http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6363934Oh my.
The magisterial one, who has
NOT donated to Skins's island:
The Magistrate (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 03:53 PM
Original message
On Sixty Democratic Votes In The Senate, Ladies And Gentlemen
Our total of sixty votes today includes a number of 'moderates' and 'centerists' from red or reddish states. Democratic Senators from these places are going to have to stand up and put their seats at risk, and if they do not, will deserve every calumny of cowardice and corruption and petty self-serving that has traditionally been directed at them here from the left. It has been my practice to defend such people here on occasion from such charges, arguing that it is necessary to preserve their seats for a future battle on decent odds. Well, the time of that battle is now. No fight was ever won without casualties.
"The art of war consists in a well-reasoned and extremely circumspect defense, followed by audacious attack."
Oh, I dunno.
The grocery cart primitive, who has
NOT donated to Skins's island:
grantcart (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. If the House remains solid the time will come when there will be immense pressure for the last Senate hold outs to vote for the most important Democratic bill in 40 years.
I predict that there will be some type of horse trading (maybe increased incentives for rural health care) that will allow these folks to come on board a bill with a public option.
We should expect that some will say things now as a means of posturing for more leaverage in negotiation.
Conrad should be taken on now because he has taken such a high profile stance.
The one I really don't trust, however, is Bayh.
It also would not surprise me that one or two Republican Senators who live in Blue states will also try and do some horse trading in exchange for a vow from the Whitehouse to not make a high profile endorsement of a Democrat in their next race.
There is still a long long way to go and experienced legislators know that the pot gets sweeter the closer to the final vote. The last one to sign on is likely to get more attention for their endorsement than the one that is already on board.
The key is the House staying firm on the Public Option. If they stay strong the Senate will follow.
Oh, I dunno.
The Magistrate (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Do Not Mistake My Meaning My Friend
Posturing by these people can be tolerated a little longer, till the third week of September, perhaps, but they cannot be given meaningful concessions to secure their votes. This thing is stripped down as far as it can go, and still mean anything.
These people are going to have to stand without cover, like any man in the firing line at Brandywine, and take their chances in the face of the shot. If they peel off, desert, then at least we all know where everyone stands.
If they go down, they will have a name for courage. If they display courage, they may even secure the respect of their constituents, and with that respect their votes in future, even from people who do not wholly agree with their stand.
As regards people like Snow and Collins, any promise can be made, so long as it is not kept, and serious candidates are run against them by the Party at the next opportunity. It is a damned disgrace that so much as one Republican holds a seat for New England.
"Battle creates clarity."
Doug's stupid ex-wife, who has
NOT donated to Skins's island:
EFerrari (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. I was watching Taylor at his Gulfport town hall. The audience seemed ready to eat him and he was even asked why he didn't switch parties. They seemed to barely tolerate him as it is and he's against the bill. What the Blue Dogs are up against at home got a little more real after seeing that.
Yeah, yeah. Like it really seemed that way.
Only to Doug's stupid ex-wife.
The leftover kerosene primitive, who has
NOT donated to Skins's island:
LanternWaste (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. I always feel a bit more educated after reading your posts.
I always feel a bit more educated after reading your posts, and I always appreciate your perspectives.
Now, that's funny.
The wolf-eaten wooden primitive, who has
NOT donated to Skins's island:
Nicholas D Wolfwood (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. Everyone likes to ask someone else to be the martyr.
Basically, you're asking the 10 or so moderate/centrist Democratic Senators to "take one for the team" and risk losing their seats, which is exceedingly easy for you. But for someone that's worked their entire life and poured a lot of their own personal sacrifice into getting where they are, it's not exactly a request that's to be taken lightly.
Would you so easily give up your life's work for the greater good? For me, if it were my top issue - yes, I'd risk my career for the chance to make that kind of impact. But let me add in a twist - would you give up your life's work and your chance to make a difference on an issue that you feel is more important - is more vital to our nation - for something that you weren't entirely convinced about? I don't know about you, but I know I wouldn't.
I'm not saying that you're wrong, or that it's not a sound strategy - I'm just asking you to realize that what you're asking isn't exactly as easy as you make it sound. And that has nothing whatsoever to do with cowardice or corruption (though I'm willing to accept that it might in a few cases).
The Magistrate (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. That Is What The Situation Demands, Sir
People who are not up to it should find another trade.
By the way, to talk of 'sacrifice' by these people in getting to their present place is nonesense. You will be hard put to find one person who has yet left the Senate poorer than he or she was on arrival....
Nicholas D Wolfwood (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. I have too much respect for you to disagree with you as vehemently as I do right now.
There is a LOT of personal sacrifice that goes into being and becoming a Senator or any elected official. Your life is put on display, you spend every waking hour doing something for someone, you get berated by people like the teabaggers for simply having an opinion, you barely see your family in most circumstances... Yes, you may come out of it with some money (not nearly as much as you seem to think... $160k doesn't go all that far in DC, especially when you have to pay for your house back home too), but that is not to say they aren't sacrificing a part of themselves every step of the way.
You are typically far more even minded that this, Magistrate. I still ask you - would you give up your life's work on an issue you didn't really believe in?
The Magistrate (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. It Is An Investment, Sir, That Generally Pays Handsome Dividends
Net worth increases, salary is the least of it. This is a trade people are driven to by a conviction they are able, even destined, to direct the affairs of others, and persons of such a temperament have little real attachment to family life and the like, whatever they may say for public consumption, it being the fashion nowadays to exalt 'family' above most other things. People who drive themselves to power are seldom sympathetic characters, when closely examined.
By the way, contrary to what seems common perception, the magisterial one is
NOT franksolich's supermole on Skins's island.
wryter2000 (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. One little problem
There are actually only 58 Dems in the Senate, and one of them is so sick he couldn't attend his sister's funeral. One of the Independents, Bernie Sanders, will do the right thing. But, to get to 60, you have to get all the Democrats, wheel Kennedy into the Senate in his hospital bed, and convince Lieberman to do the right thing.
I'm afraid only the nuclear option or reconcilliation will get a decent bill out of the Senate, and then only if the House stands firm (as someone else observed).
The Magistrate (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. People Have Been Wheeled In On Gurneys Before, Ma'am
Lieberman can be threatened with loss of seniority and committee assignments. Caucus with the Democrats, vote with the Democrats. Push the thing hard, and either succeed, or find out what the actual situation is, without cover or concealment.
Nicholas D Wolfwood (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Don't forget Byrd, too.
People like to clamour for making the Republicans do an old-school filibuster, forgetting that we have multiple ill and aging Senators on our side that wouldn't be able to sit there for the duration required. They also forget that Joe Lieberman isn't exactly reliable in this regard, nor would be Ben Nelson.
I think reconciliation, if done creatively, could get us there. I still can't agree with the nuclear option. I refuse to be a hypocrite.
The Magistrate (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. The Reconciliation Process Is Fine By Me, Sir
It does seem to have some limits, however, and sooner or later, the Republican check on our agenda's passage must be fought down and broken, or the true situation be put on stark display for the voting public.
Nicholas D Wolfwood (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. I care not for stark displays.
I care for policy. Any port in a storm, as it were. I'll take reconciliation if it means we get the public option and I'll leave the displays for town halls.
Hekate (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. As always, my good Confucian, your measured words are well said.
:a small bow of respect between equals:
Oh my.
The heckling primitive is nowhere near the equal of the magisterial one.
It's like a piece of swine excrement thinking it's as good as a piece of pie.
Jazzgirl (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-21-09 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. You tell 'em Magistrate!
This indeed is a war.
