2, and think about judging the status of another man's soul. I hear that can come back to bite a fella.
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Fred Phelps was a Baptist.
My daughter's cat, "Psycho" claims to be a Baptist, too. And last night I sat in our fridge for half an hour saying that I'm a jar of pickles.
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Fred Phelps has about as much right to to be called a Christian as Sharpton and Jackson do being called "Reverend"
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redgreenandblue
The American state-religion is not Christianity. It is Nationalism.
Pure projection from a group of fools who worship at the foot of an all providing govt.
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It appears that you are saying that Satan would be saved and could return to Heaven, if he was baptized. Is that what you are saying? If it is, then Jesus appears to have laid out the road map for Satan's redemption.
Wouldn't you say?
No, that is what you are saying. You say that all Christ requires is believing in him and being baptized. That is true up to a point but to believe in Christ is also to live out his other commandments.
So, Jesus didn't really mean it, when he said "He who believes in me and is baptized will be saved"; and the word of God is subject to terms and conditions, as the lawyers say.
You also appear to discount the deathbed repentance, which neither you nor I know if ol' Fred made before he assumed room temperature. You know, the parable of the Prodigal Son.
You may want to check with your pastor about those bits of theology. You may also want to read Matthew 7:1-2, and think about judging the status of another man's soul. I hear that can come back to bite a fella.
You sure read a lot out of my post that I didn't put in it. You are moving the goal posts. Deathbed repentance is good if there is true repentance for ones actions. Since his followers are still doing has he taught them then it is safe to assume there was no deathbed repentance. I may be wrong because I don't know the hearts of man. I can only base my opinion on his actions. Many of the Nazi's repented while waiting trial and possible execution. Those ministering to them felt their repentance to be real and if so then they were saved.
Believing in Christ means more that just saying "Yes Jesus I believe in you" and then going on your merry way and living an unchanged life. That my friend is called antinomianism. One can believe in Christ and not believe Christ. The terms and conditions you refer to are merely natural responses of loving someone. When I fell in love with my wife it stirred in me certain changes and responses. I wanted to spend more time with here that I did with my friends. I also stopped seeking out the romantic companionship of other women. Now if I told her I loved her and then spent all my time as I did before and seeing other women would she be wrong to assume that I didn't really love her?
Finally, you should really understand Matthew 7 and the comments on Judgement before you use it. I don't think it means what you think it means. You use it much in the same away the DUers do when they are criticizing Christians. If a Christian cannot judge then how would he or she know who to reach out to and who to avoid? The epistles of Paul speak about dealing with those who claim to be Christian but who are not behaving as Christians. Is that not judging someone's faith? Admittedly it is for the spiritual health if the offender but it is also for the spiritual health of the body of Christ.
I am not sure why you are taking me to task over then when there have been others commenting that have said the same thing. With that said, I don't mind defending my beliefs. In fact I enjoy it and thank you for the opportunity to clarify my understanding of Christs teachings. If I am wrong about something or have misunderstood then I want to know. I am a fallen human and far from perfect. I see things though the eyes of fallen man and I understand that I often see through the glass darkly.
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I am not sure why you are taking me to task over then when there have been others commenting that have said the same thing. With that said, I don't mind defending my beliefs. In fact I enjoy it and thank you for the opportunity to clarify my understanding of Christs teachings. If I am wrong about something or have misunderstood then I want to know. I am a fallen human and far from perfect. I see things though the eyes of fallen man and I understand that I often see through the glass darkly.
It's a pleasure to discuss this with you, my friend. Any religion or philosophy which can't withstand rigorous examination is not worth the name.