1963 Ford Fairlane

[Chris_]

Don't forget to make sure you have 12 volts running to your coil, by running a meter across the two terminals on the coil with the key in the 'ON' position. 

I probably should have done that today but did not.

Did you ever read Murilee Martin's take on carbureted points-ignition motors?

Why Old Cars Suck

You carburetor zealots can just go back to fishing your dropped jets out of the weeds in your back yard, because modern electronic fuel injection systems work perfectly 99.999999 and a bunch more nines percent of the time, and when you're done doing that... well, don't you have a sunk float or something to deal with?

It's a miracle that the voodoo-ass "technology" behind the carburetor worked as well as it did— remember how godawful those horrible electric chokes were, fellow old dudes?— and mechanical fuel-injection systems managed to be even less reliable. If I could have all the wasted hours I've spent futzing with carburetors back, I'd be years younger, I tell you what! In the modern, post-carburetor era, you stick the key in the ignition, you turn it, and the car fires right up. In the old days, you turned the key and prayed!

Jalopnik

[BattleHymn]

I probably should have done that today but did not.

Did you ever read Murilee Martin's take on carbureted points-ignition motors?
Jalopnik

That is an interesting article, and I agree with several points that it makes.   

I've never been a carb type of person myself.  On the other hand, my oldest brother is the complete opposite, so we trade out work: me helping him with his EFI stuff, him helping me with any carb-related issues I have. 

If you throw a properly sorted SU in the mix though, I'd almost always rather have that over either of the other choices. 

Points don't bother me.  I've had enough cars with or without them, that I'm completely without an opinion one way or the other on them.

All told, an interesting article; however, ask me to work on your new car, and I'll probably turn you down.  Ask me to go work on your old car, and I'll be over in five minutes.  One is a joy, while the other is almost always a task.  I enjoy tinkering, and that satisfying feeling of fixing something. That magic just isn't there on a new car for me. 

[Chris_]

  No spark @ plug #1

[CG6468]

No spark @ plug #1

Bad spark plug wire?

[BattleHymn]

No spark @ plug #1

Your plugs are at the end of the high tension side of your ignition system.  Start with the low tension side first.  Check for 12V at the coil, then 12V at the points.  If that is present, and only then, can you really begin to consider a fault on the high tension side of things.

I'm still betting it's a wire in the points that is grounding, causing them not to fire, because you mentioned everything was fine until swapped them over.  Maybe I should make a detour on my way down to FL next week. 

[CG6468]

The carbon composite high tension wires can crack easily and create all sorts of headaches. The plug wires can be checked in the dark for sparks flying from them to the engine. They're not fun to grab if they're defective.

[biersmythe]

Your plugs are at the end of the high tension side of your ignition system.  Start with the low tension side first.  Check for 12V at the coil, then 12V at the points.  If that is present, and only then, can you really begin to consider a fault on the high tension side of things.

I'm still betting it's a wire in the points that is grounding, causing them not to fire, because you mentioned everything was fine until swapped them over.  Maybe I should make a detour on my way down to FL next week. 

I'm with Battle hymn check from the farthest / simplest first. I do believe that either you have an issue with the points/condenser being bad or they aren't set properly...I am not saying that to accuse you of anything..it was running before you changed those two small parts in the distributor albeit not good but better than now...unless you moved /  changed something at the same time. As far as the coil goes...I used to be do a lot of wrenching and i only changed one or two of the old style coil's on a vehicle...they just don't go bad like that...unless it is the NEW style coil packs that is much different a coil per cylinder they seem to go bad before 100k every time. 

[BattleHymn]

I accidentally grounded out the points in my 240Z a long time ago, and it took me a few days to figure out what I did.  The 12V+ wire going into the distributor had gotten pinched between the distributor cap and the distributor body.   

When I would take the cap off, the points were firing, since the wire was no longer being held to the distributor body.  When I put it back on, BAM, they were grounding out again.   

I claim youth and ignorance.  I make double sure nowadays that all those wires going to and inside the distributor are all up to snuff.   

[Chris_]

I'm going to switch back to the old points.  The new one is slightly different and doesn't seem to make very good contact with the condenser and distributor ground wires.

[biersmythe]

I'm going to switch back to the old points.  The new one is slightly different and doesn't seem to make very good contact with the condenser and distributor ground wires.

good start to the mystery investigation...if it takes off and runs...even poorly then you have your culprit. Then all there is to do is go strangle the cat that sold you the Chinese goods. 

[Chris_]

Okay, so I put the old points on, gapped them, and put everything back together.  It will fire up and run for about a minute until it sputters and dies. 

*sigh* More work to do.

I may have my gap set too large.  I don't recall what I set it to, but the manual says .015-.018.  I may have used the largest one.

[BattleHymn]

Okay, so I put the old points on, gapped them, and put everything back together.  It will fire up and run for about a minute until it sputters and dies. 

*sigh* More work to do.

What looks so different about the new points vs your old ones?

[Chris_]

I think it's just cheap piece of junk.  I know I need to double check to make sure the distributor cam is lined up with the arm.



This is the "new" one.  The metal band on the old one had a stop at the end... it wasn't open like this one.  Also, the bump stop was fixed inside the body and not open.  On this one, everything was loose and sloppy because there's nothing to hold it together.

I'll take a picture of the old one tomorrow.

[Eupher]

I think it's just cheap piece of junk.  I know I need to double check to make sure the distributor cam is lined up with the arm.



This is the "new" one.  The metal band on the old one had a stop at the end... it wasn't open like this one.  Also, the bump stop was fixed inside the body and not open.  On this one, everything was loose and sloppy because there's nothing to hold it together.

I'll take a picture of the old one tomorrow.

That don't look right to me, Dad.

[BattleHymn]

That don't look right to me, Dad.

Chris,

The springy part of that point set- was it completely insulated from the rest of the distributor?  What did it screw to?  I think a picture of the inside of your distributor with the cap off and the old points installed would be helpful. 

If it runs at all on the old points, that leads me to believe it's just a simple installation mishap somewhere. 

[BattleHymn]

This might help you: 

http://gasengine.farmcollector.com/Gas-Engines/Understanding-Breaker-Point-Ignition-Systems.aspx#axzz2b8cuIIYU

[Chris_]

There's a screw that goes into that slot, like a bump stop for the lever arm.  There was a piece of plastic holding it in place but I took it off and shimmed it with some washers.  The lower part of the screw was screwed down by a couple of small nuts that the condenser and distributor wire were pinched between.

[Chris_]

So the book says .015-.018.  I only have two gauges that fall in that spec, .016 and .018.

The gap was way too large when I checked it this afternoon.  I adjusted it a little closer to spec and it will fire up and run as long as I keep my foot on the gas.  It won't idle. 

I managed to drain my battery.  Good thing I have a spare.

[BattleHymn]

There's a screw that goes into that slot, like a bump stop for the lever arm.  There was a piece of plastic holding it in place but I took it off and shimmed it with some washers.  The lower part of the screw was screwed down by a couple of small nuts that the condenser and distributor wire were pinched between.

If you shimmed the area where that insulator is with washers that are conductive, that there is your problem.   



You should have zero continuity with the points open, from the base plate, to the insulated side of the points.  You should have continuity with the points closed. 

[Chris_]

I got that part.  The lever and the bump stop never touched.

Either way, it was a piece of crap.  I've moved on to a different problem now.

[BattleHymn]

I got that part.  The lever and the bump stop never touched.

Either way, it was a piece of crap.  I've moved on to a different problem now.

Do tell. 

[Chris_]

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,87876.msg1114500.html#msg1114500 

It will run @ WOT but will not idle.  I still think the dwell/point gap is not set correctly, but the gauge I have isn't specific enough.

[biersmythe]

Well if the point gap isn't correct it will affect the rpm's the spark can work in...if it to close it knee caps the coil from giving all it energy and if its open to far it does not build energy in the coil....so it need to be CLOSE to correct to run with any semblance of being right. Then you can move on to other issues. Most people I have been at the race track with seem to mix up ignition problems with carb problems....they are REALLY close but it is easy to look at the plugs or check timing/ dwell etc and wallah you know which way to go.

[Chris_]

I picked up a more accurate set of feeler gauges.  It covers every thousandth of an inch from .010 to .032.  Right now, it's set (roughly) to .016.

It's possible there was some rust or crap in the fuel that wound up in the float bowls from the previous crusty fuel tank.  I don't know how close the Autolite is to a standard Holley or Edelbrock, but if I can remove the float bowls to check the level or for deposits without removing the carburetor, I should be able to get this thing running.

[biersmythe]

I would work on getting one thing strait then go to the other, cause if you have to many things that are not quite rite then you will be chasing your tail....get the ignition as close as you can then go to the carb. It was running before you changed the points...get it back to that point. that is what I would do.