The Conservative Cave
Interests => The Science Club => Topic started by: SSG Snuggle Bunny on July 13, 2010, 05:58:23 PM
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“For me gravity doesn’t exist,†said Dr. Verlinde, who was recently in the United States to explain himself. Not that he can’t fall down, but Dr. Verlinde is among a number of physicists who say that science has been looking at gravity the wrong way and that there is something more basic, from which gravity “emerges,†the way stock markets emerge from the collective behavior of individual investors or that elasticity emerges from the mechanics of atoms.
Looking at gravity from this angle, they say, could shed light on some of the vexing cosmic issues of the day, like the dark energy, a kind of anti-gravity that seems to be speeding up the expansion of the universe, or the dark matter that is supposedly needed to hold galaxies together.
Dr. Verlinde’s argument turns on something you could call the “bad hair day†theory of gravity.
It goes something like this: your hair frizzles in the heat and humidity, because there are more ways for your hair to be curled than to be straight, and nature likes options. So it takes a force to pull hair straight and eliminate nature’s options. Forget curved space or the spooky attraction at a distance described by Isaac Newton’s equations well enough to let us navigate the rings of Saturn, the force we call gravity is simply a byproduct of nature’s propensity to maximize disorder.
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Over the last 30 years gravity has been “undressed,†in Dr. Verlinde’s words, as a fundamental force.
This disrobing began in the 1970s with the discovery by Jacob Bekenstein of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Stephen Hawking of Cambridge University, among others, of a mysterious connection between black holes and thermodynamics, culminating in Dr. Hawking’s discovery in 1974 that when quantum effects are taken into account black holes would glow and eventually explode.
In a provocative calculation in 1995, Ted Jacobson, a theorist from the University of Maryland, showed that given a few of these holographic ideas, Einstein’s equations of general relativity are just a another way of stating the laws of thermodynamics.
Those exploding black holes (at least in theory — none has ever been observed) lit up a new strangeness of nature. Black holes, in effect, are holograms — like the 3-D images you see on bank cards. All the information about what has been lost inside them is encoded on their surfaces. Physicists have been wondering ever since how this “holographic principle†— that we are all maybe just shadows on a distant wall — applies to the universe and where it came from.
In one striking example of a holographic universe, Juan Maldacena of the Institute for Advanced Study constructed a mathematical model of a “soup can†universe, where what happened inside the can, including gravity, is encoded in the label on the outside of the can, where there was no gravity, as well as one less spatial dimension. If dimensions don’t matter and gravity doesn’t matter, how real can they be?
Lee Smolin, a quantum gravity theorist at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, called Dr. Jacobson’s paper “one of the most important papers of the last 20 years.â€
But it received little attention at first, said Thanu Padmanabhan of the Inter-University Center for Astronomy and Astrophysics in Pune, India, who has taken up the subject of “emergent gravity†in several papers over the last few years. Dr. Padmanabhan said that the connection to thermodynamics went deeper that just Einstein’s equations to other theories of gravity. “Gravity,†he said recently in a talk at the Perimeter Institute, “is the thermodynamic limit of the statistical mechanics of “atoms of space-time.â€
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His paper, posted to the physics archive in January, resembles Dr. Jacobson’s in many ways, but Dr. Verlinde bristles when people say he has added nothing new to Dr. Jacobson’s analysis. What is new, he said, is the idea that differences in entropy can be the driving mechanism behind gravity, that gravity is, as he puts it an “entropic force.â€
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13gravity.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
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Ok, this puzzles the hell out of me. How does gravity maximize disorder? Gravity does the opposite, and often. In the bad hair day example, gravity would produce straight hair, not fizzy hair.
It creates ordered systems of large bodies, of galaxies, etc. It creates an ordered situation between radiation pressure expanding outward from star and a star's surface (that is, it guarantees that a star will have a surface).
The rest escapes me entirely.
Well obviously I'm wrong--do you understand this Mr. Bunny?
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Ok, this puzzles the hell out of me. How does gravity maximize disorder? Gravity does the opposite, and often. In the bad hair day example, gravity would produce straight hair, not fizzy hair.
It creates ordered systems of large bodies, of galaxies, etc. It creates an ordered situation between radiation pressure expanding outward from star and a star's surface (that is, it guarantees that a star will have a surface).
The rest escapes me entirely.
Well obviously I'm wrong--do you understand this Mr. Bunny?
All objects within the universe can be thought of separate information systems, sort of how the DNA of your body contains the information that is you, so too does every star, galaxy etc exist because its "information" is ordered. As entropy works on these separate systems they break down but the information is never lost it is simply "reprinted" into the overall fabric of the universe as gravity. I think what Verlinde is saying is: as the universe creates more disorder under the effects of entropy the various individual effects reach a composite effect that we observe on a macro-scale as gravity.
Maybe.
:tongue:
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Ok, this puzzles the hell out of me. How does gravity maximize disorder? Gravity does the opposite, and often. In the bad hair day example, gravity would produce straight hair, not fizzy hair.
It creates ordered systems of large bodies, of galaxies, etc. It creates an ordered situation between radiation pressure expanding outward from star and a star's surface (that is, it guarantees that a star will have a surface).
The rest escapes me entirely.
Well obviously I'm wrong--do you understand this Mr. Bunny?
I wouldn't worry too much about it.......it is the New YorkTimes, again attempting to be erudite and therefore somehow relevant.........
I'll give consideration to this claptrap when:
1. Someone proves Einstein's Theory of General Relativity wrong......and.....
2. I see the math that expresses this "theory".......neither of which exist......
Oh, and I forgot......Dr Stephen Hawking is a "hack"
The "holographic" concept of expressing the effects of gravity on the known universe has some merit when "time" is considered the infinite variable in the quantum manifestation of such effects.......
However:
It goes something like this: your hair frizzles in the heat and humidity, because there are more ways for your hair to be curled than to be straight, and nature likes options. So it takes a force to pull hair straight and eliminate nature's options. Forget curved space or the spooky attraction at a distance described by Isaac Newton’s equations well enough to let us navigate the rings of Saturn, the force we call gravity is simply a byproduct of nature’s propensity to maximize disorder.
Pretty much discredits anything else that might be said about the idea, for wont of a better description.
doc
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Fun thought here, gravity is caused by the spinning objects pulling in what ever is outside it into itself.
The act of gravity holds our moon at a distance not to close but not to far, stabilizes it, and it , the moon does not itself spin creating its own gravity. The moon does have some gravity but that is from its constant movement around earth.
Movement by itself causes some kind of friction, be it static electricity here on earth or out there in the void of space.
Speed is a factor as to the comets and meteors, they move so fast they can get through the gravity of a planet to crash and burn.
One would think that because of the speed the more gravity a meteor would have, pulling in everything around it.
As the mass of the metear increases the more gravity it should build up. The build up of mass will increase its speed.
So for millions of years this rock has been on an orbit around our galaxies building mass and speed, sooner or later the rock will begin to stray from its path due to the change in mass and speed. It will go off course and fly out and go off into empty space OR in some cases hit a larger object and either knock it off course or cause serious problem to a planet.
Speed,movement, the mass make up graviety. So what happens when the object gains too much mass to to keep zooming along and the speed starts to lower due to the mass.? The mass continues to build, the speed is at its limits what now for the rock.?
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Fun thought here, gravity is caused by the spinning objects pulling in what ever is outside it into itself.
Centripetal force.
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It's all about the attraction of iron by natural magnetism. In other words, don't eat leafy green vegetables containing iron and you will weigh less.... :-)
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Gravity is caused by mass, or exists because of mass. Look up "Gravity Well". (for Vesta)
I suppose we should now ignore the Doppler Effect?
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Gravity is caused by mass, or exists because of mass. Look up "Gravity Well". (for Vesta)
I suppose we should now ignore the Doppler Effect?
Doppler Effect: You always look heavier going out than coming in so back out of the room gracefully.
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What I have learned from this thread:
1. Exit a room by backing out.
2. No more spinach.
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What I have learned from this thread:
1. Exit a room by backing out.
2. No more spinach.
Sounds as though you understand JohnnyRebs theory of "Relative Chunkivity".
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Sounds as though you understand JohnnyRebs theory of "Relative Chunkivity".
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
yup.
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Black holes exploding? I gather that theory holds they eventually evaporate, however the mechanism by which this supposedly occurs is a mystery to me, since neither matter nor EM spectrum energy which is limited by the speed of light can escape them. Or do matter and energy somehow turn into gravity itself, rather than it being purely a property of matter, since gravity is all that escapes from the well.
For that matter, is there a speed of gravity, or is it immanent and instantaneous? Lacking the ability to create or destroy significant amounts of matter instantaneously, how could you measure a speed of propagation for gravitational effects?
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For that matter, is there a speed of gravity, or is it immanent and instantaneous?
It is instantaneous. Take a room full of people , have a beautiful woman walk into the room, and almost every man's head will turn in unison. :-)
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It is instantaneous. Take a room full of people , have a beautiful woman walk into the room, and almost every man's head will turn in unison. :-)
That's covered in my theory...It's under "Upper and Lower Limits of Proportional Chunkivity"...better known by the slang phrase "Curved Spaces".
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so what is the explanation for wimmins' sagging boobies?
:-)
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so what is the explanation for wimmins' sagging boobies?
:-)
The spin of the Earth causes a centrifugal outward force from it's center. This causes women boobies to turn away from the center of the earth migrating toward their bellybuttons because they spend to much of their time standing on their heads while mad at men.
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Gravity Doesn't Exist...
OK.
What is holding my feet to the ground then? Wishful thinking or pixie dust?
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All objects within the universe can be thought of separate information systems, sort of how the DNA of your body contains the information that is you, so too does every star, galaxy etc exist because its "information" is ordered. As entropy works on these separate systems they break down but the information is never lost it is simply "reprinted" into the overall fabric of the universe as gravity. I think what Verlinde is saying is: as the universe creates more disorder under the effects of entropy the various individual effects reach a composite effect that we observe on a macro-scale as gravity.
Maybe.
:tongue:
Thanks Mr. Bunny. This actually made some sense.
But then--reasoning backwards--wouldn't this imply that the repulsive force of either dark energy (or spinach) is the product of re-ordering, or diminishment of existing entropy through some kind of gigantic dissipative structure? Which would mean that approximately 70% of the universe is actually undergoing a dynamic process resulting in less entropy and more useful energy? Then, counterintuitively, the emergent force driving the universe/galaxies apart would actually be the result, somehow, of reduced entropy--and it would be winning vs attraction-emerging-from-entropy, based on all observations.
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Well, I'll take my own stab at a summary then:
Everything you think you know is wrong, including the idea that everything you thought you knew was wrong. Physics is a cruel joke, nothing but a cosmic (Literally) variation on the classic 'All Greeks are liars' paradox.
I hope that helps.
:evillaugh:
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Well, I'll take my own stab at a summary then:
Everything you think you know is wrong, including the idea that everything you thought you knew was wrong.
By George, I think you're on to something....you should put in for a grant to study that theory.
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Thanks Mr. Bunny. This actually made some sense.
But then--reasoning backwards--wouldn't this imply that the repulsive force of either dark energy (or spinach) is the product of re-ordering, or diminishment of existing entropy through some kind of gigantic dissipative structure? Which would mean that approximately 70% of the universe is actually undergoing a dynamic process resulting in less entropy and more useful energy? Then, counterintuitively, the emergent force driving the universe/galaxies apart would actually be the result, somehow, of reduced entropy--and it would be winning vs attraction-emerging-from-entropy, based on all observations.
I think [ and now everyone duck and cover ] that most things can be explained just by observation of how earth works.
Example,--
When I was into power or sail boats I missed so much, speed was a factor.
Came the time while driving by the shore I saw a Kayaking class going on in the river. Had to have been 30 kayaks being trained to control their craft.
Not 2 weeks later there was a huge sale on Kayaks up the road and I for no reason went in and bought 2 kayaks with scags.--What was I thinking, hubby would never get in one of those floating garbage cans as he called them as they were built with the same material as a plastic trash buckets.
Poor hubby, he went along with me and we bought the skirts and life vests and launched the darn things in an area that had people around to rescue us.
We got into the boats and 2 feet from shore tested them out, we rocked back and forth to find the water line, the point of tipping, and practiced heading into a wave or boat wake to keep from capsizing.
Next day we took off and without no training headed out to track the shore. CRAZY people that we were but soon found our balance and moved at a crawl.
We found things about the river and how it worked, first time we ended up in a vortex we found we had to paddle backwards to get out, are there vortexes in space.??
From my sailing experiences I knew how to tack against the wind and tide, can this be uses to get from here to there in space.?
Came the time we were worried about sudden thunderstorms and lightning.
We found a solution that helped us stay alive, we both attached small baskets to the front of the Kayak and placed inside our 2 toy dogs with their own life vests.
As we ventured out we kept an eye on their ears. When our dogs began to wiggle their ears we knew we had to make it to shore fast, even if the sky was clear, they were picking up some kind of electrical problem and twice we were just minutes from a big storm and had found shelter on shore.
Once we figure out how earth works, and the reason why, then we can equate the reasons to how space works.
A couple years ago we had a weather blast, a micro blast, go through my neighborhood, the same thing happend at a next town public area. Weird how that worked, reminded me of the blast in Russia that took out miles of forest and all living things.
What causes a rouge wave in the ocean, are there rogue waves of of some sort in space ??
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Thanks Mr. Bunny. This actually made some sense.
But then--reasoning backwards--wouldn't this imply that the repulsive force of either dark energy (or spinach) is the product of re-ordering, or diminishment of existing entropy through some kind of gigantic dissipative structure? Which would mean that approximately 70% of the universe is actually undergoing a dynamic process resulting in less entropy and more useful energy? Then, counterintuitively, the emergent force driving the universe/galaxies apart would actually be the result, somehow, of reduced entropy--and it would be winning vs attraction-emerging-from-entropy, based on all observations.
I would imagine that what is driving the universe outward is the interia of the creative event. i.e. big bang.
From there I would guess-timate that if all things observed are ordered systems of information then the nearly-emergent universe would be hyper-informative. IOW: all information that would become all ordered systems was compressed but still possessed its inherent informational qualities to become said systems. Perhaps disorder sets in immediately after the bang and as gravity becomes a macro-scale phenomenon it works in conjunction with the inherent information.
Imagine looking at a scattering of raw matter, but then imagine seeing that matter order itself into the form of a crystal because that is what its information tells it to do (obviously one day entropy will wear this crystal done to its composite materials...dust-to-dust, if you will). As the matter begins to align itself it takes on structure but where there is no structure there is void. Watching from a (sub-)atomic scale this alignment may very well have the appearance of a repellent force and indeed the mechanics of such processes suggests such things within the chemical interplay.
Maybe.
Or maybe my parents did too much acid in the 60s.
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I would imagine that what is driving the universe outward is the interia of the creative event. i.e. big bang.
From there I would guess-timate that if all things observed are ordered systems of information then the nearly-emergent universe would be hyper-informative. IOW: all information that would become all ordered systems was compressed but still possessed its inherent informational qualities to become said systems. Perhaps disorder sets in immediately after the bang and as gravity becomes a macro-scale phenomenon it works in conjunction with the inherent information.
Imagine looking at a scattering of raw matter, but then imagine seeing that matter order itself into the form of a crystal because that is what its information tells it to do (obviously one day entropy will wear this crystal done to its composite materials...dust-to-dust, if you will). As the matter begins to align itself it takes on structure but where there is no structure there is void. Watching from a (sub-)atomic scale this alignment may very well have the appearance of a repellent force and indeed the mechanics of such processes suggests such things within the chemical interplay.
Maybe.
Or maybe my parents did too much acid in the 60s.
I thought that theory had been discarded several years back?
Entropy ....where the universe becomes unwound, so to speak, colapses back upon itself and BIG BANGS all over again.
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I thought that theory had been discarded several years back?
Entropy ....where the universe becomes unwound, so to speak, colapses back upon itself and BIG BANGS all over again.
Interesting that all out planets are either round or oval.
All spin clock wise except for one that spins about counter clock wise.
Is this the effect of graviety on them, then I think of the magitism on earth and out there ----is there a symbiotic realitionship between them.?
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I thought that theory had been discarded several years back?
Entropy ....where the universe becomes unwound, so to speak, colapses back upon itself and BIG BANGS all over again.
Entropy is observed as the loss of usable energy through the exchange of heat. It diminishes the amount of usuable energy that can be provided to accomplish work. Its presence in and of itself does not dictate an oscillating universe. And far from being a theory it is established as the second of 3 laws of thermodynamics. Everything you do requires energy and from that the amount of usable energy is diminished through heat.
More or less.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics
For an oscillating universe we would need enough gravity to overcome the expansion of the universe intiated at the creation event--and in this case entropy may actually supply that gravity--but we would need enough energy to push the universe back out once it did collapse...which too much entropy may actually impede. Lacking enough gravity and the universe expands itself into a lukewarm gaseous vapor. Too much entropy and the universe collapses with a dull splat into a cooling puddle of mush.
Interesting that all out planets are either round or oval.
All spin clock wise except for one that spins about counter clock wise.
Is this the effect of graviety on them, then I think of the magitism on earth and out there ----is there a symbiotic realitionship between them.?
And sudddenly my faith in US schools is rekindled.
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Actually Uranus has an axial tilt of 98 degrees, virtually having its axis pointed at the Sun, so it is really a bit arbitrary to say whether the original North Pole is the one pointing out or pointing in, so the interpretation that it spins opposite to the other planets is just a wee bit interpretational.
The clockwise spin of the planets is mainly due to the clockwise rotation of the proto-system. Once the cosmic dust started to rotate as the Sun coalesced, it set up the conditions to cause the planets to rotate clockwise as they coalesced as well. Since the dust inside the orbital track of the planetary node would be moving slightly slower than the dust on the outside of the orbital track, it would set up a tiny accretional and frictional bias (With a large cumulative effect) in favor of clockwise rotation of each forming planetary body.
Captured bodies originating outside the system, evolutions of pole orientation by planets that do not have a large stabilizing satellite, or major collision after-effects can produce counter-rotating bodies, but they wouldn't naturally form in place that way.
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Oo-o-o-o
Somebody gots himself a new Word-A-Day calendar!
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Oo-o-o-o
Somebody gots himself a new Word-A-Day calendar!
Dude. Ain't rabbits supposed to be mute?
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Dude. Ain't rabbits supposed to be mute?
Don't you mean "aphasiac"?
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Don't you mean "aphasiac"?
Nah, my Dad had aphasia after his stroke, it's not the same thing at all. But then you're a rabbit, so what would you know...
:tongue:
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Nah, my Dad had aphasia after his stroke, it's not the same thing at all. But then you're a rabbit, so what would you know...
:tongue:
Aphasia is only a description, it's not a condition in and of itself. Kinda like how bronchitis doesn't speak of any particular ailment it is merely the term for inflammation of the bronchia.
Dohn't dey teech yu kolluj tipes nuffin'?
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Aphasia is only a description, it's not a condition in and of itself. Kinda like how bronchitis doesn't speak of any particular ailment it is merely the term for inflammation of the bronchia.
Dohn't dey teech yu kolluj tipes nuffin'?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but condition or symptom, if there's even a difference here, it still doesn't fit. I guess that's where the phrase 'Dumb bunny' comes from, though.
:evillaugh:
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I would imagine that what is driving the universe outward is the interia of the creative event. i.e. big bang.
From there I would guess-timate that if all things observed are ordered systems of information then the nearly-emergent universe would be hyper-informative. IOW: all information that would become all ordered systems was compressed but still possessed its inherent informational qualities to become said systems. Perhaps disorder sets in immediately after the bang and as gravity becomes a macro-scale phenomenon it works in conjunction with the inherent information.
Imagine looking at a scattering of raw matter, but then imagine seeing that matter order itself into the form of a crystal because that is what its information tells it to do (obviously one day entropy will wear this crystal done to its composite materials...dust-to-dust, if you will). As the matter begins to align itself it takes on structure but where there is no structure there is void. Watching from a (sub-)atomic scale this alignment may very well have the appearance of a repellent force and indeed the mechanics of such processes suggests such things within the chemical interplay.
Maybe.
Or maybe my parents did too much acid in the 60s.
How could the original expansion-as-cause-of-current-expansion account for the apparent acceleration of the expansion?