Author Topic: Are Climategaters Still Lying?  (Read 15365 times)

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Offline Wineslob

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2009, 02:17:49 PM »
Quote
I do think that Marx may be right on this one! Capitalist's will exploit the poor if they do not have a moral compass.



I know, one of those asshole Capitalist's has me working at a job that pays for my 1800 sf home, cars, vacations, ect..  What a pig.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2009, 02:20:34 PM »
Thanks! Good one! I do understand "sloth" but what about the ones in the middle. We work really hard and are still beholding to the Capitalists and what they deem appropriate???
It is as if we are fighting out of a paper bag-- or in "rock and hard place" scenario. They are steering the ship in the direction that they deem fit and many do not have that moral compass. SIGH

Who are these "Capitalists" you're so on about?

Offline Patriot Lady

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2009, 07:20:14 PM »
As with every economic system whether capitalist or "communist (collective)" the ones with the money (or power), get to tell the rest what to do.......been that way since man walked upright.......what's the problem?

doc
The problem is the exorbedent inequality in this country caused by amoral capitalists. The following article is one example.
I can also site the pay increases in DC and that Federal pay has increased since the economic meltdown- this is absolutely inexusable! With the economic breakdown, we can only hope that DC would stand with us-- remembering that they caused the disaster. They are telling us to tighten our purses and we are the ones that are loosing jobs or having hours cut. Congress still gets their perks and a new 2% raise for 2010.
I do not know about you but all of this gets me fuming! I might be a dreamer but all of this is totally out of proportion---nothing good will come of it. Also- when the US dollar goes, we go too. They won't because they have their money safely tucked away.
Face it-- Capitalists are money hungry mongruls!
Quote
Wall Streeters aren't the only ones raking in big bonuses during tough economic times.
Hospital presidents and CEOs also collect fat bonuses and "incentive payments," even as health-care systems cry poverty, claiming they struggle to break even against government cutbacks, tightwad insurers and skyrocketing costs.
While warning of layoffs and slashed patient services, many hospitals shower their top execs and department heads with bonuses and perks. They include housing allowances, chauffeurs, first-class air travel, tuition for their kids and country-club memberships.
The filings for the city's biggest and most prestigious private, tax-exempt hospitals show at least a dozen CEOs get compensation of $1 million and up. Some also cash in early on million-dollar pre-retirement payouts while on the job.
Dr. Herbert Pardes, who runs the New York-Presbyterian Hospital and its health-care system -- the city's largest private hospital network -- received a $1 million bonus in 2008 on top of his $1.67 million salary.
The hospital has a "pay for performance" philosophy but says even though Pardes met his goals, his bonus was smaller than 2007's to "reflect the current external environment."
But Pardes' compensation totaled $9.8 million in 2008 because he vested in a retirement plan that will pay $6.8 million when he leaves in 2011. He also received a $93,500 housing allowance and the use of a car and driver.

The $4.2 million 2008 compensation for Steven Safyer, CEO of Montefiore Medical Center in The Bronx, another major teaching hospital, included a $1.2 million salary, a $452,789 bonus, a $6,000 college scholarship for his child and $2.1 million in pre-retirement cash.

A $1.2 million bonus went to Miguel Fuentes Jr., CEO of the 958-bed Bronx-Lebanon Hospital. His $4.8 million package included $878,024 in salary and an $858,000 pre-retirement payout. He's also set to get $1.8 million in retirement cash next year.

Execs cleaned up even at struggling hospitals. Despite years of losses, 513-bed Lenox Hill Hospital on the Upper East Side gave CEO Gladys George an early-retirement payment of $752,469 on top of her relatively modest $522,206 salary.

Her salary still dwarfs that of Alvin Aviles, who makes $291,000 as CEO of the city's $6.3 billion Health and Hospitals Corp., the nation's largest public system with 39,000 employees at 11 hospitals, four nursing homes and many treatment centers.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/sickening_bonuses_8pL0AI56MMF7wcPa3ibFDM#ixzz0ZoFr1bRY
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Offline bkg

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2009, 07:23:25 PM »
The problem is the exorbedent inequality in this country caused by amoral capitalists. The following article is one example.
I can also site the pay increases in DC and that Federal pay has increased since the economic meltdown- this is absolutely inexusable! With the economic breakdown, we can only hope that DC would stand with us-- remembering that they caused the disaster. They are telling us to tighten our purses and we are the ones that are loosing jobs or having hours cut. Congress still gets their perks and a new 2% raise for 2010.
I do not know about you but all of this gets me fuming! I might be a dreamer but all of this is totally out of proportion---nothing good will come of it. Also- when the US dollar goes, we go too. They won't because they have their money safely tucked away.
Face it-- Capitalists are money hungry mongruls!

Equating anything that happens in DC with capitalism is your first mistake. DC has NOTHING to do with capitalism.

Who are the "amoral capitalists?" None in your article that I saw.

Offline Patriot Lady

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2009, 07:31:07 PM »
Equating anything that happens in DC with capitalism is your first mistake. DC has NOTHING to do with capitalism.

Who are the "amoral capitalists?" None in your article that I saw.
cap⋅i⋅tal⋅ist  /ˈkæpɪtlɪst/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [kap-i-tl-ist]  Show IPA
–noun 1. a person who has capital, esp. extensive capital, invested in business enterprises.
Doctors invest in the hospitals etc. Congress also invests- look at Rangel- great example! Pelosi owns a vineyard in the Napa Valley-- on and on
They also reinvest. I am not really business savvy- I simply detest what I am seeing in this country.

"THERE IS NOTHING MORE FRIGHTENING THAN ACTIVE IGNORANCE."
-- Goethe

Offline bkg

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2009, 08:02:31 PM »
capâ‹…iâ‹…talâ‹…ist  /ˈkæpɪtlɪst/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [kap-i-tl-ist]  Show IPA
–noun 1. a person who has capital, esp. extensive capital, invested in business enterprises.
Doctors invest in the hospitals etc. Congress also invests- look at Rangel- great example! Pelosi owns a vineyard in the Napa Valley-- on and on
They also reinvest. I am not really business savvy- I simply detest what I am seeing in this country.

You're misapplying the definition if you apply it to the gov't. The money DC is playing with is not their own and has been gathered by way of extorsion, thread and theft. That is not capitalism.

Beyond that, sure, individuals are capitalists, and what is wrong with that if done legally? Pelosi, et al, are hypocritical beyond reproach in that their "success" is often driving by the laws they themselves create. That's at best, insider trading.

Does it bother you that Bill Gates is worth Billions? Almost 90% of millionaires are self made. I'm all for it - it means there's a chance I could do it as well. Capitalism is the best system anyone has ever seen. Remember, the founders believed we were created equal... not that we lived equal.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2009, 08:11:21 PM »
capâ‹…iâ‹…talâ‹…ist  /ˈkæpɪtlɪst/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [kap-i-tl-ist]  Show IPA
–noun 1. a person who has capital, esp. extensive capital, invested in business enterprises.
Doctors invest in the hospitals etc. Congress also invests- look at Rangel- great example! Pelosi owns a vineyard in the Napa Valley-- on and on
They also reinvest. I am not really business savvy- I simply detest what I am seeing in this country.



Holey Moses!

Actually, thanks for the definition; which I trust you happened to actually read.  You are (or, rather, anyone is) a "capitalist" if you/they are: (a) someone with a pension, (b) someone with a 401(k), (c) someone with an IRA, (d) someone with a KEOGH, (e) someone with a savings account, (f) someone with a brokerage account, (g) someone who owns real estate, including folks who own their own home (whether or not it's encumbered with a mortgage), (h) someone who owns her or his own business, or ....

Quite frankly, that means that most ordinary Americans - excluding the slackers over at DU - are capitalists.  Welcome to the dark side, everyone.

Offline Chump

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2009, 07:25:06 AM »
Capitalism works because it is a system entirely based on equality.  The starting point is that all men are equal, regardless of social standing, race, gender, or anything else you can think of.  The only requirement for success is that you engage in trade with your fellow man, and the possibilities for that trade are nearly endless.  You can devote yourself to a profession and offer your services in exchange for what you value, or you can apply your mind to a problem and offer your solution for the same.  Whether you'd like to be a manual laborer or a brain surgeon, your personal outcome is based entirely on what you value and how you engage in trade for those values.

And so, naturally, we see inequality in each man's personal outcome.  Some men are more ambitious than others; this is simply a statement of fact.  Some men value time with their families over time spent studying a profession.  Some men value the creation of wealth over having a family at all.  To say that we should see equality, across the board, is tantamount to saying we should control men's livelihoods, their dreams, and their goals.  If that's your stance, then PM me.  I'd be more than happy to burn some frequent flyer miles sending you to the paradise of your choice.  Cuba, N. Korea, China, take your pick.

Where capitalism fails is where government begins to interfere with it.  Witness welfare, for one.  The idea was that all men should have their fundamental needs met, regardless of any effort they put forth for them.  But no one ever stopped to define how those fundamental needs should be met.  Should we prepare a bowl of gruel, three times a day, so that these poor men can eat?  Should we build them a 10'X10' room to live in until they can provide for themselves?  No, instead, it was decided that we should just give men money, because they need it.  Nevermind where that money comes from, and the work that was required to produce it.  We'll suspend the rules of capitalism based on great need.  And then, shockingly, we come to find that these poor men still have no motivation to work or produce in order to provide for themselves.  Instead, we've created an actual welfare state within a "capitalist" system.  Why should anyone be surprised?  These poor men were not motivated in the first place to provide for themselves, so why should it be any different when someone else is providing for them?  We've forgotten that need should be a motivation to achieve, not a reason to steal from others.  We've denied human nature itself.

Witness, as well, the fiasco in the financial industry.  Huge banks and corporations made awful, awful decisions regarding risk and reward.  We can detail the history that may have prompted those decisions, but I'd rather look at the final outcome.  Instead of simply acknowledging their plight and waving goodbye as they went under, we propped them up, funneling hundreds of billions of dollars into their operations.  And why?  Because they needed it.  Because they're "too big to fail."  Because think of the poor people who would lose money if they went under.  Complete and utter garbage.  Think of the poor people who don't have the chance to step into these bloated behemoths' places.

Capitalism, properly allowed to operate, is the only system that benefits all men, at the expense of none.  This mixed-economy, trollish, mockery of capitalism we currently have is responsible for the opposite.  It benefits the lazy and incompetent at the expense of the producers.  It rewards poor decisions and lack of ambition and punishes the opposite.  You can thank government interference for each and every gripe you have about capitalism, and you can thank your own misguided notion that men's economic standing should be "more equal" for giving rise to that government interference.  All men start on equal footing in a purely capitalist society.  There is nothing more moral than that, and there is hardly a worse evil than the idea that men should be robbed so that others can receive something they never lifted a finger for.  Witness the oppressive, tyrannical society prevalent in any "people's state" you can think of.  Witness the fact that America went from new-born babe to economic superpower nearly overnight.  Witness the fact that China began turning its economy around by relaxing government intervention and allowing for "a little more capitalism here and there."  The evidence is all around you, PatriotLady, and yet you continue to rail against the only system that's ever been proven to actually improve men's lives.  And your complaints are against the forced perversions of that system, as if capitalism is responsible for any of your woes.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
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Offline Chump

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2009, 07:29:00 AM »
The problem is the exorbedent inequality in this country caused by amoral capitalists. The following article is one example.
I can also site the pay increases in DC and that Federal pay has increased since the economic meltdown- this is absolutely inexusable! With the economic breakdown, we can only hope that DC would stand with us-- remembering that they caused the disaster. They are telling us to tighten our purses and we are the ones that are loosing jobs or having hours cut. Congress still gets their perks and a new 2% raise for 2010.
I do not know about you but all of this gets me fuming! I might be a dreamer but all of this is totally out of proportion---nothing good will come of it. Also- when the US dollar goes, we go too. They won't because they have their money safely tucked away.
Face it-- Capitalists are money hungry mongruls!

Friend, this is a reason to remove government interference in the economy.  You've just highlighted the ways in which government perverts the operation of capitalism, rewarding losers who simply know how to manipulate the government and its interference, and then applied your criticism to capitalism itself.  Stop it.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
~Atlas Shrugged, Galt's speech

Offline Wineslob

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2009, 11:05:43 AM »
Chump, teh stoopid is strong with the Lady.
“The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”

        -- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 55 BC (106-43 BC)

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"Practice random violence and senseless acts of brutality"

If you want a gender neutral bathroom, go pee in the forest.

Offline Chump

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2009, 11:45:42 AM »
Chump, teh stoopid is strong with the Lady.

I'm not impressed with the logic of blaming capitalism for things imposed on it by the government, but at this point I think PL has an open mind, and she's at least acknowledging that no other system can compare to capitalism.  At the very least, the sort of complaints she brings up should be met and answered every single time they're mentioned.  Every time, without fail, lest any lurkers mistakenly think they have merit.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
~Atlas Shrugged, Galt's speech

Offline Eupher

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2009, 11:57:48 AM »
I'm not impressed with the logic of blaming capitalism for things imposed on it by the government, but at this point I think PL has an open mind, and she's at least acknowledging that no other system can compare to capitalism.  At the very least, the sort of complaints she brings up should be met and answered every single time they're mentioned.  Every time, without fail, lest any lurkers mistakenly think they have merit.

Chump, have you seen this thread?

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,37697.msg406809.html#msg406809

and this one?

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,37863.0.html

Nope, WS is dead on. Teh stooopid is strong with the lady.
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Offline Chump

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Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2009, 11:59:34 AM »
:thatsright:
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
~Atlas Shrugged, Galt's speech