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Offline NHSparky

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2009, 08:31:04 PM »
Well, what the ****, guys.  If I had kids, I guess I'd teach them to murder in cold blood.

After all, as bkg says, "Morals and laws are not always, nor should they be, the same."

Lemme just swing my ****in fist around and screw your nose if it gets in the way, right?
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2009, 08:37:41 PM »
Quote from: DixieBelle on October 30, 2009, 08:19:03 PM
I did say I'd like to see all of the facts.

And I think the take away here is not that this about endorsing nanny statism but rather correcting a HORRIBLY written law!!!

What would the full text of the law read if you were the one writing it?
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2009, 08:40:57 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on October 30, 2009, 08:37:41 PM
What would the full text of the law read if you were the one writing it?

Show hard core porn to children under 18 and you become Bubba's bitch in the state pen for 3-5 years.

Gee, that wasn't so hard, was it?  Then again, that's what Bubba said.
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Offline IassaFTots

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2009, 08:42:35 PM »
Quote from: NHSparky on October 30, 2009, 08:31:04 PM
Well, what the ****, guys.  If I had kids, I guess I'd teach them to murder in cold blood.

After all, as bkg says, "Morals and laws are not always, nor should they be, the same."

Lemme just swing my ****** fist around and screw your nose if it gets in the way, right?


Please understand.  I am not condoning the father's behavior.  I firmly believe that this should be an impetus toward full custody for the mother, and any visitation with the father needs to be restricted and supervised, if best, at all.  I do not think that the law requires changing, or more definition.  I do not believe that reframing this law or making another is the solution.  Not everything will or should be governed by law.  Morals and Laws are two different animals, and should be treated as such.  IMHO, of course.  
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2009, 08:43:32 PM »
Quote from: IassaFTots on October 30, 2009, 08:42:35 PM

Please understand.  I am not condoning the father's behavior.  I firmly believe that this should be an impetus toward full custody for the mother, and any visitation with the father needs to be restricted and supervised, if best, at all.  I do not think that the law requires changing, or more definition.  I do not believe that reframing this law or making another is the solution.  Not everything will or should be governed by law.  Morals and Laws are two different animals, and should be treated as such.  IMHO, of course.  

Well, therein lies the big problem.  Just because something might be LEGAL doesn't make it RIGHT.
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Offline Chump

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2009, 08:48:43 PM »
I don't get the impression that anyone here is questioning whether or not what this man did is technically legal.  How could it be questioned?  It's factually true that Texas specifically defines this action as legal.  Whether that will remain the case is yet to be seen, but any new law couldn't be applied retroactively anyway, making it a moot point.  No law was broken.

Common sense should prevail, however.  Drinking alcohol as an adult is legal.  Being an alcoholic is legal.  Children are exposed to adults drinking alcohol quite frequently; there are commercials on TV, ads in magazines.  And yet, faced with credible evidence that one parent is an alcoholic, no sane family court judge would allow unsupervised visitation by that parent.  It is not in the children's best interest regarding their safety and development.  Neither is being shown hardcore pornography.

Of course, I'm assuming a lot of things, mainly that this happened exactly as reported.  Fat chance, right?  Barring new information, my position remains the same, except for my hyperbole about cutting off his nuts.  Give me a blade and it becomes a different story.  Maybe it wouldn't for a few people here, which is why we leave decisions of this nature to a court system operating from an objective set of laws.
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Offline IassaFTots

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2009, 08:52:13 PM »
Quote from: NHSparky on October 30, 2009, 08:43:32 PM
Well, therein lies the big problem.  Just because something might be LEGAL doesn't make it RIGHT.

Yup.  But I also don't believe that we need more laws to make everything we think is Not right, illegal. Because, what is right to me, might be not right to you, and so on and so forth and yada yada yada. 

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2009, 08:57:09 PM »
Quote from: IassaFTots on October 30, 2009, 08:52:13 PM
Yup.  But I also don't believe that we need more laws to make everything we think is Not right, illegal. Because, what is right to me, might be not right to you, and so on and so forth and yada yada yada. 


Who said anything about "more laws to make everything we think is Not right, illegal"?  This is about one, specific, screwed up law that needs to be fixed so it cannot happen again.

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Offline Odin's Hand

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2009, 08:57:27 PM »
Boy howdy. St. Augustine's City of God: Book 2 here we come.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 09:03:13 PM by Odin's Hand »
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2009, 08:58:56 PM »
Define "harmful material" from a legal perspective.

I've heard some psychologists claim that violent video games make kids have a tendancy to be violent.  I've heard the same about music with violent lyrics.

Are these forms of media "harmful material"?  I honestly don't know.

Should there be a law making them illegal?  Some Christain groups say yes.  

Quote
This isn't about determining different shades of gray here.

That is exactly what it is.  Who decides what is harmful?  Using what criteria?

Quote
After all, as bkg says, "Morals and laws are not always, nor should they be, the same."


She is quite correct.  Or do you want Muslim morals to be codified into our law?

Different folks have different morals.  A great deal of caution should be used when attempting to codify them into law.

I certainly do not approve of what this guy allegedly did.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2009, 09:01:13 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on October 30, 2009, 08:58:56 PM
.....

That is exactly what it is.  Who decides what is harmful?  Using what criteria?
.....
Once again, this is about one specific subject.  There are no shades of gray here.  Understand now?
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2009, 09:04:42 PM »
Quote from: NHSparky on October 30, 2009, 08:40:57 PM
Show hard core porn to children under 18 and you become Bubba's bitch in the state pen for 3-5 years.

Gee, that wasn't so hard, was it?  Then again, that's what Bubba said.

what would the legal definition of "hard core porn" be in your law?  See my previous post where even a supreme court justice couldn't define it beyond "he knows it when he sees it".

Why the age of 18?  The legal age of consent is under 18 in most states IIRC.  So it is legal for them to do the deed, but not see others do it under your law?
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2009, 09:08:23 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on October 30, 2009, 09:04:42 PM
what would the legal definition of "hard core porn" be in your law?  See my previous post where even a supreme court justice couldn't define it beyond "he knows it when he sees it".

Why the age of 18?  The legal age of consent is under 18 in most states IIRC.  So it is legal for them to do the deed, but not see others do it under your law?
Can you write a specific legal definition for good music, or do you just know it when you hear it?
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Offline Chump

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2009, 09:09:01 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on October 30, 2009, 09:04:42 PM
what would the legal definition of "hard core porn" be in your law?  See my previous post where even a supreme court justice couldn't define it beyond "he knows it when he sees it".

Why the age of 18?  The legal age of consent is under 18 in most states IIRC.  So it is legal for them to do the deed, but not see others do it under your law?

The only purpose of laws (ideally) is to protect basic rights.  Were any rights infringed upon in this case?
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2009, 09:13:19 PM »
Quote from: lug-nut on October 30, 2009, 09:01:13 PM
Once again, this is about one specific subject.  There are no shades of gray here.  Understand now?


Make that one specific incident.  There are always shades of gray.  No one here is condoning this man's actions.  This is mostly a debate/conversation about whether the Texas law on this issue needs to be changed. (at least from my perspective).

Understand now?

[I am just as capable at being condescending as you are, so let's not eh?]
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 09:18:34 PM by rich_t »
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2009, 09:16:07 PM »
Quote from: lug-nut on October 30, 2009, 09:08:23 PM
Can you write a specific legal definition for good music, or do you just know it when you hear it?


I only know the type of music that I personally like to listen to, as I suspect it is with most folks.  So I would never attempt to legally define good music.  Calls for far too much subjective opinion to be written into law IMO.

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Offline IassaFTots

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2009, 09:17:44 PM »
Quote from: lug-nut on October 30, 2009, 08:57:09 PM
Who said anything about "more laws to make everything we think is Not right, illegal"?  This is about one, specific, screwed up law that needs to be fixed so it cannot happen again.




Ok, instead of "more laws" exchange that with "rewriting laws."  Pardon, as my debate skills are not as honed as some of you that have been participating in this type forum for quite some time.  What I am TRYING to say is that the law was written in a way so that parents retained their parental rights.  Now granted, I sincerely doubt that the law was written in order to pardon parents showing their children hard core porn.   I do not think that rewriting the law is the answer.  I get very squirrely everytime a new law is proposed, or an old one is rewritten, because I am very hesitant to have another person or group of people define what they think is right or wrong for me.  Interpretation, of what is offensive to one and not another seems to be a very slippery slope.  I don't think I am a person qualified to judge, and probably most of us aren't.  

The basic-ness of what I am saying is that I do not believe we need more laws or more defining of the ones we have.  We have more than enough already.  My most recent point would be the Hate Crime legislation.  Why isn't killing someone bad enough?  Don't you think there is some level of hate involved in every murder?  But I digress...

It has been a long day, and I am probably blabbering and not making much sense.  I will do my best to regroup, and gather my thoughts in a more intelligent manner, over some coffee, but the gist will be the same.

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Offline rich_t

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2009, 09:24:53 PM »
Quote from: Chump on October 30, 2009, 09:09:01 PM
The only purpose of laws (ideally) is to protect basic rights.  Were any rights infringed upon in this case?

Man, did you ever just open up a whole new can of worms.

Excellent point though.  Should add an entirely different dimension to the discussion.

 :popcorn:
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 09:26:32 PM by rich_t »
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Offline IassaFTots

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2009, 09:27:04 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on October 30, 2009, 09:24:53 PM
Man, did you ever just open up a whole new can of worms.

 :popcorn:

Now I know I am done with this for the night. :o
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Offline Chump

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2009, 09:39:04 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on October 30, 2009, 09:24:53 PM
Man, did you ever just open up a whole new can of worms.

 :popcorn:

Heh, well that's the crux of the matter, no?  I can sense the outrage of the parents here, clearly.  "How dare you show my daughter pornography!  I'll ****ing kill you!"  And I'm inclined to agree.  We also have examples of divorced parents who get pissed at one another because a child is allowed to stay up later than normal, or drink soda.  I don't mean to belittle the case by comparing it to drinking a beverage, but it does illustrate the point pretty clearly.  IIRC, a child is not allowed to view pornographic material via state and federal statutes, but I have no idea if the law mentions being accompanied by a parent as a qualification.

This is a tough one for me.  If what is alleged is true, this man is a scumbag and deserves no parental visitation rights.  But, did he infringe on anyone's actual basic rights?  In my opinion, no.  There are a host of variables that could change my stance (did he actually force them to watch while they were wiggling to get away, did he touch them, was this a regular occurrence, and on and on).  But, with the little information I have, I have to say no.
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Offline Chump

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2009, 09:44:26 PM »
Quote
According to the Texas penal code passage, "harmful material" such as pornography is considered defensible from prosecution if "the sale, distribution, or exhibition to a minor who was accompanied by a consenting parent, adult, or spouse."

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/nation/prosecutor-says-he-cant-charge-father-because-texas-law-lets-parents-view-porn-with-children-67353502.html
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Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

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Offline Odin's Hand

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2009, 10:04:19 PM »
Quote from: Chump on October 30, 2009, 09:44:26 PM
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/nation/prosecutor-says-he-cant-charge-father-because-texas-law-lets-parents-view-porn-with-children-67353502.html

So, the rights of the father to subject his children to pornography supercede the rights of the mother from Texas Penal Code Sec. 151.001. Sub. Sec. A. Articles 1-2. ?  :mental:
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Offline Chump

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2009, 10:08:11 PM »
Quote from: Odin's Hand on October 30, 2009, 10:04:19 PM
So, the rights of the father to subject his children to pornography supercede the rights of the mother from  Texas Penal Code Sec. 151.001. a . 1-2. ?  :mental:


I've said repeatedly that he should lose his visitation rights in some form or manner, barring new information.  Do you think he should be imprisoned?
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Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

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Offline Odin's Hand

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2009, 10:10:57 PM »
Quote from: Chump on October 30, 2009, 10:08:11 PM
I've said repeatedly that he should lose his visitation rights in some form or manner, barring new information.  Do you think he should be imprisoned?

I wasn't specifically calling you out, just, the piss-poor language of the statute. I do think that the mother should get a few free cracks at his noggin' with a rolling pin, though.
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Offline jinxmchue

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Re: Texas Law Challenged After Man Allegedly Forces Daughters to Watch 'Hardcore Por
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2009, 10:11:11 PM »
Bouncing Buddha on a stick!  It's frickin' DU here.  Sell porn to minors = bad, illegal.  Show porn to minors = good, free speech.  **** y'all.  It's because of that damned "Short bus" forum, isn't it?
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