Author Topic: Here is a suggestion about unions for anyone interested  (Read 665 times)

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Offline 5412

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Here is a suggestion about unions for anyone interested
« on: February 19, 2011, 08:00:25 PM »
Hi,

I have been reading many conflicting points of view about the unions, thugs, leaders, corruption and the like and have finally come to a conclusion.

John McCain actually got one thing right when everyone was going on about big corporations and the stupid, unrealistic bonuses that were given to the top executives.  In most all the corporations where that happened, the compensation was put together by the board of directors.  McCain wanted all publically traded corporations to be like Hewlett Packard where the top executives compensation has to be approved directly by the stockholders.

If those in government really want to tackle an issue that would be popular with the public and rank and file how about this one.  Pass a law making card check illegal, secret ballot is inherent to all Americans.  Make each union have to go through a vote to either eliminate the union or retain it every five years.  And finally, all compensation, bonuses, and perks paid to top executives must be approved by secret ballot, counted by an independent third party by the majority of the membership.  Every union member must be provided with the information so they understand the compensation paid to all of the top executives.

At the same time the same should be done for executive compensation for all publically traded corporations so pass that at the same time so the unions would have one less argument.  Shouldn't those folks paying their dues, and shouldn't the stockholders of public corporations have the direct ability to control the compensation of their leaders?

Let the unions do the dirty work and clean up their mess.  Unions represent a small minority of the work force, the membership generally acknowledges abuse and corruption but many are afraid to do anything about it.  Give them the means to do so, without fear of repraisal and my guess is a lot of unions would clean up a lot of the mess themselves.

regards,
5412

Offline TVDOC

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Re: Here is a suggestion about unions for anyone interested
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2011, 08:22:25 PM »
Although idealistically a good idea, making executive bonus decisions subject to stockholder approval would be far too cumbersome to actually work.  Having been a bonus level manager for a very large corporation, I can tell you that the amount of bonus received is a very complex mixture of personal measurable performance, unit level performance, revenue generation, and funds available versus level of management involved.  The stockholders in most cases, already DO have to approve members of a corporations compensation committee, if you look, it's one of the items on that proxy card that most stockholders either ignore or throw away.

Typically the number of actual votes coming in versus actual shares eligible to vote runs about 8%.

And as far as attempting to explain executive compensation to the average union puke.....you are welcome to try, but most of them have trouble just punching their own timecard correctly, let alone understanding something as complex as that.

Executive pay is determined by competition......that's capitalism......not a popular vote.

doc
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Offline 5412

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Re: Here is a suggestion about unions for anyone interested
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2011, 09:45:01 PM »
Although idealistically a good idea, making executive bonus decisions subject to stockholder approval would be far too cumbersome to actually work.  Having been a bonus level manager for a very large corporation, I can tell you that the amount of bonus received is a very complex mixture of personal measurable performance, unit level performance, revenue generation, and funds available versus level of management involved.  The stockholders in most cases, already DO have to approve members of a corporations compensation committee, if you look, it's one of the items on that proxy card that most stockholders either ignore or throw away.

Typically the number of actual votes coming in versus actual shares eligible to vote runs about 8%.

And as far as attempting to explain executive compensation to the average union puke.....you are welcome to try, but most of them have trouble just punching their own timecard correctly, let alone understanding something as complex as that.

Executive pay is determined by competition......that's capitalism......not a popular vote.

doc

Hi Doc,

Seems to work for HP doesn't it?

I understand and support capitalism totally.  At the same time the competition was created by board of directors for many corporations being out of control and bidding up the wages unnecessarily.  Take it out of their hands and you still have competition in the labor market and savvy stockholders will be smart enough to reward executives who look after their interests.

At the same time, while I agree competition has a factor in determining compensation, it is the owners of the business who should decide the compensation of all employees.  At one time I believe all 13 of George Halas' grandchildren worked for the Chicago Bears.  Why do I suspect competition had little to any effect on their compensation, and the owner of the company made those decisions?

regards,
5412
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 09:59:16 PM by 5412 »

Offline Doc

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Re: Here is a suggestion about unions for anyone interested
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 11:22:05 AM »
Hi Doc,

Seems to work for HP doesn't it

I have no idea how HP's compensation system works.....perhaps the stockholders may vote on the CEO/CFO/COO salary and bonus structure, but in large companies there are literally thousands of bonus-eligible managers and executives.  The stockholders can't possibly vote on all of them without the annual proxy statement looking like the New York telephone book.

Further, I'm not impressed with HP's market performance over the past few years, I wouldn't hold them up as an example......so they might want to look at a different method.

Quote
I understand and support capitalism totally. At the same time the competition was created by board of directors for many corporations being out of control and bidding up the wages unnecessarily. Take it out of their hands and you still have competition in the labor market and savvy stockholders will be smart enough to reward executives who look after their interests.

The boards of Directors ARE elected by the stockholders.....if they are "out of control", the stockholders can fire them........look at it this way........you and I don't go to Washington DC, and vote on every matter personally that impacts us, we elect our representatives to do that.........essentially the same with a corporate board.

That said, corporations are NOT democratic organizations.....their mission IS NOT to follow an agenda set by every mooch that owns a share of stock.  Their mission is to return a PROFIT.  If it takes paying rather large salaries and bonuses to attract the talent to accomplish that, it's just a cost of doing business.

I've personally known a number of highly-paid CEO's, some of which I'm certain you would recognize their names.......by and large, they are brilliant businesspeople, and they EARN what they make.  If they are good enough to run a large organization, and strategically plan for its future products and services, I don't begrudge them their pay.

Quote
At the same time, while I agree competition has a factor in determining compensation, it is the owners of the business who should decide the compensation of all employees.  At one time I believe all 13 of George Halas' grandchildren worked for the Chicago Bears.  Why do I suspect competition had little to any effect on their compensation, and the owner of the company made those decisions?

If George Halas owned the Chicago Bears as either the sole (or majority) stockholder, or as a sole proprietor, it's frankly, none of your business who he employs.....he's the boss, and he can do what he wants with it.  Don't like it, don't watch their games.  As I said above, companies are not democratic organizations, they are pretty much "benevolent dictatorships".  That's the way they work.  If you are an employee, and don't like how the company is run, you are free to leave.  If you are a stockholder, and don't like it, you can sell your shares......

When I ran a division of a large corporation with approximately 2,800 employees, I had BOTH of my sons working for me at one time.......one was sweeping floors and painting the buildings, and the other was driving a forklift.  Both are now executives in their own right (with other companies), and universally value the experience of starting at the bottom.  Had either of them failed to perform their duties up to expectations, I had instructed their supervisors to fire them........It was my job to staff my division, and I didn't give a crap what the stockholders (or the public at large) thought about it.  I cared about what my boss, the COO's opinion, but his daughter worked for me as well......under the same job security caveats.....



doc
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 11:54:14 AM by TVDOC »

Offline 5412

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Re: Here is a suggestion about unions for anyone interested
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 01:47:44 PM »
HI,

We totally agree.  When one owns a business, as I have, it is no one's business who you employ or how much you pay them.  The comedian Gallagher used to pay his 2 year old daughter $25,000/year.  He said the IRS questioned it and he showed them tapes showing how he used her and her antics for much of his comedy and it was allowed.

I was just trying to refute the remark that it is competition that determines salaries.  I happen to believe that is the responsibility of the owner(s) of a company.  Now they of course do not want to lose good employees, and want to attract good employees so it is prudent to know what competition is paying in a competitive labor market.

If they cannot pay the going rates, they close up shop, move the jobs to Mexico and the libs call them greedy capitalists.

regards,
5412