Ohio State Football gets hammered

[franksolich]

Frank, I admire your passion for OSU football, but the name "Woody Hayes" conjures up an image I have in my mind where he (Hayes), in 1978, struck the nose guard from Clemson with either a fist or an arm following an interception that led to the Buckeyes' loss. That one got Hayes fired.

He was an old man when that happened.

It's charitable to give the aged among us some leeway.

Woody Hayes, like Bear Bryant, looked like a college football coach.

There's no doubt that Bo Schembechler was a good college football coach, but he always looked goofy, standing there chewing gum; unprofessional.

[Eupher]

He was an old man when that happened.

It's charitable to give the aged among us some leeway.

Woody Hayes, like Bear Bryant, looked like a college football coach.

There's no doubt that Bo Schembechler was a good college football coach, but he always looked goofy, standing there chewing gum; unprofessional.

Whoa, this is a new twist.

You mean it's okay for a college football coach to physically hit an opposing player just because he's old? I'm not going to get into a tit-for-tat exchange with you about Schembechler, because, frankly, I don't care, but Hayes was out of control.

Maybe Schembechler was an out-of-control gum chewer -- I dunno -- but I'm pretty sure he didn't hit anybody.

[franksolich]

Whoa, this is a new twist.

Exactly.

Woody Hayes was an old man, considerably battered and beaten up by the rigors of life.

It was a temporary lapse of judgement; if he'd been younger it was fire-worthy.

I always thought he should get a slap on the wrist--of course--but certainly not fired.

[dandi]

Ever hear of a swim team get investigated for recruiting violations?

NCAA Penalizes UI Men's Swim Team For Major Violations

http://news-releases.uiowa.edu/2006/november/110206ncaa-violations.html

What about any woman's sport?

Asst. women’s basketball coach under NCAA investigation
http://ksusentinel.com/sports/asst-women%E2%80%99s-basketball-coach-under-ncaa-investigation/

August 22, 2007-Purdue University (Women’s Basketball)

July 16, 2008-Texas Southern University (Women's Softball, Men's Tennis, Women's Tennis)

March 25, 2009-Texas A&M-Corpus Christi (Men's Tennis, Women's Volleyball)

August 20, 2009-University of Memphis (Men's Basketball, Women's Golf)

November 5, 2009-University of Richmond (Men's Basketball, Women's Basketball, Baseball, Football, Women's Golf, Women's Lacrosse, Women's Track, Indoor, Mixed Track, Outdoor)
http://www.chapelboro.com/pages/10170020.php

The University of West Georgia women’s basketball team will not be playing in the NCAA Division II Women’s Basketball Tournament this season due to an ongoing investigation by the NCAA
http://www.times-georgian.com/view/full_story/3285048/article-NCAA-investigation-ends-UWG-s-season-Wolves-out-of-NCAA-Tournament--university-says-probe-not-targeting-specific-sport

SE Missouri loses two seasons of women's basketball
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/news/story?id=3451227

[Eupher]

Exactly.

Woody Hayes was an old man, considerably battered and beaten up by the rigors of life.

It was a temporary lapse of judgement; if he'd been younger it was fire-worthy.

I always thought he should get a slap on the wrist--of course--but certainly not fired.

With age comes wisdom. Allegedly.

No amount of excuse-making, Frank, can account for a football coach who lashes out at an opposing player. Please stop. You're better than that.

[dandi]

Woody Hayes was an old man, considerably battered and beaten up by the rigors of life.

It was a temporary lapse of judgement; if he'd been younger it was fire-worthy.

I always thought he should get a slap on the wrist--of course--but certainly not fired.

Sorry, but this is bull.  I have spent too many years as a leader to accept any excuse for shit behavior.

Woody Hayes was a punk, an old punk to be sure, but a punk regardless for that incident.  A head coach is the face and standard bearer for the team; no excuses, no forgiveness.

If you take it upon yourself as the face and standard bearer for a group to act like a punk, then your group will act like punks.

[dandi]

 

[unbiased]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the links. But as I scanned over the violations, I didn't see any that compare to getting a tatto. They were mostly infractions by the university, not the kids, giving away too many scholorships or using ineligible players. Both of those violations affect the game. I still don't think getting a tattoo impacted anything on the field. But OSU will not only live with the consequences, they will get better because of it (wishful thinking from a Buckeye). In fact, they just hired 3-time super bowl champion Mike Vrabel to be linebacker coach and their new head coach Luke Fickell is widely considered to be Ohio's best high school heavyweight wrestler ever. It's always good to get a wrestler to straighten things out.  

But I was definitely suprised to read of the violations you provided in your post.

[franksolich]

With age comes wisdom. Allegedly.

Well now, I will frankly admit my opinion is a minority one; it's possible I'm the only person who thinks this way.

But we have different standards, different expectations, of an infant as compared with a 20-year-old as compared with a 40-year-old as compared with a 60-year-old.

If younger college football coaches of the time, such as Tom Osborne or Barry Switzer, had done what Woody Hayes did, they should've been fired.

Number one, being younger, they would've been expected to have more self-control, not losing their head in the passion of a moment.  Number two, if fired, they were still young enough to go onto something else in which they'd be successful; they'd have time to redeem themselves.

Woody Hayes was on the down-side of life, a life remarkable in its composure and equilibrium, and slowly starting to deteriorate--that's what happens with ageing.  He had already more than demonstrated his good clean sportsmanship and awesome leadership all those preceding decades.  It's too bad he didn't continue in that manner to the end of his career, but older people fall apart.

God gave us judgement, the ability to discern differences, and since it's a gift from God, we're supposed to use it.  Of course human judgement is varied and arbitrary, and hotly disputed--but having the same expectations, the same standards, for all to me seems a bit much.

[dandi]

Number one, being younger, they would've been expected to have more self-control, not losing their head in the passion of a moment.  Number two, if fired, they were still young enough to go onto something else in which they'd be successful; they'd have time to redeem themselves.

Woody Hayes was on the down-side of life, a life remarkable in its composure and equilibrium, and slowly starting to deteriorate--that's what happens with ageing.  He had already more than demonstrated his good clean sportsmanship and awesome leadership all those preceding decades.  It's too bad he didn't continue in that manner to the end of his career, but older people fall apart.

God gave us judgement, the ability to discern differences, and since it's a gift from God, we're supposed to use it.  Of course human judgement is varied and arbitrary, and hotly disputed--but having the same expectations, the same standards, for all to me seems a bit much.

Very enlightening....

[Eupher]

Well now, I will frankly admit my opinion is a minority one; it's possible I'm the only person who thinks this way.

But we have different standards, different expectations, of an infant as compared with a 20-year-old as compared with a 40-year-old as compared with a 60-year-old.

If younger college football coaches of the time, such as Tom Osborne or Barry Switzer, had done what Woody Hayes did, they should've been fired.

Number one, being younger, they would've been expected to have more self-control, not losing their head in the passion of a moment.  Number two, if fired, they were still young enough to go onto something else in which they'd be successful; they'd have time to redeem themselves.

Woody Hayes was on the down-side of life, a life remarkable in its composure and equilibrium, and slowly starting to deteriorate--that's what happens with ageing.  He had already more than demonstrated his good clean sportsmanship and awesome leadership all those preceding decades.  It's too bad he didn't continue in that manner to the end of his career, but older people fall apart.

God gave us judgement, the ability to discern differences, and since it's a gift from God, we're supposed to use it.  Of course human judgement is varied and arbitrary, and hotly disputed--but having the same expectations, the same standards, for all to me seems a bit much.

Frank, this is unmitigated hogwash. Bitchslapped for being a bullshit artist.

[franksolich]

Very enlightening....

Come on, now, sir; surely one has different expectations, different standards, for a parent who's 40 years old, as compared with a parent who's 80 years old.

[franksolich]

Frank, this is unmitigated hogwash. Bitchslapped for being a bullshit artist.

Well, I admitted that judgement is arbitrary, and subject to heated dispute.

[Eupher]

Come on, now, sir; surely one has different expectations, different standards, for a parent who's 40 years old, as compared with a parent who's 80 years old.

Frank, at the time of the 1978 Gator Bowl in which he punched or slapped at the Clemson player, Hayes was 65 years old.

Again, are you trying to say these things, one, that Hayes was aged, feeble, and no longer able to discern proper judgment at the age of 65; and two, that he was not granted any type of consideration due to his long tenure and success at OSU?

Do you not see how silly your POV is? The football head coach at OSU, the man whom many emulated, admired and respected, crossed a line that cannot EVER be crossed by a head coach (it's perfectly okay to get blow jobs in the WH by a sitting president, but I digress).

[dandi]

Come on, now, sir; surely one has different expectations, different standards, for a parent who's 40 years old, as compared with a parent who's 80 years old.

No, I don't, and don't call me Shirley.

 

If anything, I expect the 80 year old parent to act less like the child than a 40 year old parent.

[Rebel]

Sorry, but this is bull.  I have spent too many years as a leader to accept any excuse for shit behavior.

Woody Hayes was a punk, an old punk to be sure, but a punk regardless for that incident.  A head coach is the face and standard bearer for the team; no excuses, no forgiveness.

If you take it upon yourself as the face and standard bearer for a group to act like a punk, then your group will act like punks.

This. Never saw Holtz, JoePa, Bowden, Bear, Neiland, Vaught, or any of the other legends doing this shit.

[franksolich]

No, I don't, and don't call me Shirley.

 

If anything, I expect the 80 year old parent to act less like the child than a 40 year old parent.

This is an argument that's been going on for thirty years now; I realize that I long ago lost in the court of public opinion, but one carries on the good fight to the end.

In the analogy of the parents, which I gave incompletely, a 40-year-old parent who hits someone is probably a bully.  An 80-year-old parent who hits someone is probably afflicted with dementia of some sort.  The motives are different, and so the reaction needs to be different.

Woody Hayes was neither a middle-aged man or a senescent invalid, but somewhere in between the two.

I don't think it was necessary to have fired him.  A slap on the wrist, "hey, that's not cool, don't do it again," and given his nature and underrated humility, he probably would have resigned a few days later anyway, and been able to live out the rest of his days chastened but still a hero for all that he had accomplished the decades up to this unfortunate lapse of character, this possible cerebral-vascular accident.

One doesn't need to slap an old man around; age does that on its own.

[franksolich]

Again, are you trying to say these things, one, that Hayes was aged, feeble, and no longer able to discern proper judgment at the age of 65; and two, that he was not granted any type of consideration due to his long tenure and success at OSU?

What I'm saying is because of his age, even if 65 isn't that old, he was perhaps more susceptible to lapses in judgement, than he had been when he was younger.  I suspect because of the intense pressures of football coaching, one actually ages faster than his years (which can be noticed with Tom Osborne), and so while Woody Hayes was 65 in chronological years, the wear-and-tear of the job made him more like, say 75 or more.

I don't see where he was granted any consideration for all his contributions to Ohio State, and Ohio State football.  He was fired.  Boom.  Right away.  Immediately kicked out the door.  (Or at least that's the way I recall it.)

Far far better had it been if the Board of Regents had said, "Hey, you screwed up.  It's not cool.  Don't do it again."  After which the inevitable--a few days of contemplation, and Woody Hayes would've retired on his own.

Do you not see how silly your POV is? The football head coach at OSU, the man whom many emulated, admired and respected, crossed a line that cannot EVER be crossed by a head coach (it's perfectly okay to get blow jobs in the WH by a sitting president, but I digress).

I'm sure that line's been crossed many times by a head coach; we had one such instance a few years ago, when Nebraska then-coach Bill Callahan assaulted an Oklahoma player.  Caught on television and everything.

However, I'm also aware that "everybody else does it" is NO excuse.

[dandi]

In the analogy of the parents, which I gave incompletely, a 40-year-old parent who hits someone is probably a bully.  An 80-year-old parent who hits someone is probably afflicted with dementia of some sort.  The motives are different, and so the reaction needs to be different.

Then, by that standard, Mr Hayes needed to be relieved of his command long before he had an opportunity to embarrass himself, his team, school, city, and state.  If his age had warped him to the degree of dementia, he had no business being there in the first place.

I don't think it was necessary to have fired him.  A slap on the wrist, "hey, that's not cool, don't do it again," and given his nature and underrated humility, he probably would have resigned a few days later anyway, and been able to live out the rest of his days chastened but still a hero for all that he had accomplished the decades up to this unfortunate lapse of character, this possible cerebral-vascular accident.

Interesting.....

[franksolich]

Then, by that standard, Mr Hayes needed to be relieved of his command long before he had an opportunity to embarrass himself, his team, school, city, and state.  If his age had warped him to the degree of dementia, he had no business being there in the first place.

That's true; when one starts to slip, it's a good time to quit.

But of course that goes against human nature and the human ego.

[dandi]

But of course that goes against human nature and the human ego.

So does making excuses for bad behavior.  

[Eupher]

What I'm saying is because of his age, even if 65 isn't that old, he was perhaps more susceptible to lapses in judgement, than he had been when he was younger.  I suspect because of the intense pressures of football coaching, one actually ages faster than his years (which can be noticed with Tom Osborne), and so while Woody Hayes was 65 in chronological years, the wear-and-tear of the job made him more like, say 75 or more.

Wasp's comment is spot on. He shouldn't have been there if he was so mentally infirm that he didn't have the sense not to assault an opposing player.

I don't see where he was granted any consideration for all his contributions to Ohio State, and Ohio State football.  He was fired.  Boom.  Right away.  Immediately kicked out the door.  (Or at least that's the way I recall it.)

Neither one of us was there when the incident happened and the decision was made, so we don't really know what was considered and what wasn't. I have to assume, however, that Hayes' long, illustrious career with OSU was given SOME kind of consideration. Not to do so would have been illogical and likely ill-considered. You just don't shitcan legends without carefully evaluating the evidence and the situation.

Far far better had it been if the Board of Regents had said, "Hey, you screwed up.  It's not cool.  Don't do it again."  After which the inevitable--a few days of contemplation, and Woody Hayes would've retired on his own.

Sheer speculation on your part, Frank. You have no idea what Hayes would have done.

I'm sure that line's been crossed many times by a head coach; we had one such instance a few years ago, when Nebraska then-coach Bill Callahan assaulted an Oklahoma player.  Caught on television and everything.

However, I'm also aware that "everybody else does it" is NO excuse.

that's the first thing you've said in this post that actually makes sense. I'm truly stunned, Frank. For a straight-up, gracious, and accommodating fellow, your own judgment is clouded a great deal by this incident.

Hayes was fired for all the right reasons. Period. Whether his assault on that Clemson player was borne of frustration, anxiety, rage, dementia, or just plain crankiness, he had to go.

[franksolich]

So does making excuses for bad behavior.   

Well, maybe, perhaps.

I lost this argument a long time ago--about five minutes after it first started more than thirty years ago--but damn it, I stick by my man.  The only college football coach greater than Woody Hayes was Bear Bryant.