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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2009, 09:07:48 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 08:35:10 PM
And had they succeeded, the South would probably be like Bangladesh.  There was not industry and the crops have been grown elsewhere --- at greater efficiency.  And the entire world would have refused to trade with them due to the slavery thing.  It would have been terrible and today you would be a recipient of CCF instead of the creator of the emerginf best Conservative thinkplace on the web.


Yeah, I'm sure England thought the same thing about the colonies once they won the revolution. Guess that shows you how much speculation and conjecture matters.

BTW, if they wouldn't trade with the South, due to slavery, why would they trade with the slave-holding North? Also, we didn't have anything to offer? Why is it that we were the #1 exporter of cotton? As for "it could grow elsewhere", um, where? Vermont? Germany? Sweden maybe?

...and the 10th Amendment is THE amendment to argue the point. The states did what the people wanted. You know, those rights reserved. No state voluntarily entered into the union without an avenue of exit.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 09:10:20 PM by Rebel »
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2009, 09:23:18 PM »
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The consolidation of the States into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.  --General Robert E Lee
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2009, 09:30:20 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 09:07:48 PM
Yeah, I'm sure England thought the same thing about the colonies once they won the revolution. Guess that shows you how much speculation and conjecture matters.

False dichotomy. The States CHOSE to join the Union, not the other way around.  You should quit shopping that argument -- it is a loser.

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BTW, if they wouldn't trade with the South, due to slavery, why would they trade with the slave-holding North? Also, we didn't have anything to offer? Why is it that we were the #1 exporter of cotton? As for "it could grow elsewhere", um, where? Vermont? Germany? Sweden maybe?
California, for example, has grown every crop produced in the entire nation.  It wasn't part of the Union during the Civil War but there were plenty of places in the Southwest that could grow those crops. Cotton, corn, wheat, you name it -- there were lots of places in the expansion territories that could grow them.  As far as your very thin "but the North had slave states" ongoing argument, that was about to cease.

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...and the 10th Amendment is THE amendment to argue the point. The states did what the people wanted. You know, those rights reserved. No state voluntarily entered into the union without an avenue of exit.

You will not find a more fervent defender of the 9th and 10th Amendments than I.  There was no "exit clause" on entry into the Union, nor does the 10th provide one.
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2009, 09:33:50 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 09:30:20 PM
False dichotomy. The States CHOSE to join the Union, not the other way around.  You should quit shopping that argument -- it is a loser.
California, for example, has grown every crop produced in the entire nation.  It wasn't part of the Union during the Civil War but there were plenty of places in the Southwest that could grow those crops. Cotton, corn, wheat, you name it -- there were lots of places in the expansion territories that could grow them.  As far as your very thin "but the North had slave states" ongoing argument, that was about to cease.

You will not find a more fervent defender of the 9th and 10th Amendments than I.  There was no "exit clause" on entry into the Union, nor does the 10th provide one.


They CHOSE to join the union but there was NOTHING saying they couldn't leave, with a majority of the people in the state wanting to leave. That was how the country was founded. Strong state governments and limited federal power. As for the exit clause, again, the US Constitution wasn't a list of limitations placed on the states or the people, but on the federal government. YOU show me where it's stated that states COULDN'T leave.

....waiting.......
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2009, 09:34:53 PM »
Matter of fact, hell, show me ANY document saying they couldn't dissolve their union with the fed.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2009, 09:46:49 PM »
I wish I could take credit for these, but I just found them on another forum.

The 10th amendment - while certainly the most direct argument supporting the right reserved to the states individually to secede - is not the only one, and not the only constitutional argument for theat case.

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1) West Virginia After Virginia left the union: counties in the Western part of Virginia petitioned for, and were granted, statehood in the Union.

Article 4, Section 3 , Clause 1 of the Constitution is very clear on this:

...New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Therefore, Virginia at the time of West Virginia's Admittance to the Union, could NOT have been a state of the Union. That state's secession was judged by subsequent actions of the Federal Government itself to have been valid.




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2) Readmission to the Congress and the Union: Even though Texas V White was in 1869, Many states were not readmitted to the union until 1870. If Texas v White had truly nullified secession, then such a step should not have been necessary.


from, The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Constitution:
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The seceding states justified their actions chilefly on the basis that the northern states were unwilling to comply with the Constitution - and thus were a threat to slavery in the South. South Carolina, following [John C.] Calhoun's teaching and example of 1832's Nullification Convention, seceded through exactly the same type of convention as had ratified the Constitution in the first place. In the spirit of the Declaration of Independence, the people had decided that the federal government was not protecting their rights, so they were reclaiming their powers from it.



also from PIG:
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On the blockade of ports of the Confederacy:   Under the law of nations, only a country could be blockaded, which raises the question of whether Lincoln was implicitly recognizing the Confederacy's independence. Lincoln insisted that the Confederacy was not a country, but a rebel region - so was he violating international law or recognizing Confederate independence? Neither outcome would have been very good for him, so the Supreme Court handily rescued him in 1862 by deciding that the Confederacy was a foreign country in regard to blockades, but a rebellious region in all other aspects!




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Intially, many northerners conceded the validity of secession. IN fact, some abolitionists had been calling for northern secession for years. In Congress, several congressmen from northern states proposed amendments to limit the right of secession, de facto conceding that the right of secession already existed. And, logically, it had to exist, because without such a right, the American colonies/states could not have seceded from the British Empire.




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The Federalists always insisted during the ratification debates - knowing that they had to in order to win approval for the Consttitution - that the states were individual parties to a federal compact. Spelling out the logic of the compact, three states - Virginia, Maryland and Rhode Island - explicity reserved (in the act of ratifying the Constitution) their right to secede from the Union.


I find it pretty interesting that the Federal government was willing to recognize the validity of secession when it suited them (West Virginia statehood) and denied the existence of any such right when it didn't suit them.  

Maybe Duh Fuhrer is more like President Lincoln than any of our "historians" would care to admit.
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2009, 09:48:36 PM »
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A little-known fact of the Constitution is that two of the largest states -- Virginia and New York -- made the right to withdraw from the union explicit in their acceptance of the Constitution. And in such an agreement between parties as is represented by the Constitution, a right claimed by one is allowed to all.

http://www.etymonline.com/cw/secession2.htm
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2009, 09:50:50 PM »
Again, I'm not anti-American. I'm pro-Constitution, and when I see my country deviating so far from the founding principles of this country's founding, .....


well....


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...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

http://www.secessionist.us/legality_of_secession.htm
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2009, 09:53:13 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 09:50:50 PM
Again, I'm not anti-American. I'm pro-Constitution, and when I see my country deviating so far from the founding principles of this country's founding, .....


well....


http://www.secessionist.us/legality_of_secession.htm

No, you are just re-fighting the War of Southern Insolence -- which your side lost.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2009, 09:55:15 PM »
Quote from: DefiantSix on February 04, 2009, 09:46:49 PM
I wish I could take credit for these, but I just found them on another forum.

The 10th amendment - while certainly the most direct argument supporting the right reserved to the states individually to secede - is not the only one, and not the only constitutional argument for theat case.





from, The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Constitution:


also from PIG:







I find it pretty interesting that the Federal government was willing to recognize the validity of secession when it suited them (West Virginia statehood) and denied the existence of any such right when it didn't suit them.  

Maybe Duh Fuhrer is more like President Lincoln than any of our "historians" would care to admit.


Good information.  Thanks.
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2009, 09:55:44 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 09:53:13 PM
No, you are just re-fighting the War of Southern Insolence -- which your side lost.

Insolence? Are you ****ing kidding me? You'd fit in well in Nazi Germany, where the people were subjects to the Fuhrer. Rest easy, you're in the right state.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2009, 10:02:34 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 09:48:36 PM
http://www.etymonline.com/cw/secession2.htm

That entire document uses the same flawed premise you keep using.  It fails to acknowledge that joining the union was a voluntary action and carried with it certain risks and obligations. 

To allow states to enter and leave the Union on a whim undermines the idea of a union. 

The separation from England was by those who did not voluntarily join the British Empire, but were spun from it.

Completely different and a perfect example of a non-sequitur.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2009, 10:04:37 PM »
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Patrick Henry had predicted in the Richmond Ratification Convention of 1788 that a president would someday invade Virginia, burn down delegate's houses, declare it a military necessity and free the slaves.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2009, 10:06:55 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:02:34 PM
To allow states to enter and leave the Union on a whim undermines the idea of a union.

It wasn't on a whim. It took a majority of the state's voting population.

Hey, while you're at it, why don't we just scrap the entire US Constitution? It's kinda old anyway.  :whatever:
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2009, 10:07:00 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 09:55:44 PM
Insolence? Are you ****ing kidding me? You'd fit in well in Nazi Germany, where the people were subjects to the Fuhrer. Rest easy, you're in the right state.

Umm, Reb, check your meds.  Because I point out the paucity of logic for the South's attempt to renege on their agreements does NOT make me (or anyone) a "Nazi."  The Civil War was not about killing Jews nor worldwide conquest.  It was simply about retaining that which our forefathers fought for and agreed to.

The fact that the South decided it wanted to leave the community which had protected it for over a hundred years because it saw that slavery was about to end is NOT the same as fighting against a Nazi regime.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2009, 10:08:10 PM »
BTW, I do find it funny that you're arrogant enough to think you know more about what the founders intended than what the founders actually intended and expressed in their own words. Pure arrogance.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2009, 10:08:44 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 10:06:55 PM
It wasn't on a whim. It took a majority of the state's voting population.

Hey, while you're at it, why don't we just scrap the entire US Constitution? It's kinda old anyway.  :whatever:

I propose quite the opposite -- that the Union must hew to the USC and that those entities that voluntarily attached themselves to it live up to their obligations.

Hyperbole doesn't help your arguments, Reb.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2009, 10:10:16 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 10:08:10 PM
BTW, I do find it funny that you're arrogant enough to think you know more about what the founders intended than what the founders actually intended and expressed in their own words. Pure arrogance.

Their words are quite clear.  It is you who misinterprets them to produce a meaning that supports your position.


I suppose you also disregard "Texas v. White."
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2009, 10:10:42 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:07:00 PM
Umm, Reb, check your meds.  Because I point out the paucity of logic for the South's attempt to renege on their agreements does NOT make me (or anyone) a "Nazi."  The Civil War was not about killing Jews nor worldwide conquest.  It was simply about retaining that which our forefathers fought for and agreed to.

The fact that the South decided it wanted to leave the community which had protected it for over a hundred years because it saw that slavery was about to end is NOT the same as fighting against a Nazi regime.

I used the Nazi analogy because you stated something about the south being "insolent". That f'n statement is generally reserved for people going against a monarch or dictator. YOU used it towards the South for having the audacity to leave the "Imperial Federal Government". Hell, I guess we should have just given up our right to representation all together. Afterall, we wouldn't want to be insolent, now would we?
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2009, 10:13:05 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:08:44 PM
I propose quite the opposite -- that the Union must hew to the USC and that those entities that voluntarily attached themselves to it live up to their obligations.

Hyperbole doesn't help your arguments, Reb.

Those obligations end when the federal government starts working against the wishes of the people.

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...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

I've asked this several times....and I guess none of you have the balls to answer, after ALL the fighting against the imperial British military, why in the HELL would ANY state enter into a union, with UNION being the key word here, with NO recourse or measure to exit?
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2009, 10:14:16 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:10:16 PM
Their words are quite clear.  It is you who misinterprets them to produce a meaning that supports your position.


I suppose you also disregard "Texas v. White."

Who the **** cares? It was ruled on 4 years after the end of the war between the states. Do you normally use current rulings to decide past cases?  :whatever:
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline rich_t

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2009, 10:17:55 PM »
War of Southern Insolence????

A tad over the top don't ya think?
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2009, 10:17:59 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 10:10:42 PM
I used the Nazi analogy because you stated something about the south being "insolent". That f'n statement is generally reserved for people going against a monarch or dictator. YOU used it towards the South for having the audacity to leave the "Imperial Federal Government". Hell, I guess we should have just given up our right to representation all together. Afterall, we wouldn't want to be insolent, now would we?

Yes, it was the Southern States deciding they were more important than their agreements.  They had plenty of representation, as defined in the USC.  They were not singled out for special under-representation and it was by the grace of Lincoln that they were not made "Junior States" which most of the North wanted.

You owe Lincoln a great debt of gratitude.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2009, 10:20:02 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 10:13:05 PM
Those obligations end when the federal government starts working against the wishes of the people.

I've asked this several times....and I guess none of you have the balls to answer, after ALL the fighting against the imperial British military, why in the HELL would ANY state enter into a union, with UNION being the key word here, with NO recourse or measure to exit?
That is what makes a Union.  If the going get tough, it is important that the Union hold together.  There is no escape clause, as much as you want to invent one.

Some decisions are irreversible.  I remind you -- AGAIN -- joining the Union was voluntary.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2009, 10:20:58 PM »
Only the incredibly ignorant think that the Civil War was about slavery.
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