Author Topic: Car Battery question  (Read 3525 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Duke Nukum

  • Assistant Chair of the Committee on Neighborhood Services
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8015
  • Reputation: +561/-202
  • O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
Car Battery question
« on: September 04, 2010, 02:56:36 PM »
My girlfriend has this bad habbit of leaving a light on in her car and draining the battery.

This time the battery doesn't appear to be responding to a jump.  I have a battery charger, is it worth it to take the battery out an attempt to just charging it alone?

Does draining a car battery multiple times?

She bought her car used last year, it is a 2006 Honda Civic so it could just be time to get a new battery if the previous owner never replaced it.

Thanks in advance.
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2010, 02:59:35 PM »
I would try charging it.  The battery should respond to a couple hours of charging unless it's completely gone. 

When you jumped her car from yours, did you leave your car running, or was it turned off?
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Thor

  • General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!
  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13103
  • Reputation: +362/-297
  • Native Texan & US Navy (ret)
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 03:08:53 PM »
A few things.......

is the battery one of those "maintenance free" ones with no caps on the top? If so, it's time for a new battery.

the next thing is if it isn't "maintenance free" is to check the water levels in it. Refill with pure distilled water if the water is below the plates and recharge. Leave the caps off while recharging.

Next, you need a "hydrometer" for checking for a shorted cell.  Pull off the caps, insert hydrometer, read levels on each cell. If one cell is way low, then you have a shorted cell. If you have a shorted cell, replace the battery.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

I AM your General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."-Thomas Jefferson

Offline thundley4

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40571
  • Reputation: +2222/-127
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 03:09:50 PM »
Even with a totally drained battery the car still should have started when jumped, if as Chris said, your car was running.  

Offline Duke Nukum

  • Assistant Chair of the Committee on Neighborhood Services
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8015
  • Reputation: +561/-202
  • O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2010, 03:16:07 PM »
Even with a totally drained battery the car still should have started when jumped, if as Chris said, your car was running.  
Thanks everybody and yes, that is what I thought.

My car was running and her car started for a breif period and then quickly stopped running.  After trying to restart it, nothing happened until we left my car idling for a few more minutes.

Finally I had to drive her to work.  I would have stopped back at her place and taken the battery to my place but I had no tools.  I am going to eat something and head back to her place.

She has drained her battery several times since she bought the car last year.  Could this have damaged the car in some way?

Thanks again.
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2010, 04:00:53 PM »
Thanks everybody and yes, that is what I thought.

My car was running and her car started for a breif period and then quickly stopped running.  After trying to restart it, nothing happened until we left my car idling for a few more minutes.

Finally I had to drive her to work.  I would have stopped back at her place and taken the battery to my place but I had no tools.  I am going to eat something and head back to her place.

She has drained her battery several times since she bought the car last year.  Could this have damaged the car in some way?

Thanks again.

Running a lead/acid battery down to "zero" volts repeatedly will shorten its life somewhat, however, you will need to charge it for a while to activate it again.  Unless a 12 v battery is charged to a level of 10 v or higher, if you place it back in the vehicle, it won't activate the field coils in the alternator to charge while the vehicle is running, so it will just run down again.

Another yardstick is that modern "maintenance free" batteries usually don't last much longer than 3 years under nominal conditions, so if this one is older than that, a replacement would be a good idea......

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline thundley4

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40571
  • Reputation: +2222/-127
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2010, 04:13:27 PM »
Only 3 years?  We've had our car for 7 years and have never had a problem, other than the battery going dead a couple of times when my wife left the lights on.

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2010, 04:16:21 PM »
The battery in my 5-speed has a date stamp of 2003 on it.  I've run it down a couple times and re-charged it and had no problems with it.  Drove it all last winter with no problems.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Doc

  • General Malcontent and
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 830
  • Reputation: +2/-3
  • Sic transit gloria mundi
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2010, 07:28:17 PM »
Only 3 years?  We've had our car for 7 years and have never had a problem, other than the battery going dead a couple of times when my wife left the lights on.

Quote
The battery in my 5-speed has a date stamp of 2003 on it.  I've run it down a couple times and recharged it and had no problems with it.  Drove it all last winter with no problems.

If you (or someone else) bought a "top of the line" aftermarket battery, it usually is accompanied by thicker plates, and more durable internal spacers and associated hardware......these can be expected to last somewhat longer.  I believe that the most robust battery that is available today has a warranty and design life of 60 months (5 years).  Bear in mind that batteries like tires are warranted on a "prorata" basis, which means that if you have a 60 month battery, that fails in its 59th month, its going to cost you $95 bucks to replace it (under warranty), when you could have bought the replacement outright for $100.

The typical failure mode for a battery is that the lead plates are gradually eroded by the internal electrochemical reaction that makes them work......after they become so thin, they start to warp, due to the heat generated internally by the charging cycle, and eventually a plate will contact the next plate, creating an internal short (shorted cell), and failure.  Also the buss bars that connect the cells in series are made of the same material, and erode as well, until they separate, resulting in a instantaneous catastrophic failure manifested by "zero" output volts.  

However for the OEM batteries, and the "middle of the road" replacements, they typically come with a 36 month prorated warranty because their internal construction places their design life at that point (36 mo) in the most harsh duty conditions in the US.  If you live in the south, or other areas where the battery is not exposed to extremes of cold, and frequent maximum cranking current drain, they can be expected to last a while longer.  Even cars in northern climes that are garaged will see longer battery life.

That said......if your battery is seven years old, and you depend on it to start every morning to make a living, I would consider replacing it prophylactically, as it's definitely living on "borrowed time".  Batteries are relatively cheap, compared to the frustration of dealing with a dead one.  Also, "Murphy's Law" will likely apply, and the damn thing will roll a seven on the day you need it most.

doc
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 07:37:17 PM by TVDOC »

Offline thundley4

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40571
  • Reputation: +2222/-127
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2010, 07:37:27 PM »
Fortunately, I live close enough that I walk to work most of the time. :)  Thanks for the explanation of what causes a battery to fail, though.  It makes it sound like the less the battery is charged and discharged, the longer it will last.

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2010, 08:11:27 PM »
Fortunately, I live close enough that I walk to work most of the time. :)  Thanks for the explanation of what causes a battery to fail, though.  It makes it sound like the less the battery is charged and discharged, the longer it will last.

True to an extent......the extent being the "depth" of the discharge/charge cycle.  Nothing will kill a battery faster than a car that is hard to start, and has to be cranked for several minutes before it finally runs.....

The cranking load on a typical V-6 engine, at a temperature of 30 degrees is usually about 150 amps......discharging the battery at that rate for longer than 30 seconds causes the internal components to heat up FAST, and I have seen batteries that have literally melted internally due to "over cranking"......bear in mind that the internal connections in a battery are made of lead, which is a soft metal, and will melt, or distort quickly if overheated.

If you have a vehicle that is not driven often, or is only driven for short trips, I would recommend purchasing a "float" type charger, and connecting it to the battery when the car is not in use.  These chargers are designed to maintain the battery at the optimum charge level, and internal temperature over long periods of time while not being used.  You can get one for about $40 and they will extend battery life indefinitely under those circumstances, as the battery is being maintained at optimum condition at all times. 

They typically come with a "quick disconnect" pigtail that can be pulled through the grille, and rhat way, you don't have to open the hood to connect and disconnect it all the time.  I use one of these on my emergency generator, and they work great, and I no longer have to worry about the battery discharging and freezing in the winter.

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Duke Nukum

  • Assistant Chair of the Committee on Neighborhood Services
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8015
  • Reputation: +561/-202
  • O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2010, 09:23:05 PM »
Thanks again to everybody for your help.

We found out the main problem is some security issue where the car wont start after the battery has been disconnected (or has run down).
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2010, 09:24:38 PM »
You should be able to disable that -- check the owner's manual.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Wineslob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14441
  • Reputation: +780/-193
  • Sucking the life out of Liberty
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2010, 04:24:27 PM »
One other thing to look for ala the discharging DOC mentions, a swelled battery. If you look down the sides of the battery and they bulge out, you probably killed the battery.
“The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”

        -- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 55 BC (106-43 BC)

The unobtainable is unknown at Zombo.com



"Practice random violence and senseless acts of brutality"

If you want a gender neutral bathroom, go pee in the forest.

Offline Thor

  • General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!
  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13103
  • Reputation: +362/-297
  • Native Texan & US Navy (ret)
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2010, 05:05:42 PM »
Fortunately, I live close enough that I walk to work most of the time. :)  Thanks for the explanation of what causes a battery to fail, though.  It makes it sound like the less the battery is charged and discharged, the longer it will last.

No, that is not necessarily true. There is an internal resistance in a battery and that will cause it to run down, all on its own. Modern cars with computers are hell on batteries because there is a constant, but small draw on the battery when the vehicle is not running. The float charger thing is a good idea. I killed a battery in my older truck because it set so long without a float charger. I always meant to purchase one, but never did. In turn, I wound up overcharging the battery and killed it.

The reason why alternators put out roughly 13.8 volts is to recharge the battery.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

I AM your General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."-Thomas Jefferson

Offline Duke Nukum

  • Assistant Chair of the Committee on Neighborhood Services
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8015
  • Reputation: +561/-202
  • O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2010, 05:31:22 PM »
It turned out that after the battery ran down, the key code got reset.

This morning we called the dealer and got some weird bypass code which was entered by moving the parking brake up and down.  Then we could start the car.

I went to the dealer with my g/f but left after they fixed the "problem" so I don't have much in the way of details.
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2010, 06:49:48 PM »
It turned out that after the battery ran down, the key code got reset.

This morning we called the dealer and got some weird bypass code which was entered by moving the parking brake up and down.  Then we could start the car.

This is why I hate new cars. :rotf:
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Wineslob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14441
  • Reputation: +780/-193
  • Sucking the life out of Liberty
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2010, 12:42:14 PM »
It turned out that after the battery ran down, the key code got reset.

This morning we called the dealer and got some weird bypass code which was entered by moving the parking brake up and down.  Then we could start the car.

I went to the dealer with my g/f but left after they fixed the "problem" so I don't have much in the way of details.


Yeesh.  :thatsright:
“The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”

        -- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 55 BC (106-43 BC)

The unobtainable is unknown at Zombo.com



"Practice random violence and senseless acts of brutality"

If you want a gender neutral bathroom, go pee in the forest.

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2010, 02:01:00 PM »
It turned out that after the battery ran down, the key code got reset.

This morning we called the dealer and got some weird bypass code which was entered by moving the parking brake up and down.  Then we could start the car.

I went to the dealer with my g/f but left after they fixed the "problem" so I don't have much in the way of details.

I had a similiar problem when the battery failed on our Jeep GC (under warranty).......it seems that the position of the power windows is stored in the CPU's memory......when the battery was replaced, the windows "forgot" where they were, and wouldn't close completely without reprogramming all the stops.

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline true_blood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6221
  • Reputation: +652/-817
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2010, 08:26:09 PM »
I have a Camaro SS that I never drive, and I leave it disconnected from the battery sitting in the garage. By doing this the sensors on the exhausts are thrown off for a bit. Car usually has to idle for a bit and be driven at least 5 miles to reset themselves. So many sensors and along with a ecu/pcm in cars these days.

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2010, 08:31:27 PM »
I have a Camaro SS that I never drive
What year? :drool:

Car #1's battery (which is actually labeled 2006 and not 2003 as I thought) would not start this morning.  It seems to do that if I leave it for more than a week or two without running the car.  I picked up a couple of terminal ends this afternoon and connected them to the trickle charger I bought earlier. 

I think the battery may be expired since it seems to lose charge if it doesn't get used regularly. 
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline true_blood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6221
  • Reputation: +652/-817
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2010, 10:35:19 AM »
It's a '99 Camaro SS. It's a "one of 35" car. I had ordered it in March of '99 and got in June of '99. It is Hugger Orange with white leather interior. All the bells and whistles except for traction control, which I wish I had ordered now, just to have it. Even has the 12 disk Monsoon stereo system. Car NEVER sees rain/wet pavement or snow. Only 14,227 on the clock.
I would eventually like to sell it to build either a '69 pro-touring Camaro or a '70 pro-touring Chevelle. (If I can get away without selling the car and build the other car, I will, but I highly doubt it as the pro-tour build is EXPENSIVE!! The suspension alone is about 12k!!!!!! :o :o :mental: :hyper:)

Offline zeitgeist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6194
  • Reputation: +390/-44
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2010, 11:23:17 AM »
It's a '99 Camaro SS. It's a "one of 35" car. I had ordered it in March of '99 and got in June of '99. It is Hugger Orange with white leather interior. All the bells and whistles except for traction control, which I wish I had ordered now, just to have it. Even has the 12 disk Monsoon stereo system. Car NEVER sees rain/wet pavement or snow. Only 14,227 on the clock.
I would eventually like to sell it to build either a '69 pro-touring Camaro or a '70 pro-touring Chevelle. (If I can get away without selling the car and build the other car, I will, but I highly doubt it as the pro-tour build is EXPENSIVE!! The suspension alone is about 12k!!!!!! :o :o :mental: :hyper:)

Ever see a COPO?  Saw a '69 reproduction at a show in 08.  $30K in engine alone.  A real Plain Jane sleeper. 

The aluminum 427 produces 555hp on the dyno, gets  1/2 mpg on the strip with 114 Ocatne


Talk about a smoke show.
< watch this space for coming distractions >

Offline true_blood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6221
  • Reputation: +652/-817
Re: Car Battery question
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2010, 12:53:13 PM »
OH YEAH!! :o I am familiar with those cars as well. Those are some very HIGH priced machines right there. That is a special order car as well.
Named COPO for a reason. Central Office Production Order car. Yenkos and Baldwin Motion are pretty rare too.