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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2009, 10:21:33 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on February 04, 2009, 10:17:55 PM
War of Southern Insolence????

A tad over the top don't ya think?

As opposed to the standard "War of Northern Aggression" label used by Southerners?

It was Southern Insolence that started the Civil War -- which killed proportionally more Americans than any other war in our history.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2009, 10:22:05 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on February 04, 2009, 10:20:58 PM
Only the incredibly ignorant think that the Civil War was about slavery.
It was a major factor -- to say otherwise is just revisionist.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2009, 10:23:21 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 10:14:16 PM
Who the **** cares? It was ruled on 4 years after the end of the war between the states. Do you normally use current rulings to decide past cases?  :whatever:

I'll take that as a "no."

Of course, there is no subsequent re-rendering so I am not quite sure what standard you feel should be used.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2009, 10:24:03 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:21:33 PM
As opposed to the standard "War of Northern Aggression" label used by Southerners?

It was Southern Insolence that started the Civil War -- which killed proportionally more Americans than any other war in our history.


Who declared war on whom?  Who was the orignal aggressor?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 10:27:06 PM by rich_t »
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2009, 10:26:06 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:17:59 PM
Yes, it was the Southern States deciding they were more important than their agreements.  They had plenty of representation, as defined in the USC.  They were not singled out for special under-representation and it was by the grace of Lincoln that they were not made "Junior States" which most of the North wanted.

You owe Lincoln a great debt of gratitude.

We don't owe Lincoln shit. We were being taxed disproportionately. I view the South as occupied territory and I think we've been gracious occupants. If it weren't for us, you'd ALWAYS be stuck with someone like Carter. Maybe it's you conservatives who live in Moonbat, U.S.A. who owe us a debt of gratitude because I can assure you, we in the South, and the Midwest? We want no part of Moonbat, U.S.A.

**** Lincoln. He turned his army on a sovereign nation to protect his revenue flow.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2009, 10:26:18 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:22:05 PM
It was a major factor -- to say otherwise is just revisionist.


Actually it wasn't.  But Lincoln did a great job of selling it that way.


IMO anyway.


« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 10:28:03 PM by rich_t »
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2009, 10:27:54 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:20:02 PM
That is what makes a Union.  If the going get tough, it is important that the Union hold together.  There is no escape clause, as much as you want to invent one.

Some decisions are irreversible.  I remind you -- AGAIN -- joining the Union was voluntary.

Again....

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A little-known fact of the Constitution is that two of the largest states -- Virginia and New York -- made the right to withdraw from the union explicit in their acceptance of the Constitution. And in such an agreement between parties as is represented by the Constitution, a right claimed by one is allowed to all.

Yes, joining the union was voluntary. LEAVING the union was ALSO voluntary so long as the PEOPLE, per the 10th Amendment, elected to do so.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2009, 10:28:56 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:21:33 PM
As opposed to the standard "War of Northern Aggression" label used by Southerners?

It was Southern Insolence that started the Civil War -- which killed proportionally more Americans than any other war in our history.


How was it NOT a war of Northern aggression? If you Yankee sumbitches would have just left us the **** alone, there would have BEEN no Civil War.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2009, 10:29:55 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:22:05 PM
It was a major factor -- to say otherwise is just revisionist.


Yeah? And the Northern, Slave-holding states? You know, the ones that didn't see theirs freed until 1866....a full year after the war ended? You do know the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the south, right?
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2009, 10:30:04 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 10:26:06 PM
We don't owe Lincoln shit. We were being taxed disproportionately. I view the South as occupied territory and I think we've been gracious occupants. If it weren't for us, you'd ALWAYS be stuck with someone like Carter. Maybe it's you conservatives who live in Moonbat, U.S.A. who owe us a debt of gratitude because I can assure you, we in the South, and the Midwest? We want no part of Moonbat, U.S.A.

**** Lincoln. He turned his army on a sovereign nation to protect his revenue flow.

What???  OK, you have gone from revisionist to stark raving barking.  The South may be a bastion of Conservatism (and I make no claim otherwise), but it was Lincoln that provided the framework to ensure it would return to its previous, pre-war status.

The confederacy was never a "sovereign nation" -- and it has proven to be to its benefit.
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2009, 10:31:16 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:23:21 PM
I'll take that as a "no."

Of course, there is no subsequent re-rendering so I am not quite sure what standard you feel should be used.

I assumed you were smart enough to get it, but I guess not. You don't use a ****ing case in 1869 to decide a case 8 years earlier. Texas was also a different case as they were, at one time, their own country.
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2009, 10:33:11 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:30:04 PM
What???  OK, you have gone from revisionist to stark raving barking.  The South may be a bastion of Conservatism (and I make no claim otherwise), but it was Lincoln that provided the framework to ensure it would return to its previous, pre-war status.

The confederacy was never a "sovereign nation" -- and it has proven to be to its benefit.

Lincoln was BY FAR a conservative. He was a big government federalist, and yes, the CSA WAS a sovereign nation. What, we were supposed to ask permission?

Then stop bitching about Obama right now. He is, afterall, your ruler.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2009, 10:34:30 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 10:31:16 PM
I assumed you were smart enough to get it, but I guess not. You don't use a ****ing case in 1869 to decide a case 8 years earlier. Texas was also a different case as they were, at one time, their own country.

But the result applies and has applied subsequently. Or are you arguing that a ruling 100 years ago that has not been overturned is not applicable now?  It is you who are applying things currently.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2009, 10:36:37 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 10:33:11 PM
Lincoln was BY FAR a conservative. He was a big government federalist, and yes, the CSA WAS a sovereign nation. What, we were supposed to ask permission?

Then stop bitching about Obama right now. He is, afterall, your ruler.

back through the loop -- the CSA was never a sovereign, the states attempted to renege on their agreements, it would have been terrible for it had it succeeded and attempting to link my knowledge of history with the new fuhrer is rather childish on your part.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2009, 10:39:33 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:36:37 PM
back through the loop -- the CSA was never a sovereign, the states attempted to renege on their agreements, it would have been terrible for it had it succeeded and attempting to link my knowledge of history with the new fuhrer is rather childish on your part.


By that same argument, the 13 colonies weren't - and it could be argued, still aren't - sovereign states, as they renegged on their original agreements (their colonial charters).
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2009, 10:42:18 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:34:30 PM
But the result applies and has applied subsequently. Or are you arguing that a ruling 100 years ago that has not been overturned is not applicable now?  It is you who are applying things currently.

Rulings don't overturn nor overrule the Constitution. Well, not in my conservative mind. Maybe your fence-sitting mind, but not mine.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2009, 10:44:31 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:36:37 PM
back through the loop -- the CSA was never a sovereign, the states attempted to renege on their agreements, it would have been terrible for it had it succeeded and attempting to link my knowledge of history with the new fuhrer is rather childish on your part.


One more time Freedumb....

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...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

Yes, the CSA was sovereign as it was the government founded by the free people of the states of the CSA.

Wanna know why people will see you as losing this argument? Because we're bringing up facts. You're posting mere opinions and conjecture.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2009, 10:46:49 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 10:42:18 PM
Rulings don't overturn nor overrule the Constitution. Well, not in my conservative mind. Maybe your fence-sitting mind, but not mine.

Ah -- so you just support rulings that support YOUR view of the USC.  Why even have the SCOTUS, since we have you to interpret the USC?
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2009, 10:51:04 PM »
Quote from: freedumb2003 on February 04, 2009, 10:46:49 PM
Ah -- so you just support rulings that support YOUR view of the USC.  Why even have the SCOTUS, since we have you to interpret the USC?

Do you really need the USC to tell you what the Constitution says?

THE USC has been wrong in the past.  Dred Scott comes to mind.

Thank God I can read it for myself and understand what it actually means without a bunch of APPOINTED lawyers to tell me.
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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2009, 10:51:30 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 04, 2009, 10:44:31 PM
One more time Freedumb....

Yes, the CSA was sovereign as it was the government founded by the free people of the states of the CSA.

Wanna know why people will see you as losing this argument? Because we're bringing up facts. You're posting mere opinions and conjecture.
100% of your argumentation is conjecture.  It is I who have posited the facts, which you have ignored.  Which part of voluntary do you not understand?  Which part of Union do you not understand?  You attempt to apply one set of circumstances to another just doesn't fly.

Well, it is late.  Feel free to post your next feeble attempt at a response and I'll check it in the morning.

Just don't try to link my understanding of history with some sort of nefarious like of the current fuhrer or his reichstag -- that isn't accurate and shows a certain DU-style desperation on your part.
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Offline djones520

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2009, 11:09:48 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on February 04, 2009, 10:26:18 PM
Actually it wasn't.  But Lincoln did a great job of selling it that way.


IMO anyway.




Bullshit it wasn't.  Read the letters of secession lately?  The second ****ing sentence of Georgia's letter clearly says it's an issue between Slave holding and non slave holding states.  Mississippi?  "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth." Second and third sentences.  Texas and South Carolina's follows those same lines as well.

The war was not fought solely on the basis of Slavery, but it WAS a large part of the war.  The States split because they didn't like the Federal Government tampering with their "right" to enslave fellow humans.  They claim it was a state rights issue, but it was still about protecting revenues, which is exactly what those slaves provided.

Rebel, you contend that Lincoln "invaded" the south to protect his wallet.  Well thats EXACTLY why the South split.  You can get all holier then thou all you want about the states rights bullshit, but it was all about money.  Them damn Yankees were taking their easy cash flow away, and they didn't like it.  So they tried to mask it behind the Constitution, and split because of it.  Then they attacked Federal military installations, which as far as any of us who have ever worn the uniform of our nation should be concerned, was a total act of war.

The South fired the first shots.  The North just fired the last.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:11:20 PM by djones520 »
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2009, 11:20:23 PM »
[youtube=425,350]http://youtube.com/watch?v=vCC9VHk13JY&feature=related[/youtube]
.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2009, 11:24:52 PM »
Quote from: djones520 on February 04, 2009, 11:09:48 PM
Bullshit it wasn't.  Read the letters of secession lately?  The second ******* sentence of Georgia's letter clearly says it's an issue between Slave holding and non slave holding states.  Mississippi?  "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth." Second and third sentences.  Texas and South Carolina's follows those same lines as well.

The war was not fought solely on the basis of Slavery, but it WAS a large part of the war.  The States split because they didn't like the Federal Government tampering with their "right" to enslave fellow humans.  They claim it was a state rights issue, but it was still about protecting revenues, which is exactly what those slaves provided.

Rebel, you contend that Lincoln "invaded" the south to protect his wallet.  Well thats EXACTLY why the South split.  You can get all holier then thou all you want about the states rights bullshit, but it was all about money.  Them damn Yankees were taking their easy cash flow away, and they didn't like it.  So they tried to mask it behind the Constitution, and split because of it.  Then they attacked Federal military installations, which as far as any of us who have ever worn the uniform of our nation should be concerned, was a total act of war.

The South fired the first shots.  The North just fired the last.

I stand by my statement.  But then again I am willing to admit you and I probably read different history books in HS.

That war ended well over a hunderd years ago and I find it rather pointless to spend a great deal of time attempting to relive it.

Just out of curiousity...  You got a link to the letters of secession?

Perhaps I need to reread them.  It has been a while since I took a HS history class.
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Offline djones520

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2009, 11:27:53 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on February 04, 2009, 11:24:52 PM
I stand by my statement.  But then again I am willing to admit you and I probably read different history books in HS.

That war ended well over a hunderd years ago and I find it rather pointless to spend a great deal of time attempting to relive it.

Just out of curiousity...  You got a link to the letters of secession?

Perhaps I need to reread them.  It has been a while since I took a HS history class.

Yep, here you go.

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#Georgia
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2009, 11:34:31 PM »
This is a great site for researching CSA documents all in one spot:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/csapage.asp
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