Why I am not a Libertarian.

[Carl]

Ah yes, we did -- the whole wrap myself in the Constitution, but don't you dare ask me to defend it argument. http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,37537.0/highlight,draft.html

Yet another nonsense argument of the Libertarians.

It would seem that the basis for this "plank" is that since it would but one under the authority of a federal government that shouldn`t exist it must be eliminated from any thought.
Couple that with the fantasy that the military would only need to exist to defend against direct continental invasion one would not have a military of any size.

That this flies in the face of world realities and economics is notwithstanding but gives rise to the notion that terrorism is the result of our presence in the middle east and support of Israel.

[Chump]

Ah yes, we did -- the whole wrap myself in the Constitution, but don't you dare ask me to defend it argument. http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,37537.0/highlight,draft.html

Yet another nonsense argument of the Libertarians.

If anyone were talking about "asking," we wouldn't even be having a discussion.  Dutch wants mandatory national service.  Mandatory as in, compulsory, forced at the end of a gun held by the United States government.  You agree?

[Chris_]

the above two responses are why, in part, I am not a Libertarian.

Yes... you definitely come off more like a socialist or communist with the "everyone should be forced to serve" argument.  Why can't you see that?  You are active duty?  You are supposed to be defending the right of the American people to be free to choose their own paths, be it annoyingly unpatriotic or willing to serve.  WTF dude??  Oh, and to head off any controversy that I don't know what the f2ck I'm talking about, I've served my country, here and abroad, my ENTIRE life, from being a dependent of a 25 year veteran to working for the military since age 16.  For me, unlike you it seems, it enforced my belief that Americans should be free from dictatorship.

Ah yes, we did -- the whole wrap myself in the Constitution, but don't you dare ask me to defend it argument. http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,37537.0/highlight,draft.html

Yet another nonsense argument of the Libertarians.

Er..No one is saying you can't ASK them to defend it. 

[dutch508]

Yes... you definitely come off more like a socialist or communist with the "everyone should be forced to serve" argument.  Why can't you see that?  You are active duty?  You are supposed to be defending the right of the American people to be free to choose their own paths, be it annoyingly unpatriotic or willing to serve.  WTF dude??  Oh, and to head off any controversy that I don't know what the f2ck I'm talking about, I've served my country, here and abroad, my ENTIRE life, from being a dependent of a 25 year veteran to working for the military since age 16.  For me, unlike you it seems, it enforced my belief that Americans should be free from dictatorship.

Er..No one is saying you can't ASK them to defend it. 

Active duty, enlisted when I was 17. 28 years and counting. Suck it bitch.

[Chris_]

Active duty, enlisted when I was 17. 28 years and counting. Suck it bitch.

Um, yeah, about that...I'll pass.   

[Eupher]

Bully, you ever serve in uniform? That's a straight up, yes or no question.

[formerlurker]

Er..No one is saying you can't ASK them to defend it. 

Oops, my bad..... force them to defend it.   Read the thread I linked.

[formerlurker]

If anyone were talking about "asking," we wouldn't even be having a discussion.  Dutch wants mandatory national service.  Mandatory as in, compulsory, forced at the end of a gun held by the United States government.  You agree?

Although I think Israel has a good military service program that involves the two year mandatory service, I would probably pass on this.   I would like to keep our military voluntary unless necessary to draft. 

[formerlurker]

For the record, public school honor societies mandate community service.... oh the horror. 

[Chris_]

For the record, public school honor societies mandate community service.... oh the horror. 

Not at all.  They are children and therefore subject to dictatorship.   

[formerlurker]

Not at all.  They are children and therefore subject to dictatorship.   

Very true. 

[Chump]

Public school honor societies mandate community service therefore let's have the government mandate national service?  What the **** is going on here?

Look, I'll concede.  You guys are totally right about this compulsory, civilian national service idea.  Just come up with a catchy name like the Civilian National Defense Corps or Civilian National Service Corps, something along those lines.  I'm sure everything will be fine, especially since the government is running it.  It's for the children!

[formerlurker]

Public school honor societies mandate community service therefore let's have the government mandate national service?  What the **** is going on here?

Look, I'll concede.  You guys are totally right about this compulsory, civilian national service idea.  Just come up with a catchy name like the Civilian National Defense Corps or Civilian National Service Corps, something along those lines.  I'm sure everything will be fine, especially since the government is running it.  It's for the children!

Didn't say that, but you need to rant so have at it.

[Chump]

Didn't say that, but you need to rant so have at it.

Why would you offer up such nonsense as a defense?

[formerlurker]

Chump: I have a right to life, liberty and all things me with someone else ensuring I maintain that right.


Sounds a wee bit leftist to me sport.  

[formerlurker]

Why would you offer up such nonsense as a defense?

As a defense?  no.   Simply pointing out that mandatory service is infused into our very public society on some levels.   

[Chris_]

Very true. 

My son's school system has mandatory community service for all students, not just honor society.  It's a graduation requirement. 

[formerlurker]

My son's school system has mandatory community service for all students, not just honor society.  It's a graduation requirement. 

we should do that in our District.  I think it is good for the students, who are kind of pampered for the most part. 

[thundley4]

My son's school system has mandatory community service for all students, not just honor society.  It's a graduation requirement. 

Quite a few colleges are requiring it now.

[formerlurker]

Quite a few colleges are requiring it now.

I know most of the private schools are (especially the Catholic and Jesuit Colleges).  I didn't know that state colleges were too, which is very interesting and good.

[Chump]

Chump: I have a right to life, liberty and all things me with someone else ensuring I maintain that right.


Sounds a wee bit leftist to me sport.  

formerlurker, dutch, et al: The government should compel its citizens to involuntary servitude for a period of time, because we think it's a good idea.  

Sounds bat-shit crazy fascist to me.

As a defense?  no.   Simply pointing out that mandatory service is infused into our very public society on some levels.  

I wouldn't hold up anything about the public school system as a defense of anything, to me at least.  But while we're at it...  You're talking about children in school while I'm talking about government compulsion as a matter of course in how it treats its citizens.  You're comparing apples and purple.

[TheSarge]

Spare me your pathetic attempt at a contrite 'greatful' meme.

My thought is everyone should do two years of national service, period. You want to then off-set the cost of college, fine. Two years of your life to work on the country's needs doesn't sound retarded to me, ****nuts. You don't want to serve in the military? That's fine. We have a whole bunch more service related organizations for you. Maybe you could do two years in the Forestry Service?  Or maybe in a social work role at a hospital? It would kind of depend on what you wanted to do. BUT- what it would do is give you a firm foundation in owning a piece of this nation, rather than expecting it to give you something.

Kids would be getting an education in the real world, working a real job. They'd be better prepared to go to college, or into the regular workforce at age 20 than at age 18. Plus, they may well have a bit of money socked away- not to mention experience.

But...that would mean putting something besides yourself first, wouldn't it?

Works for me.

[formerlurker]

formerlurker, dutch, et al: The government should compel its citizens to involuntary servitude for a period of time, because we think it's a good idea.  

Sounds bat-shit crazy fascist to me.

Where did I say that?  

I wouldn't hold up anything about the public school system as a defense of anything, to me at least.  But while we're at it...  You're talking about children in school while I'm talking about government compulsion as a matter of course in how it treats its citizens.  You're comparing apples and purple.

Point too complicated to grasp?  

You don't want to serve your country.  We all totally get it.  Stop trying to validate it by wrapping the Constitution around your argument as the Consitution is just a piece of paper if there is no force behind it to enforce it.   Perhaps Obama should throw the keys to Germany and Japan with many apologies... so sorry, the war was an illegal one as we drafted soldiers to fight it.  Here take our country as we retained it with misbegotten means.

[Chris_]

Quite a few colleges are requiring it now.

It's a really great thing, because the kids can choose whatever they want to concentrate on, it has to be approved by their homeroom teachers but there is no predesignated list of approved services.  One kid volunteers at the little league snack bar, another in the community garden, another at the nursing home where her relative is.  I think it shows kids you can give back to your community and have it be a fun experience.  It doesn't have to feel oppressive to help others.

Chump:  sorry to bring the school service up.  I realize it's slightly veering off topic but I do feel it is related somewhat.  My point is that if we raise our children to appreciate community service and country, they may feel compelled to serve it as adults.  If we take responsibility for our children they won't 'need' the government to 'rule' them as adults because they'll be making their own decisions to give back to the community or serve their country.

[Chris_]

Works for me.

It works for me too.  As long as it's voluntary.