Author Topic: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks  (Read 6546 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« on: September 26, 2008, 11:50:01 AM »
Quote
Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) -- The Foreign Ministry says pirates have seized a Ukrainian-operated ship off Somalia.

The ministry says the Faina was sailing with 21 people on board under the Belize flag, though it is operated by Ukrainian managing company Tomax Team Inc.

The ministry says in a statement that the ship's captain reported being surrounded by three boats of armed men Thursday afternoon.

The ship's passengers include 17 Ukrainian citizens including the captain, as well as three Russians and one Latvian citizen.

The ministry had no information on the ship's cargo. But the Interfax news agency cited an unnamed source as saying the ship was loaded with about 30 T-72 tanks and spare parts for them.

Too short to truncate
LINK

Great; the terrorists now have (another?) battalion of tanks.
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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2008, 12:31:37 PM »
Quote
Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) -- The Foreign Ministry says pirates have seized a Ukrainian-operated ship off Somalia.

The ministry says the Faina was sailing with 21 people on board under the Belize flag, though it is operated by Ukrainian managing company Tomax Team Inc.

The ministry says in a statement that the ship's captain reported being surrounded by three boats of armed men Thursday afternoon.

The ship's passengers include 17 Ukrainian citizens including the captain, as well as three Russians and one Latvian citizen.

The ministry had no information on the ship's cargo. But the Interfax news agency cited an unnamed source as saying the ship was loaded with about 30 T-72 tanks and spare parts for them.

Too short to truncate
LINK

Great; the terrorists now have (another?) battalion of tanks.

Methinks that the Russian military won't take too "kindly" to this.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2008, 12:39:04 PM »
Quote
Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) -- The Foreign Ministry says pirates have seized a Ukrainian-operated ship off Somalia.

The ministry says the Faina was sailing with 21 people on board under the Belize flag, though it is operated by Ukrainian managing company Tomax Team Inc.

The ministry says in a statement that the ship's captain reported being surrounded by three boats of armed men Thursday afternoon.

The ship's passengers include 17 Ukrainian citizens including the captain, as well as three Russians and one Latvian citizen.

The ministry had no information on the ship's cargo. But the Interfax news agency cited an unnamed source as saying the ship was loaded with about 30 T-72 tanks and spare parts for them.

Too short to truncate
LINK

Great; the terrorists now have (another?) battalion of tanks.



Methinks that the Russian military won't take too "kindly" to this.

I have no evidence to back me up on this, but I'm not so sure - after their Treaty with the Iranians - that this isn't the Russians version of Lend/Lease.
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2008, 01:42:15 PM »
Quote
Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) -- The Foreign Ministry says pirates have seized a Ukrainian-operated ship off Somalia.

The ministry says the Faina was sailing with 21 people on board under the Belize flag, though it is operated by Ukrainian managing company Tomax Team Inc.

The ministry says in a statement that the ship's captain reported being surrounded by three boats of armed men Thursday afternoon.

The ship's passengers include 17 Ukrainian citizens including the captain, as well as three Russians and one Latvian citizen.

The ministry had no information on the ship's cargo. But the Interfax news agency cited an unnamed source as saying the ship was loaded with about 30 T-72 tanks and spare parts for them.

Too short to truncate
LINK

Great; the terrorists now have (another?) battalion of tanks.



Methinks that the Russian military won't take too "kindly" to this.

I have no evidence to back me up on this, but I'm not so sure - after their Treaty with the Iranians - that this isn't the Russians version of Lend/Lease.

or the ukrainian version, since its a ukrainian ship. The ukrainians sell off lots of weapons as well.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2008, 03:53:38 PM »
The Ukraine doesn't FART without Moscow's direct okay to do so in triplicate, especially after they saw what happened when Georgia got uppity with regards to the holy mind and will of the Kremlin.
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2008, 04:23:23 PM »
The Ukraine doesn't FART without Moscow's direct okay to do so in triplicate, especially after they saw what happened when Georgia got uppity with regards to the holy mind and will of the Kremlin.

yes, they do.  If not, then yushenko woudn't talk about joining nato.  They also woudn't restrict (or attempt to restrict) russian ships from leaving sevastopol.  Ukrainian equipment has fought against russian equipment in wars in africa. 
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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2008, 04:31:14 PM »
The Ukraine doesn't FART without Moscow's direct okay to do so in triplicate, especially after they saw what happened when Georgia got uppity with regards to the holy mind and will of the Kremlin.

yes, they do.  If not, then yushenko woudn't talk about joining nato.  They also woudn't restrict (or attempt to restrict) russian ships from leaving sevastopol.  Ukrainian equipment has fought against russian equipment in wars in africa. 


Not only that, the Ukraine has a fair number of Soviet nukes.   The Russians know this.  The Ukranians could make Russia burn if they were threatened by Russia (at the loss of a significant portion of their people), and Russia won't do what they did to Georgia.  Georgia didn't have anything to be able to stop the Russian Army, though their air-defense units did pretty well against the Russian Air Force.
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2008, 04:50:43 PM »
The Ukraine doesn't FART without Moscow's direct okay to do so in triplicate, especially after they saw what happened when Georgia got uppity with regards to the holy mind and will of the Kremlin.

yes, they do.  If not, then yushenko woudn't talk about joining nato.  They also woudn't restrict (or attempt to restrict) russian ships from leaving sevastopol.  Ukrainian equipment has fought against russian equipment in wars in africa. 


Not only that, the Ukraine has a fair number of Soviet nukes.   The Russians know this.  The Ukranians could make Russia burn if they were threatened by Russia (at the loss of a significant portion of their people), and Russia won't do what they did to Georgia.  Georgia didn't have anything to be able to stop the Russian Army, though their air-defense units did pretty well against the Russian Air Force.

they gave up those nukes over 10 years ago...
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2008, 05:21:03 PM »
Because of Russia's assault on Georgia, Ukraine has tripled its defense budget and is on full-court press to join NATO.   

Ukraine's defense buget = $6 billion
Russia = $37 billion
United States =  $700 billion

Who do you think the US would be "sympathetic" with if Russia started a pissing match with Ukraine?    Poland, Baltic states, Germany -- none would be too thrilled if Russia picked on the Ukraine next. 

Who do you think is going to blink first?


Next.   

Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2008, 05:31:19 PM »
Because of Russia's assault on Georgia, Ukraine has tripled its defense budget and is on full-court press to join NATO.   

Ukraine's defense buget = $6 billion
Russia = $37 billion
United States =  $700 billion

Who do you think the US would be "sympathetic" with if Russia started a pissing match with Ukraine?    Poland, Baltic states, Germany -- none would be too thrilled if Russia picked on the Ukraine next. 

Who do you think is going to blink first?

Next.   

the pro nato government is about to lose power, since yushchenko has called for early elections..
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2008, 06:08:22 PM »
Because of Russia's assault on Georgia, Ukraine has tripled its defense budget and is on full-court press to join NATO.   

Ukraine's defense buget = $6 billion
Russia = $37 billion
United States =  $700 billion

Who do you think the US would be "sympathetic" with if Russia started a pissing match with Ukraine?    Poland, Baltic states, Germany -- none would be too thrilled if Russia picked on the Ukraine next. 

Who do you think is going to blink first?

Next.   

the pro nato government is about to lose power, since yushchenko has called for early elections..

When you can't find a source of information outside of Russian media, AP, Reuters to ascertain what the sentiments are you really cannot make assumptions on how the election will turn out.  

Georgia has the Ukrainian people on edge, so I highly doubt that a Russian apologist is actually going to win.  

Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2008, 07:02:18 PM »
Because of Russia's assault on Georgia, Ukraine has tripled its defense budget and is on full-court press to join NATO.   

Ukraine's defense buget = $6 billion
Russia = $37 billion
United States =  $700 billion

Who do you think the US would be "sympathetic" with if Russia started a pissing match with Ukraine?    Poland, Baltic states, Germany -- none would be too thrilled if Russia picked on the Ukraine next. 

Who do you think is going to blink first?

Next.   

the pro nato government is about to lose power, since yushchenko has called for early elections..

When you can't find a source of information outside of Russian media, AP, Reuters to ascertain what the sentiments are you really cannot make assumptions on how the election will turn out.  

Georgia has the Ukrainian people on edge, so I highly doubt that a Russian apologist is actually going to win.  
why do you think the pro nato coalition in power collapsed?
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yes snuggly bunny, i voted for RON PAUL.

Mr.Mann is obsessed with me.

Offline Airwolf

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2008, 09:08:23 PM »
Quote
Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) -- The Foreign Ministry says pirates have seized a Ukrainian-operated ship off Somalia.

The ministry says the Faina was sailing with 21 people on board under the Belize flag, though it is operated by Ukrainian managing company Tomax Team Inc.

The ministry says in a statement that the ship's captain reported being surrounded by three boats of armed men Thursday afternoon.

The ship's passengers include 17 Ukrainian citizens including the captain, as well as three Russians and one Latvian citizen.

The ministry had no information on the ship's cargo. But the Interfax news agency cited an unnamed source as saying the ship was loaded with about 30 T-72 tanks and spare parts for them.

Too short to truncate
LINK

Great; the terrorists now have (another?) battalion of tanks.

Methinks that the Russian military won't take too "kindly" to this.

The Ukrain and Russia are no longer the same country. Otherwise the Ukraine wouldn't have to give back some of those neat toys the Russians sold them years ago.
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2008, 07:25:32 AM »
Because of Russia's assault on Georgia, Ukraine has tripled its defense budget and is on full-court press to join NATO.   

Ukraine's defense buget = $6 billion
Russia = $37 billion
United States =  $700 billion

Who do you think the US would be "sympathetic" with if Russia started a pissing match with Ukraine?    Poland, Baltic states, Germany -- none would be too thrilled if Russia picked on the Ukraine next. 

Who do you think is going to blink first?

Next.   

the pro nato government is about to lose power, since yushchenko has called for early elections..

When you can't find a source of information outside of Russian media, AP, Reuters to ascertain what the sentiments are you really cannot make assumptions on how the election will turn out.  

Georgia has the Ukrainian people on edge, so I highly doubt that a Russian apologist is actually going to win.  
why do you think the pro nato coalition in power collapsed?

In power?   nah.    The parliament has a communist-kremlin-loving majority.  With its ring-leader the Bill Clinton of Ukraine in that she talks the talk of what the people of Ukraine want to hear, while making nice with Putin so Russia ensures her win in December.   

That is certainly not the will of the people.   It is corrupt politics 101.   The people want to forge a relationship with the EU, join NATO and kick start their economy.   

It ain't over by a long shot.


Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2008, 09:56:03 AM »
Because of Russia's assault on Georgia, Ukraine has tripled its defense budget and is on full-court press to join NATO.   

Ukraine's defense buget = $6 billion
Russia = $37 billion
United States =  $700 billion

Who do you think the US would be "sympathetic" with if Russia started a pissing match with Ukraine?    Poland, Baltic states, Germany -- none would be too thrilled if Russia picked on the Ukraine next. 

Who do you think is going to blink first?

Next.   

the pro nato government is about to lose power, since yushchenko has called for early elections..

When you can't find a source of information outside of Russian media, AP, Reuters to ascertain what the sentiments are you really cannot make assumptions on how the election will turn out.  

Georgia has the Ukrainian people on edge, so I highly doubt that a Russian apologist is actually going to win.  
why do you think the pro nato coalition in power collapsed?

In power?   nah.    The parliament has a communist-kremlin-loving majority.  With its ring-leader the Bill Clinton of Ukraine in that she talks the talk of what the people of Ukraine want to hear, while making nice with Putin so Russia ensures her win in December.   

That is certainly not the will of the people.   It is corrupt politics 101.   The people want to forge a relationship with the EU, join NATO and kick start their economy.   

It ain't over by a long shot.



thats where you are wrong... polls indicate that over 50% of the population does not want to join nato.  And Tymoshenko, that "bill clinton of ukraine", said this: Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, seen here on September 8, 2008, on Wednesday ruled out Russia's … KIEV (AFP) – Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko on Wednesday ruled out Russia's Black Sea fleet staying in Ukraine after its lease ends in 2017, a day after Moscow voiced interest in keeping it there longer. 
http://news.yahoo.com/story//afp/20080924/wl_afp/ukrainerussiadefencediplomacy

not exactly "communist, kremlin loving" now, is it?

here is some poll info btw

http://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/2007/07/25/ukrainians-shun-nato-support-ties-with-russia/
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 09:58:10 AM by JohnMatrix »
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2008, 12:22:58 PM »

In power?   nah.    The parliament has a communist-kremlin-loving majority.  With its ring-leader the Bill Clinton of Ukraine in that she talks the talk of what the people of Ukraine want to hear, while making nice with Putin so Russia ensures her win in December.   

That is certainly not the will of the people.   It is corrupt politics 101.   The people want to forge a relationship with the EU, join NATO and kick start their economy.   

It ain't over by a long shot.



Have fun with him on this one FL.  John Matrix is our defender of all things USSR.

And in his own mind he's ALWAYS right.
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2008, 01:23:39 PM »

In power?   nah.    The parliament has a communist-kremlin-loving majority.  With its ring-leader the Bill Clinton of Ukraine in that she talks the talk of what the people of Ukraine want to hear, while making nice with Putin so Russia ensures her win in December.   

That is certainly not the will of the people.   It is corrupt politics 101.   The people want to forge a relationship with the EU, join NATO and kick start their economy.   

It ain't over by a long shot.



Have fun with him on this one FL.  John Matrix is our defender of all things USSR.

And in his own mind he's ALWAYS right.

I posted sources trg, I know you can't resist the ad-hominem, but try to actually look at them.  While you're at it, tell me where i'm wrong.

A good rule of thumb is "those who cannot debate, defame"
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 03:54:04 PM by JohnMatrix »
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2008, 03:54:35 PM »
Quote
Yushchenko's party, which wants to forge closer ties with the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, quit the coalition on Sept. 3, after Timoshenko's bloc teamed up with the pro-Russian opposition to strip the president of some powers. The parties had 10 days to re-unite.

``A pro-Kremlin parliamentary majority has been de facto formed by Timoshenko's alliance and the Party of Regions'' led by former Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, said Vyacheslav Kyrylenko, a member of Yushchenko's Our Ukraine party. ``Our Ukraine has no other choice but to officially announce it is now in opposition.''


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=arxd209BuhWY&refer=europe

I wonder why Timoshenko would make such a statement on the use of their ports... oh, my bad:

Quote
Ukrainian officials warned Russia on Thursday not to encourage separatist groups in Ukraine and insisted that Russian military ships will have to leave the Black Sea base of Sevastopol when Russia's lease expires.

The comments revealed the deep tensions between Ukraine and its neighbor to the north following Russia's war with Georgia in August.

Ukraine fears that Moscow may try to encourage a separatist movement on the Black Sea peninsula of Crimea, which hosts Russia's Black Sea fleet.

Russian and Ukrainian diplomats met in Kiev for the latest round of talks on the future of the Russian Black Sea fleet, stationed at Sevastopol on a lease agreement until 2017.

Moscow has insisted it does not want to leave the strategic port and has offered to pay more to continue using it. But Defense Minister Yury Yekhanurov remained firm, saying the deal will not be extended after 2017.

"Come that year and Ukraine will be left without foreign bases on its territory," he told reporters Thursday.

Meanwhile, Marina Ostapenko, a spokeswoman for Ukraine's Security Service, said the government will resist attempts by Russian extremists to recruit Ukrainians to their separatist cause.

Russia's recognition of the Georgian rebel regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states following a war last month has only stoked those fears. Crimea long belonged to the Russian empire and the majority of Crimeans are ethnic Russians, many of whom feel close to Moscow.

Ostapenko accused Russian special services of backing extremist groups in Georgia's breakaway regions and Moldova's separatist province of Trans-Dniester and vowed that Ukraine would not allow such activities.

"We will not allow for our citizens to be dragged into such things and their expansion in Ukraine," Ukraine's Security Service chief Valentyn Nalyvaychenko said at a news conference.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iuG-1AWCQ_aPSNfCAlDvtxx54j7gD93DQRO80

Of course, 2017 is not exactly tomorrow is it?  actually it isn't December, or anytime next year which will be when the new elections will be held:

Quote
Russia has asked Ukrainian authorities to refrain from discussing the expiration date of the deployment of Russia's Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine in 2017.

"Today, we cannot find a solution that will suit both parties. We ask the Ukrainian side to postpone [negotiations] on the matter. It is early to discuss this issue for certain reasons," the Russian Foreign Ministry's Ambassador at Large Vladimir Dorokhin said during a television link-up on Friday

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews+articleid_2655850.html


Nothing to see here people.   No worries -- we have plenty of time to fix this election so things go our way.    :-)









Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2008, 04:34:24 PM »
Quote
Yushchenko's party, which wants to forge closer ties with the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, quit the coalition on Sept. 3, after Timoshenko's bloc teamed up with the pro-Russian opposition to strip the president of some powers. The parties had 10 days to re-unite.

``A pro-Kremlin parliamentary majority has been de facto formed by Timoshenko's alliance and the Party of Regions'' led by former Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, said Vyacheslav Kyrylenko, a member of Yushchenko's Our Ukraine party. ``Our Ukraine has no other choice but to officially announce it is now in opposition.''


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=arxd209BuhWY&refer=europe

I wonder why Timoshenko would make such a statement on the use of their ports... oh, my bad:

Quote
Ukrainian officials warned Russia on Thursday not to encourage separatist groups in Ukraine and insisted that Russian military ships will have to leave the Black Sea base of Sevastopol when Russia's lease expires.

The comments revealed the deep tensions between Ukraine and its neighbor to the north following Russia's war with Georgia in August.

Ukraine fears that Moscow may try to encourage a separatist movement on the Black Sea peninsula of Crimea, which hosts Russia's Black Sea fleet.

Russian and Ukrainian diplomats met in Kiev for the latest round of talks on the future of the Russian Black Sea fleet, stationed at Sevastopol on a lease agreement until 2017.

Moscow has insisted it does not want to leave the strategic port and has offered to pay more to continue using it. But Defense Minister Yury Yekhanurov remained firm, saying the deal will not be extended after 2017.

"Come that year and Ukraine will be left without foreign bases on its territory," he told reporters Thursday.

Meanwhile, Marina Ostapenko, a spokeswoman for Ukraine's Security Service, said the government will resist attempts by Russian extremists to recruit Ukrainians to their separatist cause.

Russia's recognition of the Georgian rebel regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states following a war last month has only stoked those fears. Crimea long belonged to the Russian empire and the majority of Crimeans are ethnic Russians, many of whom feel close to Moscow.

Ostapenko accused Russian special services of backing extremist groups in Georgia's breakaway regions and Moldova's separatist province of Trans-Dniester and vowed that Ukraine would not allow such activities.

"We will not allow for our citizens to be dragged into such things and their expansion in Ukraine," Ukraine's Security Service chief Valentyn Nalyvaychenko said at a news conference.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iuG-1AWCQ_aPSNfCAlDvtxx54j7gD93DQRO80

Of course, 2017 is not exactly tomorrow is it?  actually it isn't December, or anytime next year which will be when the new elections will be held:

Quote
Russia has asked Ukrainian authorities to refrain from discussing the expiration date of the deployment of Russia's Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine in 2017.

"Today, we cannot find a solution that will suit both parties. We ask the Ukrainian side to postpone [negotiations] on the matter. It is early to discuss this issue for certain reasons," the Russian Foreign Ministry's Ambassador at Large Vladimir Dorokhin said during a television link-up on Friday

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews+articleid_2655850.html


Nothing to see here people.   No worries -- we have plenty of time to fix this election so things go our way.    :-)

So care to explain why the people of Ukraine want to join Nato badly? even when all polls suggest otherwise?
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2008, 06:06:28 PM »
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Under these circumstances, we must assume that Ukraine's president has got the maximum he possibly could amid these dark prospects. But this result is very disappointing," says Alexei Kolomiets, president of the independent Center for European and Transatlantic Studies in Kiev. "I have no doubt that Ukraine's political crisis is being organized from outside, and the team that's directing this turmoil is sitting in the Kremlin," he added.

Ukraine's location between Russia and Poland and its 45-million-strong population, 1 in 6 of whom are Russian, gives it terrific value to Moscow. Yet after Georgia, the EU is opting for an exchange with Ukraine and Georgia through economic aid and outreach. For example, a Polish-Swedish initiative to create an eastern European neighborhood policy has been revitalized, with an underlying assumption that the best way to confront Moscow is by helping Ukraine develop. Similar efforts are being worked on assiduously in Poland, the Baltics, and Sweden with the support of France and Britain.

Russia's venture into Georgia has solidified the European view that Moscow no longer wishes to be a "transitional" power aiming to integrate with Western systems and norms. But Ukraine does see itself as a transitional power, says Anne de Tinguy, a Russian-Ukrainian expert at Sciences Po in Paris.


http://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/2007/07/25/ukrainians-shun-nato-support-ties-with-russia/


Well for starters, by joining NATO they could stand independent from Russia and would be safe from invasion.   It would also certainly solidify their move toward joining the EU as it would bring a political stability they just don't have at this time. 

Joining the EU would crack their economy wide open -- as would kicking the Russians out of their ports within the decade.   

As for your poll figures:

Quote
On 24 July, Interfax Ukraine cited the results of the most recent survey conducted by the Yaremenko Ukrainian Institute of Social Research and the “Social Monitoring” Center between 10 and 18 July. It is based on 2,014 respondents over the age of 18, residing in 132 cities and villages in all regions of Ukraine, and has a margin of error of 1.34-2.24%.


In a country of 45 million, they pick 15 people from 132 villages and that is supposed to be accurate?   Every article written on this topic points to this particular survey, which makes no sense given the age of it.   

Russia goes after Georgia, the Ukranians are fearful they will be next, yet we are supposed to believe they support the Kremlin's position on their joining NATO? 

Save for a few Russian loyalists, are you kidding me right now?




Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2008, 07:43:12 PM »
Quote
Under these circumstances, we must assume that Ukraine's president has got the maximum he possibly could amid these dark prospects. But this result is very disappointing," says Alexei Kolomiets, president of the independent Center for European and Transatlantic Studies in Kiev. "I have no doubt that Ukraine's political crisis is being organized from outside, and the team that's directing this turmoil is sitting in the Kremlin," he added.

Ukraine's location between Russia and Poland and its 45-million-strong population, 1 in 6 of whom are Russian, gives it terrific value to Moscow. Yet after Georgia, the EU is opting for an exchange with Ukraine and Georgia through economic aid and outreach. For example, a Polish-Swedish initiative to create an eastern European neighborhood policy has been revitalized, with an underlying assumption that the best way to confront Moscow is by helping Ukraine develop. Similar efforts are being worked on assiduously in Poland, the Baltics, and Sweden with the support of France and Britain.

Russia's venture into Georgia has solidified the European view that Moscow no longer wishes to be a "transitional" power aiming to integrate with Western systems and norms. But Ukraine does see itself as a transitional power, says Anne de Tinguy, a Russian-Ukrainian expert at Sciences Po in Paris.


http://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/2007/07/25/ukrainians-shun-nato-support-ties-with-russia/


Well for starters, by joining NATO they could stand independent from Russia and would be safe from invasion.   It would also certainly solidify their move toward joining the EU as it would bring a political stability they just don't have at this time. 

Joining the EU would crack their economy wide open -- as would kicking the Russians out of their ports within the decade.   

As for your poll figures:

Quote
On 24 July, Interfax Ukraine cited the results of the most recent survey conducted by the Yaremenko Ukrainian Institute of Social Research and the “Social Monitoring” Center between 10 and 18 July. It is based on 2,014 respondents over the age of 18, residing in 132 cities and villages in all regions of Ukraine, and has a margin of error of 1.34-2.24%.


In a country of 45 million, they pick 15 people from 132 villages and that is supposed to be accurate?   Every article written on this topic points to this particular survey, which makes no sense given the age of it.   

Russia goes after Georgia, the Ukranians are fearful they will be next, yet we are supposed to believe they support the Kremlin's position on their joining NATO? 

Save for a few Russian loyalists, are you kidding me right now?
...you want them to poll every person in the country? 

Your first quote is not at the link you posted.
Yes, that poll is supposed to be accurate.  Here is a Gallup poll from Ukraine: http://www.gallup.com/poll/104356/Ukrainians-See-More-Value-Ties-Russia-Than-US.aspx
At the bottom it says: "
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Results are based on face-to-face interviews conducted in April-July 2007, with 1,066 adults, aged 15 and older, in Ukraine. For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ±3 percentage points. In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls."
  Is this poll also wrong, simply because "only" 1,066 people were polled?  The Gallup polls used to say who's ahead in the Presidential race use 1-3 thousand people.  Are those polls wrong because not enough people are being polled?

Here is another poll on how the Ukrainians saw the Georgian Conflict: http://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/2008/09/
Quote
Ultimately, a president needs to reflect the sentiments of the public. Yushchenko’s avowed pro-Georgian, pro-NATO, and increasingly anti-Russian policies do not have overwhelming support in Ukraine. In fact they serve to highlight the regional divisions. On Georgia especially a consensus is plainly lacking.

Thus an August poll conducted by the Razumkov Center asked a sampling of respondents in the different regions of Ukraine which country they perceived as the aggressor in the Russian-Georgian conflict (a question that would have received a unanimous verdict in neighboring Poland). In western Ukraine, 55.2% saw Russia in this role, 15.1% both countries, and 7% Georgia. The center was evenly divided. However, Eastern Ukraine perceived Georgia as the main aggressor (37.2% to 13.8%), and in southern Ukraine almost 57% maintained the same, with only 13.8% citing Russia.
Here is another poll regarding nato from the same piece:
Quote
Though the same Center’s webpage does not offer a recent poll on NATO membership, a June 2008 survey indicated that 60% of respondents opposed it, with 20.9% in favor. Incidentally in June 2002, according to this same source, 32% supported accession to NATO.


But I guess all these are wrong, because all Ukrainians want to be in NATO, right?
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2008, 08:03:22 PM »
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Joining the alliance has featured on Ukraine's political agenda since 2002, when then-President Leonid Kuchma and Prime Minister Victor Yanukovych provided initial momentum. In 2004, the Yanukovych government adopted an official strategy aimed at joining in 2008. But the issue quickly bogged down in domestic tussles over whether to hold a national referendum on NATO membership. Such a vote has been championed by the current opposition coalition, led by none other than Yanukovych. His Party of the Regions, the dominant partner in the opposition coalition-it actually received the most votes of any individual party in the most recent parliamentary elections in September 2007-blocked all work in the parliament for several weeks in early 2008 until the government agreed to the referendum idea.

This fractious situation became more strained after 12 February 2008, when Russian President Vladimir Putin threatened to aim nuclear warheads at Ukraine if it ever should deploy NATO missiles on its territory. This provoked a fiercely critical response from U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who called the threat "reprehensible" and "unacceptable." Given the high political stakes, Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko is choosing to move cautiously.

The date of your Gallop (nonsense) poll is when exactly?    Given the makeup of Ukraine, a legitimate poll would indeed have to entail questioning a quite a large segment of the population which would expand over the entire country.   

Quote
Joining the alliance has featured on Ukraine's political agenda since 2002, when then-President Leonid Kuchma and Prime Minister Victor Yanukovych provided initial momentum. In 2004, the Yanukovych government adopted an official strategy aimed at joining in 2008. But the issue quickly bogged down in domestic tussles over whether to hold a national referendum on NATO membership. Such a vote has been championed by the current opposition coalition, led by none other than Yanukovych. His Party of the Regions, the dominant partner in the opposition coalition-it actually received the most votes of any individual party in the most recent parliamentary elections in September 2007-blocked all work in the parliament for several weeks in early 2008 until the government agreed to the referendum idea.

http://www.audiencescapes.org/component,8/action,show_content/id,40/

How can that be if the overwhelming majority of Ukranians are against joining NATO? 


The dates of your polls, the wording of the findings "disagree somewhat or strongly", the amount of population sampled -- all should cause you to take pause and question their worth.   It doesn't however and you are the only one who can explain that.





Offline TheSarge

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2008, 08:15:49 PM »
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Save for a few Russian loyalists, are you kidding me right now?

Sadly...no he's not.
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2008, 08:25:15 PM »
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Joining the alliance has featured on Ukraine's political agenda since 2002, when then-President Leonid Kuchma and Prime Minister Victor Yanukovych provided initial momentum. In 2004, the Yanukovych government adopted an official strategy aimed at joining in 2008. But the issue quickly bogged down in domestic tussles over whether to hold a national referendum on NATO membership. Such a vote has been championed by the current opposition coalition, led by none other than Yanukovych. His Party of the Regions, the dominant partner in the opposition coalition-it actually received the most votes of any individual party in the most recent parliamentary elections in September 2007-blocked all work in the parliament for several weeks in early 2008 until the government agreed to the referendum idea.

This fractious situation became more strained after 12 February 2008, when Russian President Vladimir Putin threatened to aim nuclear warheads at Ukraine if it ever should deploy NATO missiles on its territory. This provoked a fiercely critical response from U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who called the threat "reprehensible" and "unacceptable." Given the high political stakes, Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko is choosing to move cautiously.

The date of your Gallop (nonsense) poll is when exactly?    Given the makeup of Ukraine, a legitimate poll would indeed have to entail questioning a quite a large segment of the population which would expand over the entire country.   

Quote
Joining the alliance has featured on Ukraine's political agenda since 2002, when then-President Leonid Kuchma and Prime Minister Victor Yanukovych provided initial momentum. In 2004, the Yanukovych government adopted an official strategy aimed at joining in 2008. But the issue quickly bogged down in domestic tussles over whether to hold a national referendum on NATO membership. Such a vote has been championed by the current opposition coalition, led by none other than Yanukovych. His Party of the Regions, the dominant partner in the opposition coalition-it actually received the most votes of any individual party in the most recent parliamentary elections in September 2007-blocked all work in the parliament for several weeks in early 2008 until the government agreed to the referendum idea.

http://www.audiencescapes.org/component,8/action,show_content/id,40/

How can that be if the overwhelming majority of Ukranians are against joining NATO? 


The dates of your polls, the wording of the findings "disagree somewhat or strongly", the amount of population sampled -- all should cause you to take pause and question their worth.
   It doesn't however and you are the only one who can explain that.




The Gallup poll was simply an example that demonstrated that polls never really sample the amount of people you seem to want them to sample.  It seems as though you want a poll of a huge percentage of the population, and if that it not done, then the poll isn't reliable.  Of course, I stated that in my previous post.

Yanukovych got that many votes for one simple reason.  The people of Ukraine really don't like Yushchenko much anymore.  It wasn't a vote on who wants or doesn't want NATO, since Yushchenko also wants to join it.  

You also seemed to ignore the other polls i posted...
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2008, 08:25:46 PM »
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Save for a few Russian loyalists, are you kidding me right now?

Sadly...no he's not.

come on trg, show us what you know about this situation. 
LadyLiberty does not like my mother because I speak Spanish to her in public.

yes snuggly bunny, i voted for RON PAUL.

Mr.Mann is obsessed with me.