Benton D Struckcheon (660 posts)
The Zimmerman Trial: The Scream
The bit about who was yelling for help has always bothered me. The very first thing I did when I played that 911 tape for myself was to repeatedly go over the end, the point where the scream stops and you hear the gun shot.
The scream ends at that exact moment.
I think we all know why, and I have always thought it answered definitively the question of who that was yelling for help on that tape. I don't even know why it comes up as a question.
Anyway, reading the Frederick Leatherman blog that was referenced in another thread here, and I came across this, which explains perfectly, in my opinion, why that scream could only be Trayvon (excerpted from entry of June 26). It's exactly what I've always thought:
The cross examination took a sadistic turn when West attempted to exploit an inconsistency between her in-court identification of Trayvon as the source of the shriek and her statement during her deposition when she said she thought it was Trayvon...
I think the jurors understand, or will understand by the end of the trial, that there is no functional difference between saying, “that sounds like Trayvon,†or “I think that’s Trayvon,†or†that is Trayvon.â€...
Because the sound is unique, unambiguous, and easily understood by anyone, no matter their native language, I do not believe that anyone can positively identify a person who uttered such a shriek without considering the context of the situation that produced it.
In other words, a person must believe they are about to be executed in order to produce a sound like that. Total. Panic.
That is why people are identifying Trayvon as the source using language like “I think†or “I believe†that acknowledges the uniqueness of that sound while nevertheless knowing exactly what it means.
There is only one person who knew without doubt that death was but an instant away and it is not the person who had the gun.
There is a reason why that shriek ended with the gunshot.
The reason is the gunshot silenced the scream forever.
That is what we know, whether we knew Trayvon or not, and that is why this jury should convict the defendant of second degree murder...
And now, as the trial slips away from them, the wild imaginings come out.
John2 (2,078 posts)
90. I don't believe
Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:11 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
Good. Good's testimony was that he put one foot out the door and clearly saw both persons. He clearly claimed Martin was beating Zimmerman MMA style and and Zimmerman was calling for help. He even claims he yelled at them to stop. You are going to contend neither Martin or Zimmerman heard Good? Also Good is going to contend that he saw Zimmerman getting beat to death and yelling for help, while he did nothing to intervene or help? What is even more damming for Good, his voice never appears on any of the other 911 tapes.
You also heard the nature of the scream, which was in desperation would be damming for Good. Put yourself into Good's position, witnessing what he claims. Would you have intervene or go upstairs and call 911? What Good described and did, made little sense. That is why I feel Jenteal is more authentic than Good, who was probably coached more even though he was a prosecution witness. He was not a prosecution witness at first but was interviewd by several investigators. His testimony was probably one of the biggest reasons Zimmerman didn't get charged with murder at first.
Good is lying.
Good is bad for not intervening when he claims he heard panicked screaming.
But there was panicked screaming. Proglodytes assert this.
So those must have been Trayvon's panicked screaming.
So Good stood by as a BLACK kid was screaming in panic to not be executed by a creep ass cracker.
louis-t (12,564 posts)
3. Does anyone else wonder how Martin could have 'seen' or 'grabbed' the holstered gun
if it was really that dark? Someone is on top of you or you are on top of someone in the dark, can you 'see' that he is armed?
targetpractice (2,553 posts)
6. I do. It's easier to imagine if Zimmerman had the gun in his hand rather than his holster.
And, Trayvon was on top trying to disarm Zimmerman.
I want to be-LEEEEEEEEV!
Shankapotomus (2,425 posts)
7. Excellent post
Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:51 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
I agree. I strongly suspect why Trayvon not only fought so hard but was the one screaming because
1.) He didn't conclude Zimmerman was the community watch but a possible attacker.
(We know this because he described Zimmerman to his friend as "creepy." If you're up to anything bad like breaking into houses, you're not perplexed about why someone is following you.)
2.) Still not knowing Zimmerman was with the community watch, regardless of who initiated the struggle, at some point Trayvon realized Zimmerman had a gun and was reaching for it.
(Once he realized this, Trayvon must have panicked and possibly concluded he couldn't run but had to forcibly incapacitate or subdue Zimmerman to prevent Zimmerman from shooting him.)
3.) Any unarmed person in a physical struggle with someone they know or suspect is reaching for a gun, will panic and scream for help.
(That isn't conclusive proof it wasn't Zimmerman who was screaming but I don't see why Martin would stay silent during such a moment when he suspects he is close to being shot. In fact, I believe he would be screaming right up until the moment he was shot, as your most observant OP concludes.)
Giving Zimmerman the most benefit of the doubt, what we are left with is two individuals both exercising their right to self-defense based on mutually erroneous conclusions drawn about each others motives.
So in a such a scenario where both sides have a legitimate right to self defense, who is at fault?
It is clearly Zimmerman because, the last description we have of Martin before the confrontation was he was running away from Zimmerman and in disobeying the orders of police not to follow Martin, Zimmerman's actions set up the whole unfortunate scenario. So Zimmerman definitely bares some legal responsibility for Trayvon Martin's death.
George II (3,059 posts)
28. And if it was Zimmerman screaming, it would have stopped when he took out his gun.....
....not after he fired it.
It never ceases to amaze me that the people who fear guns the same as they fear honest labor are always portray themselves as such experts on both.
George II (3,059 posts)
54. And he had good reason to be in fear of his life.
I'm surprised it hasn't come out in the trial (unless I missed it, or it will come out next week with the last few witnesses) the fact that Martin was shot in the chest even though he was supposed to have been on top of Zimmerman. How could that happen?
So far they've said very little about the location of the wound and how it could have happened if it was really "self defense".
pacalo (21,029 posts)
85. Directly in the heart was quite an aim, wasn't it. If there had been a struggle when he shot
the gun, it seems like the location of entry would have been more random -- shoulder, backside, whatever.
This is why I'm stoically serene about the coming civil war with these idiots.
pacalo (21,029 posts)
84. As the OP pointed out, the screaming stopped abruptly when the gun went off.
If it had been Zimmerman screaming, he gained his composure as quickly as a light switch turned off. When neighbors addressed Zimmerman to learn what was going on, not one of them mentioned in their statements that he was extremely agitated. I can't fathom anyone who had just screamed continuously for help not continuing to be a complete emotional wreck after the situation had ended. Yet Zimmerman was relatively well composed, other than the pacing, for someone who had just killed someone.
Star Member ChiciB1 (12,991 posts)
51. I Certainly Agree With Your "Right" To Comments
and/or mine. Not sure what your point is. Burglaries or not, judgments made either way, my point is that the media has focused more on "creepy ass crackers" being much more negative than all the other negative statements uttered by GZ. To the extent that what TM said is worse than anything GZ ever said.
Why should TM's comments be looked upon as worse than GZ's? Even listening to the previous tapes of GZ I certainly get the impression that he views himself in a better light than any person of color.
It's almost as if he doesn't acknowledge that they're many white people who have some serious character flaws. I've often used the example that when it comes to serial killers, the overwhelming number of them are white. Then look further at our penal system and the ratio of white vs. people of color.
To me the media is giving more creditability not only to GZ, but also to Mr. Good's testimony. Anyone does have the "right" to their opinion, but for the media or any group to push a biased agenda feels very wrong to me. And at the very least UNFAIR.
Any tell me WHY many feel it's acceptable that GZ pursued TM simply because of previous burglaries, as opposed to doing what the 911 operator said there was no need for him to do? So that now GZ can cry self defense when he himself could have avoided all of this!
So, if the overwhelming number of serial killers are white what does it mean if the overwhelming number of people in our penal system convicted of serial killing are white?
And how does ANY of that transmute Zimmerman's "These punks are always getting away with this" into a racist mindset?
It DOESN'T!
You idiots just want you race riot to prop up the sick narrative required to explain away the miserable failure of your arrogant existence.
George II (3,059 posts)
55. Lot's of truth about what you say, but we have to remember the trial is taking place in Florida!!
FYI -- Floridians think Canadians are annoying jackasses.
Enthusiast (21,843 posts)
63. That is one fine post, right there.
Many do not seems to recognize Trayvon's right to self defense.
Sorry, but I think it comes down to a subtle racism. Maybe not so subtle in some cases.
Women being assaulted don't have a right to self-defense but Trayvon does.
John2 (2,078 posts)
91. Yep,
Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:44 AM USA/ET - Edit history (3)
Zimmerman went even further to paint Trayvon as a monster, when he claimed Trayvon saw his gun and was going to commit cold blooded murder. Now that is a big leap from just juvenile pranks and no criminal record, to actually cold blooded murder. It makes no sense at all.
The more logical sense is Trayvon was fighting for his life and Zimmerman just shot him while Trayvon was struggling and hitting Zimmerman in the face and on the back of the head to get away. That is one way to explain the injuries to Zimmeman and the lack of them to someone fighting for their life. There was no evidence of Zimmerman fighting at all, except shooting his gun. He had no injuries on his hands or knuckles. That doesn't appear to be someone fighting for their life. Someone fighting for their life, would have landed blows on the assailant not opposite. There are a number of cases where the victim gave injuries to their murderor.
If Trayvon is punching with his hands and Zimmerman has him on a grip up close, with his gun already loaded and in firing position, That is more logical. Zimmerman could have snuck up on Trayvon and that was when his cell phone hit the grass. Remember Jenteal said Trayvon stopped for a moment to talk to her. Zimmerman could have been still searching for Trayvon and caught him talking to Jenteal on the cell phone. Trayvon probably thought he lost Zimmerman. and did the police recover Martin's cell phone?
ChiciB1 (12,991 posts)
27. I Too Live In Florida...
And that pretty much begins and ends her credentials.
I also took part in a "Justice For Trayvon" march in what I call my "white bread" community.
A.K.A. "Please don't burn our neighborhood."
I guess we'll see how well your "empathy" will be rewarded in about 4 weeks, huh?
I don't know the ratio of white vs, black/latino/ethnic breakdown in numbers, but having lived here since '87, the white population stifles any other group!
OHMYGAWD!
Probably higher white count than that in Sanford. I think there are more latinos here simply because the affluent population here "want" them, as they hire them and can play lower wages. I can say that without reservation because I've been told that more than once by residents here. It is what it is. This place has a per capita income that ranks in the top 5 in the state.
How do you pay people lower wages and have them live in an affluent community?
I'm not one of the affluent, far from it, but live here because my husband got his job here so we've never left.
IMO, had this murder not gained high profile attention, this trial would NEVER have happened. A sad commentary, but one I feel is very true. I doubt the scream is going to be given much consideration by the jury. One might feel it does prove it was TM, I feel so myself, but as in the Anthony case the judge could very well say certain evidence IS NOT admissible for deliberation. The judge has already ruled that no expert can be a witness to give this testimony. At least that's what I understand.
So far, ONE person, Mr. Good has stated it was TM on top, the others have said not sure or they felt it was GZ on top. And already this is the biggest news and the talk of the trail. Some going so far as to state THIS witness is the GAME CHANGER! Mr. Good didn't say he was absolutely positive about this either, but somehow he's more credible. I'm not surprised about this, but I am extremely annoyed and upset. I don't have high hopes that much will happen to Zimmerman and almost feel he's going to walk.
I fervently hope I'm wrong. But using self defense as his reason for shooting TM gives GZ a LOT of wiggle room. They aren't disputing he followed him or that there was a confrontation, just that he felt his life was in danger!
I feel GZ did profile him, feel he was the aggressor, feel he had no need to be carrying a gun and other feelings as well. BUT that's not what GZ is on trial for. SELF DEFENSE, that's it and it SUCKS!
Self Defense: it SUCKS!
From what I'm reading on DU I think the Proglodytes have pretty much given us free license to pound their heads against the sidewalk.
And I'm OK with that.
Rebellious Republican (3,448 posts)
37. ThanksChiciB1...
I very much agree with everything you said. My reply was only based on the Jury and what they have to go by.
I myself have served on Jury duty. I think both Rachel Jeante and Mr. Good are both bad witness's. Ms. Jeante appeared to be on some sort of mood altering drug. However I do not know this to be fact, only a personal observation. Mr Good looks like he could be a poster boy for a White supremacist group, I get a bad vibe about him and how his testimony was eerily similar to GZ.
I was not there, I could not discern GZ or TM's voice on the 911 cal,l simply because I do not know either one personally. I do not think any one could including experts.
I can speak of the prevalent racism here in Florida. There is not one race or ethnic group that does not have their racists among them. I have experienced it myself from both sides, and I am white. My belief is that GZ is or was a wannabe cop, I know many like him.
I feel for the jury in this case, it is not going to be a simple matter. Regardless of the outcome, I do believe that this is going to affect the "Stand your Ground " law in this state. A law I never agreed with and believe it should be struck down. This should also be a reminder to those politicians that strip the funding of a professional police force in lew of a volunteer vigilante police force in the name of lower taxes (for the Wealthy). I do hope that out of this tragedy, there will come some good.
pacalo (21,029 posts)
86. I can't wrap my head around the fact that Zimmerman was too composed afterward
Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:06 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
for someone who claimed to be the one screaming desperately for help just moments before the shot. A person screaming for fear of his life would be extremely agitated & a bundle of nerves. He was relatively calm, non-responsive to one of the neighbors who had questioned him, & his adrenalin should have been pumping off the charts.
TRANSLATION: Zimmerman should have been acting like a hysterical sissy...like me.
Star Member barbtries (15,041 posts)
12. i really hope the prosecutor is making these arguments.
this is from fb:
On the matter of the Zimmerman trial, here's a simple question...
You're in a fight. Never mind who started the fight, or why, you're in it. You have a gun. Your opponent is unarmed. Now, do you yell for help, or do you yell a warning? Now, turn the tables. Your opponent has a gun, you don't. Now what do you yell, for help, or a warning?
I mean, let's get real. Nobody yells "stop!" (or you'll shoot), and nobody yells, "help!" (or I'll shoot). In a fight between two guys where one has a gun, and the other doesn't, the one screaming "help" will be the one without a gun. That's just common sense.
But there's a deeper point that's being missed here. And that is, there's no dispute that Zimmerman had a gun, and Trayvon didn't. There's also no disputing that someone is yelling for help. But there's ALSO no disputing that NO ONE IS YELLING A WARNING. And that's pretty important. Because that means that no matter which of them was yelling for help, Zimmerman gave no warning that he would shoot, before he did. And THAT is indefensible! (Ed)
https://www.facebook.com/thebeerparty
<RETORT FROM POSTER: brandishing a weapon may be a felony>
barbtries (15,041 posts)
48. i'm saying that these facts should be brought before the jury.
give them these facts to ponder. it should help remove any doubt about who was yelling for help. clearly there was no lethal threat to zimmerman. imo he wanted to kill someone and he did. since it's florida there is too good a chance he'll get away with it. the jury needs to have their assumptions shaken up.
You might want to brush-up on the legal concept of SPECK-YOU-LAY-SHUN
Hoyt (12,487 posts)
53. Maasad Ayoob, who likes to pose with a gun on his hip, is just another indirectly responsible for
Trayvon's death. Would love to hear his observations.
arcane1 (20,247 posts)
14. The scream definitely doesn't sound like someone whose head is being repeatedly slammed...
into the sidewalk.
Let's do an experiment.
You lie down on this sidewalk...
targetpractice (2,553 posts)
26. Maybe Trayvon wasn't beating on Zimmerman... Maybe he was trying to deflect the gun or disarm him.
I would be screaming for help the moment a threatening man displayed a gun in a situation where I trying to get home after going to the store.
Thor_MN (4,739 posts)
31. I have no proof whatsoever, but
I'd bet that Zimmerman's cuts occurred after the gunshot, when he realized what he had done. Forgot that he was still holding the gun.
Point is, the two small cuts have no absolute link to the struggle before the gunshot. They can not prove that Martin was "on top".
hfojvt (31,547 posts)
35. maybe also he cut himself
with Occam's razor.
Which would suggest that the simplest explanation is that the back of his head got cut because he was lying on his back on the cement.
heh
Thor_MN (4,739 posts)
39. You have proof the he was lying on his back on the concrete?
If you can prove that, then yes, that's probably where he got the cuts. Otherwise you have a circular argument, i.e. nothing.
hfojvt (31,547 posts)
73. uhm, no, I have a simple explanation
Perhaps even the simplest one. Banging your head on cement could easily cause such a cut.
You have a more complicated explanation (also with no proof).
Your reason for rejecting the simplest explanation is not because there is no proof for it, because there is also no proof for the complicated explanation. And your reason for imagining a complicated explanation is because you are starting with the a priori assumption that Zimmerman is a guilty a$$hole (that is, he was never assaulted) and then looking for a way to explain away the evidence (the cut to the back of his head) which would seem to indicate that he was assaulted.
We don't know if either story is true, but you have provided NO reason for rejecting the simple theory.
AAO (1,595 posts)
25. First let me say that I believe it was Trayvon screaming
but if Zimmerman was the one screaming, wouldn't he be able to stop screaming once he shot Trayvon dead? Just playing the "devil's advocate".
Notice how this poster says that even if you're screaming in fear for your life you're still a murdering asshole:
SunSeeker (5,462 posts)
44. I can't imagine anyone screaming help as they are squeezing a trigger into someone's chest.
It makes no sense. What help help do they need? Help to not be a murdering asshole?
These next 2 are instructive.
We all know how Proglodytes fetishize guns. To them they represent an undue weight of power that decent civilized people are not entitled to possess (but the government should possess exclusively -- HINT! HINT!).
Ergo, anyone with a gun has the weight of power and should not be allowed to fear of one's life as a defense. A woman with a gun has no right to claim she was about to be raped -- she has all the power. A store owner with a gun has no right to say he feels a fear of being robbed and killed -- he has all the power. Thus, since they have no reasonable right to fear for their lives they have no right to claim defense for fear of their lives and as such are to be sent to prison.
Of course this will change the next time someone feels the need to claim all gun owners are cowering pussies.
SunSeeker (5,462 posts)
95. That blood-curdling screaming was by a young voice fearing for his life.
As in, a gun is pointed at me and I am about to die. You don't scream for help just because you got punched in the nose, especially when you stalked the person who ended up punching you. And Zimmerman had a gun, fighting with a skinny unarmed teen. And he knew the cops were on their way. What help did he need? He certainly was not fearing for his life over a broken nose. Getting punched does not evoke that kind of screaming. Having a gun pointed at you does.
But I agree about our gun culture's role in this. I doubt Zimmerman would have tried to keep Martin from "getting away" if he did not have a gun strapped to his side. That caused the confrontation and when Zimmerman got punched, he got pissed off and shot the "****ing punk."
TorchTheWitch (7,537 posts)
45. why would the person who had the gun and used it
be the one screaming for help? Once that gun came out there was no reason for Zimmerman to scream so desperately for help. That gun was all the "help" he needed.
For that matter, what person that has a gun waits to bring it out AFTER being subjected to the injuries that Zimmerman was? The whole POINT to having a gun is to deter such things from happening, not necessarily by shooting it but by brandishing it to stop an attacker or prevent someone from attacking at all. It was Zimmerman's gun that gave him the "courage" to chase after and confront Martin... he wouldn't have done that without it as that would be far too dangerous to himself. Why else would Zimmerman feel the need to carry a gun while on neighborhood watch when the neighborhood watch program forbids watchers to carry any sort of weapon? Why else would Zimmerman feel justified and not in the least bit of danger to chase after this kid who was doing nothing but walking home in the rain and confront him without his gun when he knew that chasing after people was prohibited by neighborhood watchers?
It was Zimmerman's gun that determined everything that he did from the start. Without that gun he would not have gotten out of his car. Without that gun he would not have chased after Martin. Without that gun he would not have confronted Martin. And that gun determined everything that followed. There was no way that Zimmerman was going to chase this kid and confront him and allow himself to be injured without using that gun. EVERYTHING he did was because of his having that gun, and a person that has a gun is not going to allow themselves to be injured particularly severely before bringing it out. Zimmerman just didn't imagine that when the gun came out that Martin would fight for his life believing he'd be shot if he didn't but expected him to meekly surrender. It just isn't logical to believe that with all of Zimmerman's actions that his gun permitted him to do resulted in his NOT drawing it until AFTER he thought he was being pummeled to death (not that I believe that's what occurred).
When is it EVER the one with the gun that is the one terrified and screaming for help while brandishing it at an unarmed kid?
BklnDem75 (2,288 posts)
70. Only death will stop constant screaming like that
In a fight for one's life, screaming like that would more likely end with heavy panting from the screamer if he survived. Every time I hear the recording, the pitch of the scream increases before the shot is heard. That's the sound one expects to hear when the barrel of the gun finds it's mark. Pure panic.
BlueStreak (4,235 posts)
77. That argument belies a fake objectivity, IMHO
It is not clear cut. The argument can go either way just as easily. If Zimmerman was screaming for help because Marten was on top pounding him, then it makes perfect sense that Zimmerman would stop screaming once he had shot Martin. Why would he keep screaming if the pounding had stopped?
Obviously either party would stop screaming at the moment of the gunshot.
Saying that this "proves" conclusively that it was Martin doing the screaming just indicates a complete lack of objectivity, I believe.
SHUT UP NOOB
reusrename (688 posts)
79. Try rereading the OP, this time try reading for comprehension.
What could have caused Zimmerman to believe he was going to die in that moment the trigger was pulled?
He had made himself armed and dangerous before ever pursuing the Martin kid. Although he is a coward through and through, he was never scared that night, he was having his fantasies come true.
In other words: Another people-with-guns-have-more-power-than-their-attackers-so-they-can't-claim-fear-for-their-lives.
But then he descends to I-know-Zimmerman's-deepest-fantasies.
All of which is perfectly admissible, I'm sure.
And if it isn't admissible it's proof our society is racist.
csziggy (14,537 posts)
81. It's that 40+ seconds of terrified screaming that makes it murder not manslaughter
Since I know in my heart that those screams came from Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman had at least forty seconds to decide to kill Martin - that is time enough for premeditation. There isn't enough evidence to support a first degree murder charge, though, so they had to try for second degree.
Now they tell us Zimmerman held Martin at gunpoint for 40 seconds -- as witnesses watched -- before "executing" a terrified, screaming teenager and then faked his injuries.
lexington filly (8 posts)
87. Personally, it's too horrifying for me to believe the screams are Mr. Martin's.
If I were on the jury, I don't think it would be relevant which person's primal screams were recorded. Given the facts so far, Mr. Zimmerman instigated all the actions which led to Mr. Martin's death. Even if Mr. Martin punched Mr. Zimmerman first, by then it was apparent to him he was being stalked by an older man and I'd think this 17 yr old was scared out of his wits. It's rainy, dark, he's in unfamiliar territory, he keeps trying to get back to where he's a guest---and this strange, silent man keeps coming. As just an ordinary citizen, I think Mr. Zimmerman drove the situation to the point where Mr. Martin was absolutely justified in feeling the man wasn't harmless and he needed to protect himself the best way a teenager could think of that night.
Mr. Zimmerman's actions from almost the beginning point to some character flaws to me. Neighborhood Watches I thought want to prevent neighborhood crime. So either you see something suspicious, call the police & sit tight for them to show up and do their job. Or, you could prevent by: when Mr. Zimmerman saw Mr. Martin had caught on to his watchfulness in the parking lot, why didn't Z roll down his window and say something non-adversarial & identify himself in a non confrontational way? Call me a woman, but that's how I would have handled genuine suspicion.
But Mr. Z didn't even show the tiniest courage by cracking his window. He sneaked, he crept, with a ready to fire gun on his hip, escalating a benign circumstance situation every step of the way. The man obviously thought if he were playing with matches, he had all the fire: cops on the way, a gun, sneaky in the dark.
It could have been Mr. Z screaming because no one screams louder than a bully who's had the table turned on himself. That's what his behavior reflects: a passive-aggressive bully.
Frankly I'd rather believe it wasn't Mr. Martin's primal screams because it means he saw his murder coming for inexplicable reasons and was powerless to stop it and not one damn person had the backbone to do anything but make a weak, token gesture. I feel so much more horrified visualizing and hearing the screams in that context.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023127378
