Author Topic: Global Warming: In Practical Terms  (Read 21296 times)

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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2008, 05:36:19 PM »
Interesting what you find when you type in: "NASA computer models" on Newsbusters.....

http://newsbusters.org/search/google?cx=000670030471699741183%3Aydh8bjxaqui&cof=FORID%3A11&query=nasa+computer+models+&form_id=google_cse_results_searchbox_form#1066

Newsbusters is a political site, not a scientific site. Relying on political sites for information about scientific matters doesn't make sense to me.
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Offline djones520

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2008, 05:44:33 PM »
Interesting what you find when you type in: "NASA computer models" on Newsbusters.....

http://newsbusters.org/search/google?cx=000670030471699741183%3Aydh8bjxaqui&cof=FORID%3A11&query=nasa+computer+models+&form_id=google_cse_results_searchbox_form#1066

Newsbusters is a political site, not a scientific site. Relying on political sites for information about scientific matters doesn't make sense to me.


What is Al Gore?

Edit: And by the way, Newsbusters is just giving voice to reports written by NASA (you know, those scientists your asking for), since none of the other media outlets would.

Why don't you click on the link and see.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 05:52:02 PM by djones520 »
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2008, 06:31:01 PM »
What is Al Gore?

Al Gore is an activist. You won't catch me citing him as a source for anything I have to say about AGW.

Quote
Edit: And by the way, Newsbusters is just giving voice to reports written by NASA (you know, those scientists your asking for), since none of the other media outlets would.

The reason why people should avoid relying on Newsbusters for information about climate change is the same reason why I avoid relying on Al Gore for information about climate change. Don't get me wrong... I don't mind people relying on highly biased sources to point them to information about important developments in the study of global warming, but I do have a problem with people using information from highly biased sources as the basis for arguments about climate change.

Regarding NASA... NASA has done a lot of great work on global warming and most of it supports the conclusion that it is mostly anthropogenic in nature.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 06:33:27 PM by The Night Owl »
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Offline djones520

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2008, 06:52:26 PM »
TNO, as a Christian skeptic, I'd assume your a supporter of the theory of evolution.  And hence forth, you should be familiar with the rise of humanity from the hunters and gatherers of the ice ages, to what we are today.

So let me run a theory by you.  At the end of the last ice age, humanity experienced a massive population growth and civilizations began to rise, correct?

Why was this?  Well it was due to the use of agriculture.  The means of producing large amounts of food in a relatively easy manner meant more mouths could be fed, more free time, more time to think and invent.

So why was agriculture something that popped up at the end of the ice age and not before?  Because of all the CO2 that was released with the melting of the polar ice caps.



Notice that massive rise with CO2 levels just about 10,000 years ago?

So what I'm asking now is...  if so much CO2 was released then in a direct correlation with the rising of the earths temperatures, when mankind had no impact on it at that time....  Then how come the recent spikes in CO2 levels couldn't be associated with the melting of the current ice caps?  Why can't it be a symptom of global warming, instead of a cause of?

Temperatures are rising, global ice caps are receding, co2 levels are rising.  It's almost just like before...  but for some reason its now our fault?

At least so says the people who have invested millions of dollars into the corporations who stand to make money off of it...
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2008, 08:27:24 PM »

The nice thing about computer models of climate is that their accuracy can be checked as time passes. So far, computer models of climate change are holding up nicely when compared to observations of temperature...



Well.....get back to me when you have another couple of centuries of data.....

doc
...but wait...it's been "peer reviewed", so it just HAS to be true.  [/TNO mode]   :whatever:
Of course the fact that all those "peers" stand to gain financially from additional "research".   :censored:
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Offline Atomic Lib Smasher

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2008, 08:46:51 PM »
I say it this way... wanna get rid of global warming? Get rid of this....


As I pointed out in another thread, the sun has been ruled out as the primary culprit behind climate change. Solar irradiance has been more or less constant since 1948. 

Quote
Even Venus and Mars has global warming going on now.... anybody that buys into this "man made global warming" bullshit is either a liar or a sucker.

That planets go through natural warming cycles is not disputed by scientists. What scientists believe is going on now is either a natural warming cycle being significantly augmented by human activity or a warming cycle being caused mostly by human activity and augmented by natural factors.

Jesus Christ.....




I tell ya what. You believe in global warming? Guess what? You might be lucky! Just post all your credit card numbers, and if one of them comes up in the lotto, you win a prize!!! 



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Offline Attero Dominatus

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2008, 08:51:29 PM »
Those who blame global warming on humans have never considered that changes in the earth's orbit effect climate.

http://www.homepage.montana.edu/~geol445/hyperglac/time1/milankov.htm
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 11:32:48 PM by Attero Dominatus »
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2008, 08:53:05 PM »
I say it this way... wanna get rid of global warming? Get rid of this....


As I pointed out in another thread, the sun has been ruled out as the primary culprit behind climate change. Solar irradiance has been more or less constant since 1948. 

Quote
Even Venus and Mars has global warming going on now.... anybody that buys into this "man made global warming" bullshit is either a liar or a sucker.

That planets go through natural warming cycles is not disputed by scientists. What scientists believe is going on now is either a natural warming cycle being significantly augmented by human activity or a warming cycle being caused mostly by human activity and augmented by natural factors.

Jesus Christ.....




I tell ya what. You believe in global warming? Guess what? You might be lucky! Just post all your credit card numbers, and if one of them comes up in the lotto, you win a prize!!! 



:jerkit:
He believes in globalwarming but not Jesus Christ.   :loser:
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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2008, 10:57:28 PM »
What is Al Gore?

Al Gore is an activist. You won't catch me citing him as a source for anything I have to say about AGW.

Quote
Edit: And by the way, Newsbusters is just giving voice to reports written by NASA (you know, those scientists your asking for), since none of the other media outlets would.

The reason why people should avoid relying on Newsbusters for information about climate change is the same reason why I avoid relying on Al Gore for information about climate change. Don't get me wrong... I don't mind people relying on highly biased sources to point them to information about important developments in the study of global warming, but I do have a problem with people using information from highly biased sources as the basis for arguments about climate change.

Regarding NASA... NASA has done a lot of great work on global warming and most of it supports the conclusion that it is mostly anthropogenic in nature.
You clearly didn't read the links. Or grasp the concept of Newsbusters. And you assume that "people are relying on them" in lieu of going straight to the source. Again, you should spend some time checking the links to get the full story.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 10:59:30 PM by DixieBelle »
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2008, 11:27:23 PM »
Sadly, peer-reviewed science, and 'Scientific consensus' follows the Benjamins.  When there is grant money to study something, that thing will be found.  Let's think back to 1937 or so, when the heretofore highly-respected anthropologists and geneticists of Germany were producing widely-accepted papers finding racial superiority based on racial (or pseudo-racial) differences; that didn't actually turn out so well, as I recall, and in calmer times without the impetus of government support their conclusions didn't stand the test of time.

I believe TVDoc is on the right track in discussing global climate modeling; 'repeatability' in this context should probably be regarded as 'predictive value' since we don't have a control and experimental planet to screw around with.  So far the models aren't old enough, sophistciated enough, or with any track record whatsoever to convince anyone lacking blind faith in AGW of their validity.  Any dingdong can gen up a 'model' that accounts for the data set to date, and base it on coincident but causally-unrelated indicators; only the successful prediction of future activity will (provisionally) demonstrate that it is based on causally-relevant variables.

From my admittedly less-than-comprehensive reading on the global climate models, I have gleaned that they are really rather primitive oversimplifications, and wholly omit several factors that would have to be taken into account for them to have any legitimate predictive value.
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2008, 11:09:13 AM »
So let me run a theory by you.  At the end of the last ice age, humanity experienced a massive population growth and civilizations began to rise, correct?

Why was this?  Well it was due to the use of agriculture.  The means of producing large amounts of food in a relatively easy manner meant more mouths could be fed, more free time, more time to think and invent.

So why was agriculture something that popped up at the end of the ice age and not before?  Because of all the CO2 that was released with the melting of the polar ice caps.



Notice that massive rise with CO2 levels just about 10,000 years ago?

So what I'm asking now is...  if so much CO2 was released then in a direct correlation with the rising of the earths temperatures, when mankind had no impact on it at that time....  Then how come the recent spikes in CO2 levels couldn't be associated with the melting of the current ice caps?  Why can't it be a symptom of global warming, instead of a cause of?

Temperatures are rising, global ice caps are receding, co2 levels are rising.  It's almost just like before...  but for some reason its now our fault?

At least so says the people who have invested millions of dollars into the corporations who stand to make money off of it...

Exellent questions.

Okay... First, the resolution of the chart you posted makes reading it a little bit difficult. I think you're misreading where on the chart the really massive increase in CO2 takes place. Please take some time to view a blow up of the chart...

http://www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/gw/paleo/400000yrfig.htm

As you can see on the chart, the really massive increase in CO2, as represented by the vertical red line, takes place at 0, which is basically the past few decades.

The following chart gives us more detail about CO2 levels in the past 10,000 years..

http://www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/gw/paleo/20000yrfig.htm

As you can see on the chart, CO2 levels have been pretty steady for the past 10,000 years and start to rise sharply about 100 years ago- at the start of the industrial revolution.

How do we know that the CO2 in the atmosphere is ours? By using a process similar to carbon dating, scientists have been able to differentiate between CO2 which results from the burning of fossil fuels and natural CO2. A detailed explanation of how we know that the CO2 in the atmosphere comes from the burning of fossil fuels can be found in a post at Real Climate...

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=87

« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 11:39:25 AM by The Night Owl »
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2008, 11:15:25 AM »

He believes in globalwarming but not Jesus Christ.   :loser:


I believe that Jesus Christ existed. I don't believe that he was a divine being.

We have no scientific evidence that Christ was divine. We have a lot of scientific evidence that global warming is the result of human activities.
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2008, 11:17:13 AM »

...but wait...it's been "peer reviewed", so it just HAS to be true.  [/TNO mode]   :whatever:
Of course the fact that all those "peers" stand to gain financially from additional "research".   :censored:

As I have already stated, I fully acknowledge that all the science which supports the theory of AGW might be wrong. Do you acknowledge that your position on AGW might be wrong?
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2008, 11:26:43 AM »

...but wait...it's been "peer reviewed", so it just HAS to be true.  [/TNO mode]   :whatever:
Of course the fact that all those "peers" stand to gain financially from additional "research".   :censored:

As I have already stated, I fully acknowledge that all the science which supports the theory of AGW might be wrong. Do you acknowledge that your position on AGW might be wrong?

isn't the "burden of proof", so to speak, upon the global warming alarmists to prove that (a) the global climate is changing, and (b) the have correctly identified the cause?

my position on AGW is pretty much that the current "trendy" position on AGW is wrong.  I really don't have to prove an opposing theory, I just get to punch holes in yours. :-)


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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2008, 11:29:57 AM »
I might see if 'ole SouthGaEagle wants to join. He does something in this field. He has a B.S. from Mercer and an M.S. from USM, or vice-versa.
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #65 on: January 31, 2008, 11:30:55 AM »
isn't the "burden of proof", so to speak, upon the global warming alarmists to prove that (a) the global climate is changing, and (b) the have correctly identified the cause?

my position on AGW is pretty much that the current "trendy" position on AGW is wrong.  I really don't have to prove an opposing theory, I just get to punch holes in yours. :-)

The best way to punch holes in the theory that global warming is the result of human activity is to prove that it is natural. I haven't seen very strong evidence that the global warming we are experiencing today is natural.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 01:53:44 PM by Wretched Excess »

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2008, 11:31:43 AM »
I might see if 'ole SouthGaEagle wants to join. He does something in this field. He has a B.S. from Mercer and an M.S. from USM, or vice-versa.

The more the merrier.
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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2008, 11:34:20 AM »
Just vote for Hillary. She'll fix everything -  :whatever:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/01/bill-we-just-ha.html

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2008, 12:38:20 PM »

...but wait...it's been "peer reviewed", so it just HAS to be true.  [/TNO mode]   :whatever:
Of course the fact that all those "peers" stand to gain financially from additional "research".   :censored:

As I have already stated, I fully acknowledge that all the science which supports the theory of AGW might be wrong. Do you acknowledge that your position on AGW might be wrong?

The difference is that the wholesale embrace of so-called Human-caused AGW is costing money and liberty AS WE SPEAK.  It is a dangerous hypothesis.
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2008, 01:54:48 PM »
isn't the "burden of proof", so to speak, upon the global warming alarmists to prove that (a) the global climate is changing, and (b) the have correctly identified the cause?

my position on AGW is pretty much that the current "trendy" position on AGW is wrong.  I really don't have to prove an opposing theory, I just get to punch holes in yours. :-)

The best way to punch holes in the theory that global warming is the result of human activity is to prove that it is natural. I haven't seen very strong evidence that the global warming we are experiencing today is natural.



lunacy.  I can disprove a theory without having to present and prove an opposing theory.   :-) 

(I inadvertently edited your post instead of quoting it.  sorry. :thatsright:  I took my edit out)

Offline Chris_

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2008, 02:15:57 PM »
The difference is that the wholesale embrace of so-called Human-caused AGW is costing money and liberty AS WE SPEAK.  It is a dangerous hypothesis.

Bingo!

I, for one would likely concede the issue that some warming is occurring, seems to me that one degree Celsius  since the beginning of the 20th century has been discussed.  However, the data collected earlier than the advent of temperature measurements via wide-area satellite infrared spectronomy is suspect from the perspective of accuracy.  Until this technology was initiated, measurements were largely subjective, and as we are dealing with fractional increments of a degree over decades, I cannot accept that the data recorded (with mercury column thermometers) in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries are particularly convincing scientifically, when we are discussing such small changes, over relatively long periods of time.

The real danger occues when I hear supposed "men of science" stating that "the debate over AGW is over", and calling all dissenters essentially heretics.  Hell, in my area of physics, we are STILL debating many of Einstein's findings, and occasionally we will discuss the nuances of "Newtonian physics" (who, by the way, was wrong in a number of areas, after being held as a minor diety in physical science for nearly a century)....

The debate in real science is NEVER over.......

This rush to judgement is further complicated by politicians who see this pseudo-science as an opportunity to wrest more control from the citizens by imposing draconian measures (and raising taxes) to limit emissions levels on various perfectly natural substances.  Then, as mentioned by another poster, these same politicians commission "study grants" to more scientists to find more "evidence" to support the original premise, and EVERY scientist knows that if you begin any study with a preconcieved goal, the bias (regardless how slight) injected by this frontloading will render any result meaningless.  This creates a masturbatory circle that is clearly not science, but purely politics, aided by a large group of grant-seeking academics waiting in line to jump on the funding band wagon.  This is exactly where we are in the AGW discussion today.

There is, however, a ray of sunshine in this "doom shouting" scenario.....scientists without a vested interest are beginning to "push back", and are starting to inject some sanity into the discussion.  The interest groups and politicians that wanted to regulate everything from power plants to cow farts are beginning to feel some heat from their constituants when the "real costs" of their proposed regulations are finally disclosed.

Therefore, as a "practical matter", this scientist can only conclude the following.........

.......The earth may, in fact, be warming slightly, as it has countless times in the past.....

.......There is NO convincing evidence that this warming is the result of any human activity, in fact, temperature measurements more than fifty years old would not meet any sort of scientific accuracy test vis-a-vis establishment of a "global mean temperature" for that era......therefore any and all "computer models" based on such data are fatally flawed, and not to be considered valid for policy-making purposes.

.......Any scientist or politician that states that their is no further need to debate AGW should be immediately dismissed as a zealot......

.......Any regulatory action regarding GW should be delayed for at least the next five decades, at minimum.......until vastly improved computing capability and data avalibility are manifest.....

In the most practical terms this is where the subject needs to be couched........Liberals are free to worship "Gia" all they want, however, the subject is not really a matter of public policy for any thinking individual......

doc
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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2008, 02:17:34 PM »
isn't the "burden of proof", so to speak, upon the global warming alarmists to prove that (a) the global climate is changing, and (b) the have correctly identified the cause?

my position on AGW is pretty much that the current "trendy" position on AGW is wrong.  I really don't have to prove an opposing theory, I just get to punch holes in yours. :-)

The best way to punch holes in the theory that global warming is the result of human activity is to prove that it is natural. I haven't seen very strong evidence that the global warming we are experiencing today is natural.



lunacy.  I can disprove a theory without having to present and prove an opposing theory.   :-) 

(I inadvertently edited your post instead of quoting it.  sorry. :thatsright:  I took my edit out)

With great power comes great responsibility (LOL)
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2008, 02:19:17 PM »
The difference is that the wholesale embrace of so-called Human-caused AGW is costing money and liberty AS WE SPEAK.  It is a dangerous hypothesis.

Bingo!

I, for one would likely concede the issue that some warming is occurring, seems to me that one degree Celsius  since the beginning of the 20th century has been discussed.  However, the data collected earlier than the advent of temperature measurements via wide-area satellite infrared spectronomy is suspect from the perspective of accuracy.  Until this technology was initiated, measurements were largely subjective, and as we are dealing with fractional increments of a degree over decades, I cannot accept that the data recorded (with mercury column thermometers) in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries are particularly convincing scientifically, when we are discussing such small changes, over relatively long periods of time.

The real danger occues when I hear supposed "men of science" stating that "the debate over AGW is over", and calling all dissenters essentially heretics.  Hell, in my area of physics, we are STILL debating many of Einstein's findings, and occasionally we will discuss the nuances of "Newtonian physics" (who, by the way, was wrong in a number of areas, after being held as a minor diety in physical science for nearly a century)....

The debate in real science is NEVER over.......

This rush to judgement is further complicated by politicians who see this pseudo-science as an opportunity to wrest more control from the citizens by imposing draconian measures (and raising taxes) to limit emissions levels on various perfectly natural substances.  Then, as mentioned by another poster, these same politicians commission "study grants" to more scientists to find more "evidence" to support the original premise, and EVERY scientist knows that if you begin any study with a preconcieved goal, the bias (regardless how slight) injected by this frontloading will render any result meaningless.  This creates a masturbatory circle that is clearly not science, but purely politics, aided by a large group of grant-seeking academics waiting in line to jump on the funding band wagon.  This is exactly where we are in the AGW discussion today.

There is, however, a ray of sunshine in this "doom shouting" scenario.....scientists without a vested interest are beginning to "push back", and are starting to inject some sanity into the discussion.  The interest groups and politicians that wanted to regulate everything from power plants to cow farts are beginning to feel some heat from their constituants when the "real costs" of their proposed regulations are finally disclosed.

Therefore, as a "practical matter", this scientist can only conclude the following.........

.......The earth may, in fact, be warming slightly, as it has countless times in the past.....

.......There is NO convincing evidence that this warming is the result of any human activity, in fact, temperature measurements more than fifty years old would not meet any sort of scientific accuracy test vis-a-vis establishment of a "global mean temperature" for that era......therefore any and all "computer models" based on such data are fatally flawed, and not to be considered valid for policy-making purposes.

.......Any scientist or politician that states that their is no further need to debate AGW should be immediately dismissed as a zealot......

.......Any regulatory action regarding GW should be delayed for at least the next five decades, at minimum.......until vastly improved computing capability and data avalibility are manifest.....

In the most practical terms this is where the subject needs to be couched........Liberals are free to worship "Gia" all they want, however, the subject is not really a matter of public policy for any thinking individual......

doc


Great post doc -- s/b required reading for moonbats -- at least the resident ones.

(*clap clap clap*)
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Chris_

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2008, 02:22:23 PM »
isn't the "burden of proof", so to speak, upon the global warming alarmists to prove that (a) the global climate is changing, and (b) the have correctly identified the cause?

my position on AGW is pretty much that the current "trendy" position on AGW is wrong.  I really don't have to prove an opposing theory, I just get to punch holes in yours. :-)

The best way to punch holes in the theory that global warming is the result of human activity is to prove that it is natural. I haven't seen very strong evidence that the global warming we are experiencing today is natural.


That is a non-sequitur.  It is always the onus of the proposition to provide proof.  There is no onus to provide an alternative.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Global Warming: In Practical Terms
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2008, 02:40:07 PM »
Great post doc -- s/b required reading for moonbats -- at least the resident ones.

(*clap clap clap*)


(....takes bow.....exits stage right.....)
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.