Should same-sex marriage be legal?

[DefiantSix]

What avalanche of evidence?

The existence of societies where the open practice of homosexuality was or is virtually nil, does not constitute good evidence that sexual orientations of individuals can be influenced or altered by social pressures.   I'm somewhat reminded of the time Ahmadinejad was asked about homosexuality in Iran as he gave a speech in the US, and he replied, "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country."  Sure, maybe the open practice is non-existent - and even the clandestine practice is probably very small (because if they get caught, they might be executed) - but doesn't mean there are any less men who are  sexually attracted primarily to other men (same goes for women).

Aren't you late for your 83rd trimester abortion appointment, Wilbur?  Shaddup and let the adults talk, mmkay?

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

What avalanche of evidence?

The existence of societies where the open practice of homosexuality was or is virtually nil, does not constitute good evidence that sexual orientations of individuals can be influenced or altered by social pressures...

The Spartans for startin's. They were trained to seek sexual release with their fellow warriors.

Ditto the Romans, Greeks, Babylonians and others to varying degrees between their cultures.

Much of the biblical proscriptions, i.e. not cutting the corners of the beard, are intended to distinguish the Hebrew from his neighboring pagans because male pagan temple prostitutes cut their facial hair to excentuate their boyish features.

Ask any soldier deployed to Afghanistan about the local custom of "Man-Love Thursday." They see women as objects of sexual gratification, only pro-creation. Sex for fun comes from their fellow man.

IIRC, one Australian or SE Pacific aboriginal tribe has the young boys fellate each other and drink semen so as to facilitate their growth into men.

NOTE: This is not an exhaustive list.

QUERY: If homosexuality has so much approval and acceptance amongst liberals why does the prospect of acculturated homosexuality frighten them so much? I mean, if it's OK, if there is nothing wrong with it, if it isn't unhealthy, if it is admitted homosexuals derive deep fulfilling pleasure from their actions then exactly WHY do their defenders grow either pale with dread or red with fury at any suggestion others might of their own free will join such activities?

[vesta111]

Hi conservativecave,

I'm testing out my new site rgument.com with a really controversial topic: "Same-sex marriages shouldn't be allowed". I've posted here as well as a popular LGBT forum in the hopes of finding people on both sides of the divide. Please help me build a list of the best arguments on either side of this fascinating debate. Thanks!

P.S. If you have any suggestions as to the functionality of the site I'd love to hear them.

I have read a few comments to you and I have to say this is most complicated.

What is two people wish to marry and not have sex, does this make the marriage invalid???

What about people that are handicapped, paralyzed from the waist down, can they not get married???

Then every so often we read of 80 year olds in nursing homes that get married so they can share the same living quarters.

As far as I know there is nothing in the law that says getting married to same or different sex has to involve sex.

[Rebel]

What avalanche of evidence?

The existence of societies where the open practice of homosexuality was or is virtually nil, does not constitute good evidence that sexual orientations of individuals can be influenced or altered by social pressures.   I'm somewhat reminded of the time Ahmadinejad was asked about homosexuality in Iran as he gave a speech in the US, and he replied, "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country."  Sure, maybe the open practice is non-existent - and even the clandestine practice is probably very small (because if they get caught, they might be executed) - but doesn't mean there are any less men who are  sexually attracted primarily to other men (same goes for women).

What about the fact that in those places where the lifestyle is accepted as normal, they're not procreating enough to continue their existence? Every country it's treated as normal is a country that's on a death spiral and only growing due to immigration, most of the time by people of a religion that would just as soon cut your f'n head off. Sweden, Belgium, England, France, etc., etc., etc. ALL dying.

[Thor]

Wasn't there just a post about San Fagsico and how their young population is dwindling??

Why, yes, there was: http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,57004.0.html

Case in point.

[ChristianMIller]

“Should same-sex marriage be legal?” When we speak of “legal” we mean government laws. There are really two government¬s involved: federal and state.  The federal government’s current primary role is providing financial benefits to couples with marriage licenses issued by the states.  I would argue that the federal government should not be involved in marriage or civil unions.

The federal government began its involvement in marriage about 80 years ago and its subsidies to couples with marriage licenses have been accumulating over the years. There is no evidence that the institution of marriage is stronger now than it was 80 years ago. There is no indication that federal subsidies have helped strengthen¬ed the institution of marriage.

The vast bulk of these subsidies go to our more affluent couples. We could justify ending the federal government’s involvement in marriage with the argument that married couples in financial distress get very little federal marriage monies, if any, and that government marriage subsidies go mostly to affluent married couples who do not need it.

Do these subsidies provide incentive for couples to get a marriage license? It is hard to imagine a couple in their twenties and in love deciding to get a marriage license because the wife might be able to collect 50% of the husband’s Social Security when they are in their sixties.

Getting the federal government and state government out of the marriage/civil union business would be a graceful way to end the same-sex marriage debate.

[rubliw]

The Spartans for startin's. They were trained to seek sexual release with their fellow warriors.

Ditto the Romans, Greeks, Babylonians and others to varying degrees between their cultures.

Much of the biblical proscriptions, i.e. not cutting the corners of the beard, are intended to distinguish the Hebrew from his neighboring pagans because male pagan temple prostitutes cut their facial hair to excentuate their boyish features.

Ask any soldier deployed to Afghanistan about the local custom of "Man-Love Thursday." They see women as objects of sexual gratification, only pro-creation. Sex for fun comes from their fellow man.

IIRC, one Australian or SE Pacific aboriginal tribe has the young boys fellate each other and drink semen so as to facilitate their growth into men.

Well, again, this just speaks to the fact that some certain sexual behaviors are malleable by social pressures in certain people - but not necessarily one's genuine sexual desires.   There are also plenty of examples of gay men who have married women - had children.  This, however, is not good evidence that the man really had a heterosexual orientation.

Still open is the possibility that one's sexual desires, either homosexual or hetero - have a strong basis in heredity.  And that's exactly what is suggested by quite a lot of research.  Some of the most notable examples of such research, are the various twin studies.

QUERY: If homosexuality has so much approval and acceptance amongst liberals why does the prospect of acculturated homosexuality frighten them so much? I mean, if it's OK, if there is nothing wrong with it, if it isn't unhealthy, if it is admitted homosexuals derive deep fulfilling pleasure from their actions then exactly WHY do their defenders grow either pale with dread or red with fury at any suggestion others might of their own free will join such activities?

Do gay men really fear straight guys taking a trip to the dark side?  Doubt it!

They certainly will get upset when you suggest that *THEY* chose their orientations, and for some reason, that makes it right to marginalize them.   The whole "its a choice" thing, is basically used as an excuse to dismiss their concerns.    

But of course, that whole can of worms is a fallacy to begin with.  Who cares if the actions were the result of choice or biology?  The most probable answer is that its *all* biology - from your sexual orientation, to your taste in food and music.  The libertarian free-will types have absolutely no way to determine which actions of a person actually originated from whatever mysterious and magical realm one's free choices are supposed to originate from, and which actions are the products of biological and/or environmental causation.   The only thing they can say is that they havent found a specific material cause for a particular action or choice - and that therefore, maybe it came from "the will" - and therefore it should be blameworthy in some way?  That's ridiculous.

[rubliw]

What about the fact that in those places where the lifestyle is accepted as normal, they're not procreating enough to continue their existence? Every country it's treated as normal is a country that's on a death spiral and only growing due to immigration, most of the time by people of a religion that would just as soon cut your f'n head off. Sweden, Belgium, England, France, etc., etc., etc. ALL dying.

So homosexuality is the root cause behind all these nations drop in fertility?   Just what does homosexuality have to do with the shrinking size of modern families?

[Rebel]

So homosexuality is the root cause behind all these nations drop in fertility?   Just what does homosexuality have to do with the shrinking size of modern families?

I don't remember saying a damn thing about it being the root cause. I simply posted a correlation and I do think they have something to do with one another.

[rubliw]

I don't remember saying a damn thing about it being the root cause. I simply posted a correlation and I do think they have something to do with one another.

Fertility rates, and the various causes of their rises and drops, are extremely complicated... everything from economics to birth control and a million other things... I remain unconvinced, to put it mildly, that treating a tiny homosexual population as equals has anything to do with how many kids heterosexual couples chose to have.

[Rebel]

Fertility rates, and the various causes of their rises and drops, are extremely complicated... everything from economics to birth control and a million other things... I remain unconvinced, to put it mildly, that treating a tiny homosexual population as equals has anything to do with how many kids heterosexual couples chose to have.

Fertility rates don't seem to be dropping in the Muslim immigrants, only the left-wing thinking natives who think Ted and Fred getting it on in the park is normal.

For the record, I have no problem with homosexuals. I don't, however, want it to be known as "the norm" and I don't want us to wind up sacrificing our moral decency to appease a small sector or our society. I have two best friends who are gay and have been with each other for twenty years. They don't throw it up in your face and live decent lives. Lives that should be lauded as decent. What do we see instead? Idiots in assless chaps wearing pink boas parading all downtown in "pride" parades in front of children. That shit needs to f'n stop. If you don't want to be seen as a hedonistic freak, then stop ACTING like a hedonistic freak. There are NO straight people that I know that see what happens with loose women at Mardi Gras as "normal". I don't think most people would ostracize gay people if they just lived their damn lives like everyone else and stopped throwing shit up in their faces. Those aren't the ones doing a disservice to their sexual status. You're gay. We get it. Now STFU. We don't care.

[rubliw]

Fertility rates don't seem to be dropping in the Muslim immigrants, only the left-wing thinking natives who think Ted and Fred getting it on in the park is normal.

For the record, I have no problem with homosexuals. I don't, however, want it to be known as "the norm" and I don't want us to wind up sacrificing our moral decency to appease a small sector or our society. I have two best friends who are gay and have been with each other for twenty years. They don't throw it up in your face and live decent lives. Lives that should be lauded as decent.
What do we see instead? Idiots in assless chaps wearing pink boas parading all downtown in "pride" parades in front of children. That shit needs to f'n stop. If you don't want to be seen as a hedonistic freak, then stop ACTING like a hedonistic freak. There are NO straight people that I know that see what happens with loose women at Mardi Gras as "normal". I don't think most people would ostracize gay people if they just lived their damn lives like everyone else and stopped throwing shit up in their faces. Those aren't the ones doing a disservice to their sexual status. You're gay. We get it. Now STFU. We don't care.

Gay's were ostracized even more harshly in times when ass-less leather chaps and pride parades would have been absolutely unthinkable.  So I really don't think that's it.

As MP_Sarge suggested earlier, encouraging homosexuals to take part in monogamous marriage may actually help change some of that "in your face" culture, and perhaps even the promiscuity.

[Rebel]

Gay's were ostracized even more harshly in times when ass-less leather chaps and pride parades would have been absolutely unthinkable.  So I really don't think that's it.

As MP_Sarge suggested earlier, encouraging homosexuals to take part in monogamous marriage may actually help change some of that "in your face" culture, and perhaps even the promiscuity.

Put both your sentences together and tell me if together they make a BIT of damn sense. There is nothing monogamous being promoted at ANY "pride mob rally".

[Rebel]

...not that that strawman about how they were treated in the past has anything to do with what is actually being discussed. I suppose you'll excuse away how those idiots acted at BK in PCB because, "well, should have seen how THEY were treated in the 1800's". 

[rubliw]

Put both your sentences together and tell me if together they make a BIT of damn sense. There is nothing monogamous being promoted at ANY "pride mob rally".

The question is, then... do those people represent the beliefs and the attitudes of the majority of the homosexual population?

I'd think the only types you'd get to show up for a parade, are the in your face types.  

[rubliw]

...not that that strawman about how they were treated in the past has anything to do with what is actually being discussed. I suppose you'll excuse away how those idiots acted at BK in PCB because, "well, should have seen how THEY were treated in the 1800's".  

Your claim was that people reject them because of their "in your face" attitude - I brought up the past, because the history of homosexuality and its persecution basically show us otherwise... homosexual persecution and marginalization has a long history that extends far back beyond the birth of the first gay pride parade.

[Rebel]

The question is, then... do those people represent the beliefs and the attitudes of the majority of the homosexual population?

Honestly? I don't believe they do, so why the HELL are we supposed to show these "gay pride" parades as normal for gays and tap dance around the issue so we don't offend anyone? Seems to me gay people should be pissed the hell off if they were all shown to act like those clowns.

[Rebel]

Your claim was that people reject them because of their "in your face" attitude - I brought up the past, because the history of homosexuality and its persecution basically show us otherwise.

What happened in the past has nothing to do with the present. These parades aren't about rights.

[DefiantSix]

The question is, then... do those people represent the beliefs and the attitudes of the majority of the homosexual population?

I'd think the only types you'd get to show up for a parade, are the in your face types.  

[rubliw]

Honestly? I don't believe they do, so why the HELL are we supposed to show these "gay pride" parades as normal for gays and tap dance around the issue so we don't offend anyone? Seems to me gay people should be pissed the hell off if they were all shown to act like those clowns.

We arent - we're supposed to give people, like the friends that you mention, the benefit of the doubt that they are honorable and decent people who do their best to live good, decent, happy lives.

Endorsing same-sex marriage or respecting homosexuality does not mean one has to tolerate assless chaps in the public square - and I doubt *most* homosexuals feel any differently.

[rubliw]

What happened in the past has nothing to do with the present. These parades aren't about rights.

I agree - but I'm not saying we should give homosexuals the right to marry based on parades.

[debk]

Fertility rates don't seem to be dropping in the Muslim immigrants, only the left-wing thinking natives who think Ted and Fred getting it on in the park is normal.

For the record, I have no problem with homosexuals. I don't, however, want it to be known as "the norm" and I don't want us to wind up sacrificing our moral decency to appease a small sector or our society. I have two best friends who are gay and have been with each other for twenty years. They don't throw it up in your face and live decent lives. Lives that should be lauded as decent. What do we see instead? Idiots in assless chaps wearing pink boas parading all downtown in "pride" parades in front of children. That shit needs to f'n stop. If you don't want to be seen as a hedonistic freak, then stop ACTING like a hedonistic freak. There are NO straight people that I know that see what happens with loose women at Mardi Gras as "normal". I don't think most people would ostracize gay people if they just lived their damn lives like everyone else and stopped throwing shit up in their faces. Those aren't the ones doing a disservice to their sexual status. You're gay. We get it. Now STFU. We don't care.

You know, what you have said above...is what creates the biggest problem for most gay people, with straight people.

The small percentage who go out and flaunt their stuff, and do overt public displays of "gayness" - can't even call it "affection", as it's more of an "in your face, look at me doing the wild thing with my partner of the moment". Whereas the majority, go to work, raise families, have social events, etc, etc, etc, just like straight people. And, just like straight people, behave in a normal way befitting the situation they are in.

It's that small percentage's behavior that paints all with the same brush. No different than any other group being portrayed by the actions of a few.

I work with a couple of gay guys, neither one of which would walk bare-assed down a public street, or act like they are going to have sex right out there in front of everyone.

One has been in the same relationship for at least 25 years. They adopted 2 bi-racial children as infants, the one has been a Realtor for about 16 years and the other one is an accountant.  

The other one, as been in a couple of very long term relationships in the 14 years that I have known him, and been devastated when the first one ended...just as if he got a divorce. He's been with his current partner close to 10 years. He was a teacher for years before he became a full-time Realtor. I didn't even know he was gay for several months after I started working in the same office with him. Now, I don't know if it's more obvious because he is more obvious or because I know that he is gay.

I don't give a rat's patoot what a gay couple does in the privacy of their own space. Just as I don't care what straight couples do. It's none of my business.

But I don't want to see anyone....straight or gay...doing the wild thing. Or their naked tushies...unless I make the decision to do so.

I made my first venture into a strip club, EVER....in Key West, about 6 years ago....I found the whole experience fascinating!! But it was MY choice to go there.

It's one thing to put one's ADULT self into situation to see crazy, blatant, sexuality by either sex regardless of sexual orientation, (Mardi Gras in NOLA or Fantasy Fest in Key West)...it's a totally different situation to have it unknowingly show up right in front of you, with or without children in tow.

[Rebel]

I made my first venture into a strip club, EVER....in Key West, about 6 years ago....I found the whole experience fascinating!! But it was MY choice to go there.

Pics, or it didn't happen. 

[Rebel]

I agree - but I'm not saying we should give homosexuals the right to marry based on parades.

I don't believe gays have a "right" to marry. I don't believe straight people have a "right" to marry. I also don't believe a government has a "right" to recognize a marriage. Marriage is a union between two people. That's it. The government has no business getting involved, and there's no reason it has to be defined as a "right".

[debk]

Pics, or it didn't happen. 

Can't take pics in a strip club.

I think I have a couple from when I went to The 801 Bourbon Bar to the cabaret show, if that counts.

I had a front row seat. Very embarassing when one of the performers looks at you...early in the show, and says...."Honey, you've never been in a place like this before have you?" I'm sure it had nothing to do with the slightly stunned look on my face and my eyes as wide open as possible, being accompanied by 4 other women who had all seen drag shows before, and 2 gay guys we "picked up" at the Hot Pepper Store...and every one of us slightly intoxicated.   I had a blast!!

Ran in to him a couple of months later, when we were both at the Delta counter getting tickets to get the heck out of Dodge before Wilma hit. I only recognized him by his voice....who knew under all the makeup looking like Bette Midler was a little, slightly balding,  cherub faced 40 year old? He on the other hand recognized me as the "virgin visitor" who tipped realllllly well.