The mask slips: it was never about doing good

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Skul brought the OP over into our collective thread on DU reaction to Rmoney releasing his returns but that find deserves it own thread because what follows is equally telling.

cthulu2016 (4,692 posts)

Charitable giving is NOT equivalent to paying taxes.

Last edited Fri Sep 21, 2012, 09:13 PM USA/ET - Edit history (5)

 There is no categorical difference between giving to charity and buying a jet ski. It is what you want to do with your money.
 
You choose to give to charity for whatever reason you choose to give to charity.
 
It is what you want to do with your money... an expression of individual priorities. That doesn't mean their is anything wrong with charitable giving, of course. I only means that it is what one chooses to do to manifest their priorities.
 
So this whole thing of conflating Romney's tax payments and his charitable (sic) giving is demented.
 
The thing about paying taxes is that it is not an expression of your moral values, your sense of self, your ego, your priorites... your tax money goes to what the American electorate decides to do with the money.
 
If you are handy with that old devil Arithmetic it is easy to see that all taxpayers subsidize the charitable donations of individual taxpayers. It is lost revenue that must be made up by everyone else somehow. Now, I had to pay a little something to invade Iraq. That was awful, but my nation had decided to invade Iraq so I get it.
 
But why did I also have have to pay a little something to the LDS church's massive $6 billion stock and bond portfolio? All taxpayers do subsidize that portfolio. Again... it is lost revenue that has to come from somewhere.
 
Giving money to build a gigantic temple of gold that only Mormons of a certain rank can enter is not any sensible sort of charitable giving. Giving money to baptize dead non-Mormon celebrities is not charity. Giving money to fund a political campaign to ban marriage equality in California is not charity. Giving money to convert people in the third world to some particular religion is not charity.
 
And tithing is no more "required" than paying your annual dues to the NRA is required. It is only "required" if you choose to belong to the NRA.

MercutioATC (28,339 posts)

1. Should the average taxpayer get a deduction for a donation to build homes for Katrina victims?

Churches do that, too. Where do we draw the line between what's worthy of an income tax deduction and what isn't?
 
(on a personal note, I do not believe in deductions for money given to ANY religious group)

Because you have no power over them.

cthulu2016 (4,692 posts)

6. I know this is controversial, but I don't believe in any charitable deductions

There is no reason for anyone to be forced to subsidize other people's priorities that way.
 
A earns 100K
B earns 100K

Tax rate is 25%.

B give 20K to some organization.

A pays 25K taxes.
B pays 20K taxes.

One way or another, A and B will both have to pay a higher tax rate to subsidize B's donations.
 
And if B give 20K to some disease nobody has, but that his aunt died of, then A has to pay more to make up the gap of money for CDC to research more common diseases.
 
Makes no sense, in the totality of social priorities.

B paid 40k in taxes and charity. A only paid  25k

If the govt spend 50k instead of 45k that's the govt's fault because I'm sure that 20k in charity is better spent than 45k in federal expenditures.

MercutioATC (28,339 posts)

9. Agreed.

I understand the social value of charitable giving, but there's no reason that we should all pay for somebody else's priorities.

Why should I pay for your priorities of propping Solyndra and corrupt teacher's unions?

HiPointDem (6,067 posts)

23. i don't think charitable deductions should be allowed for anything. you have the money, you want

Last edited Sat Sep 22, 2012, 03:16 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

to give it, fine. give it. why should you get a tax deduction?

it's just a scam for the big boys. most small fry don't itemize, they just give.
 
people like pete peterson, on the other hand, get tax deductions for their private foundation dedicated to the destruction of social security.
 
http://www.pgpf.org/

Peter G. Peterson (born June 5, 1926) is an American businessman, investment banker, fiscal conservative, author, and politician whose most prominent political position was as United States Secretary of Commerce from February 29, 1972, to February 1, 1973 under Richard Nixon. He is most well known currently as founder and principal funder of The Peter G. Peterson Foundation, which he established in 2008 with a $1 billion endowment. The group focuses on raising public awareness about U.S. fiscal-sustainability issues related to federal deficits, entitlement programs, and tax policies.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_George_Peterson

The Magistrate (78,795 posts)

15. Churches Are Not Charities, Sir

They are self-interested and self-aggrandizing enterprises, not much different from any other business, and that mostly in the odd character of the product they sell. Some portion of monies donated to a church may be put to relief of suffering persons, or other forms of assistance we would have no difficulty agreeing were charitable activities. Portions of monies donated to a church will certainly be used for maintenance of the faith, for the upkeep of its properties, salaries of its functionaries, needs of its endowment fund, and such, which are by no stretch of the imagination charitable expenditures. Some portions of monies donated to a church will be used for proselytizing; again, by no stretch of the imagination charity. Where churches do engage in actions we would agree are charitable, these are often restricted to assisting persons of their communion, which falls short of what most would consider charity, pure and simple.

And you have no power over them.

Major Nikon (6,034 posts)

20. The IRS disagree

I do understand what you are saying, though. Churches are free to spend their donations on all sorts of things such as soup kitchens, a new Jet for Kenneth Copeland's fleet, or to send priests on sabbaticals to countries with lax child rape enforcement.

And that's all they do!

Why can't they be more like those sweet, dear politicians that so kindly look after us!

justiceischeap (7,710 posts)

28. Gotta say I'm with Magistrate on this one... Churches aren't charities

their non-profits. Big difference. When giving to a non-profit, it's considered charitable because they don't make a "profit" but the church themselves are not charities.

Separation of church and state is a one-way street.

Major Nikon (6,034 posts)

29. I'm just saying purely from what the IRS calls them

Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations.

http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Exemption-Requirements---Section-501(c)(3)-Organizations
 
I'm not going to dispute the assertion that churches really aren't charitable organizations.

Coincidentally so is Media Matters. You know, the ones wose emails show they're helping Obama propagandize people.

I presume, strictly in the interests of the law and principled ethics you demand they be investigated and taxed as appropriate.

Incitatus (3,348 posts)

21. Not really.

Last edited Sat Sep 22, 2012, 04:22 AM USA/ET - Edit history (2)

The churches often spend a lower percentage of the tithing on real charity. If you donate $1,000 to a soup kitchen, they are going to feed a lot more people than if you give $1,000 to a church.
 
A good policy would be to classify as a tax-deductible donation, the charity/church should open its books to the IRS and prove they spend a certain percentage of their donations on charity. If we can make insurance companies spend 80% of premiums on healthcare, why can't we make charities spend 80% of their donations on actual assistance or lose their status.

dkf (29,099 posts)

11. What about giving to the food bank. Should that be deductible?

HiPointDem (6,067 posts)

25. no.

Becaue you have no power of them.

SickOfTheOnePct (1,168 posts)

12. The same could be said for any deduction

Why do we all have to subsidize people that buy houses? (Mortgage interest deduction)
 Why do we all have to subsidize people that live in areas with high property taxes? (Property tax deductions)
 Why do we all have to subsidize people that live in states with state income taxes? (State income tax deduction)
 Why do we all have to subsidize people that buy their first home? (First time home buyer credit)
 Why do we all have to subsidize people with children in college? (Tuition deduction)
 
I'm not saying that I want to get rid of any of these, just making the point that all deductions are subsidized by all the taxpayers, because at some point, our representatives, sent there by the American electorate, decided this is what we wanted to do with the money. At some point, it was decided that society, as a whole, benefited from these subsidies.
 
It's not that I don't see your point, and to a certain degree, agree with it. Just stating that it doesn't apply only to charitable deductions, but to all deductions.

cthulu2016 (4,692 posts)

13. Yes, I agree that all deductions are social policy

we choose to subsidize charitable giving

[You see now the truth that liberals believe The State owns all things first. People spending their money their way is considered by liberals to a subsidy from the state. --Sgt SB]

(as defined by the IRS) because charitable giving is considered a good and thus should be encouraged.
 
And I assume we have the charitable deduction because we are afraid to not have the church deduction and the rest flows from there.
 
Personally, though, I do not consider giving to churches to be legitimately tax deductible — it's a glaring establishment clause violation to have two different tax rates for two churchgoers and non churchgoers with the same income. Particularly if tithing is part of your creed. In that case the non-faithful taxpayer is subsidizing a speciffic religious practice.
 
And having recognized that nobody can be forced to subsidize somebody else's religion, it would be terribly unfair to allow deductions for charities other than religious ones. For donations to a secular soup kitchen to be deductible by not for a church that runs a soup kitchen in the basement.
 
So I'd get rid of the charitable deduction altogether. (Replaced with a 10% additional standard deduction for everyone, and whatever rate adjustment evened that back out.)
 
ot that any of this will ever happen, but it's how I look at it

makokun (34 posts)

14. This reasoning is obscene...

Listen to yourselves. You are trashing the dude for giving to charity? Really? This is taking the partisanship too far. Time to pop a few Xanax and calm the "F" down. There are rational arguments that can be made about legitimate issues... not this knee jerk pablum. It reflects badly on anyone here with a brain and a conscience.

cthulu2016 (4,692 posts)

16. I hope you are enjoying your stay here

Since you cannot read you may find this forum challenging, being primarily text based, but your input is welcome, even when replying to wholly imaginary statements.
 
The OP does not trash anyone for giving to anything.

It implicitly trashes the Romney campaign talking points on his tax information, which is to add his charitable giving to his taxes paid, as if his voluntary tithing constitutes a higher tax burden.

tama (6,697 posts)

26. It isn't

Charitable giving does not go to MIC and military imperialism. When people are conquered and taxed, they are primarily taxed to fund the mechanisms of their oppression.

'At's a good lefty!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021393721

[Skul]

Thanks, Bun. 
I thought it too closely related to start a new thread.
The one comment that reall displays their ignorance was...

SickOfTheOnePct (1,168 posts)
12. The same could be said for any deduction

Why do we all have to subsidize people that buy houses? (Mortgage interest deduction)
 Why do we all have to subsidize people that live in areas with high property taxes? (Property tax deductions)
 Why do we all have to subsidize people that live in states with state income taxes? (State income tax deduction)
 Why do we all have to subsidize people that buy their first home? (First time home buyer credit)
 Why do we all have to subsidize people with children in college? (Tuition deduction)
 
I'm not saying that I want to get rid of any of these, just making the point that all deductions are subsidized by all the taxpayers, because at some point, our representatives, sent there by the American electorate, decided this is what we wanted to do with the money. At some point, it was decided that society, as a whole, benefited from these subsidies.
 
It's not that I don't see your point, and to a certain degree, agree with it. Just stating that it doesn't apply only to charitable deductions, but to all deductions.

Doesn't.  have.  a.  clue. 

[MrsSmith]

http://www.insurancefraud.org/medicarefraud.htm

Medicare and Medicaid made an estimated $23.7 billion in improper payments in 2007.  These included $10.8 billion for Medicare and $12.9 billion for Medicaid. 


http://www.charitynavigator.org/

Compassion International - just one of many, many highly rated charities

   Program Expenses    83.2%
    Administrative Expenses    7.2%
    Fundraising Expenses    9.4%


IF and WHEN the Feds can come anywhere close to using the money they steal from us as wisely as a fairly-rated charity, THEN the DUmmies have some small grounds for complaining about charitable deductions.  So long as the FED wastes billions of dollars every year, complaining about organizations that actually account for their money and use it wisely is just flat stupid.   

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Mrs S.,

It ain't about the amount spent on charity.

Those charities could spend 105% of what they take in on direct contributions...

...but the DUmbasses would not care.

They're mad because the government isn't getting the money.

If the government doesn't get the money it means YOU are keeping power to yourself.

They want that power.

They're smarter and better than you.

They deserve the power.

You do not.

[franksolich]

Whoa.

Amazing display of primitivity here.

The primitives don't want money to flow to charities simply because they're not the almighty government.

In fact, there was one primitive this past year (don't remember the name and time, though) who suggested that all charity be dispensed by the government, and the government alone.

That's all it is; the primitives want the government to control all, rather than individuals and organizations having a say in some things.  As if Michelle would share some of the booty with the primitives.....

[jukin]

I know I am not a super genius like the DUches but wouldn't one have to pay taxes first. I'm confident that less than 10% of the Duches pay taxes while the other 90% eats up tax money.

[ChuckJ]

One of the reasons that DUmmies loathe religious based charities can be found in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 3 verses 10 thru 12:
Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: "Those unwilling to work will not get to eat." Yet we hear that some of you are living idle lives, refusing to work and meddling in other people's business. We command such people and urge them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and work to earn their own living.

Titus Chapter 1 verses 15 thru 16:
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted. Such people claim they know God, but they deny him by the way they live. They are detestable and disobedient, worthless for doing anything good.

and Romans Chapter 1 verses 18 thru 32:
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

[zeitgeist]

One of the reasons that DUmmies loathe religious based charities can be found in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 3 verses 10 thru 12:
Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: "Those unwilling to work will not get to eat." Yet we hear that some of you are living idle lives, refusing to work and meddling in other people's business. We command such people and urge them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and work to earn their own living.

Titus Chapter 1 verses 15 thru 16:
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted. Such people claim they know God, but they deny him by the way they live. They are detestable and disobedient, worthless for doing anything good.

and Romans Chapter 1 verses 18 thru 32:
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

I got more going on today than a one armed paper hanger in a wind storm but logged in just to give a ^5 for an excellent application of scripture that points at the heart of today's progressive problem. Amen brother ChuckJ, Amen.

[WinOne4TheGipper]

I'm going to tweet a link to that thread.

[Linda]

I re-posted this one on my facebook page with a suggestion it should be posted on the front door of every government entitlement office.

2 Thessalonians Chapter 3 verses 10 thru 12:

Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: "Those unwilling to work will not get to eat." Yet we hear that some of you are living idle lives, refusing to work and meddling in other people's business. We command such people and urge them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and work to earn their own living.

[FlaGator]

I re-posted this one on my facebook page with a suggestion it should be posted on the front door of every government entitlement office.

Exactly. I can understand my tax dollars going to help those who are permanently disabled and I can understand my tax dollars going to help someone get back on their feet. However, I do not want my tax dollars going to support someone who makes their living on government handouts and expects the government to provide for the existence from cradle to grave. We now have generational welfare recipients who pass their knowledge on how best to fleece the tax payers to their children, many of whom grow up to do the same thing.

There are a lot of things that the government does with my money that make sense, but using tax payer dollars to buy voters and enslave large numbers of people isn't among those things. Slavery, even a slavery that is chosen is still slavery. I was a slave to cigarettes and alcohol in that they dictated to me how I was to spend my money and live my life. Because I chose this didn't negate the fact I was a slave.

[BlueStateSaint]

H5s to SSB and Chuck for crystallizing the reasons perfectly.

[Freeper]

What the idiots fail to realize is, the more charity there is the less that the government would have to spend, since they insist on doing it, on helping people.
They also don't realize that if the government takes in the same amount that a charity does, that less of that amount will actually get to the people who need the help. The government's idea of charity is they take $5 and hand the poor a crsip brand new one dollar bill, pocket the $4 and pat themselves on the back for caring so much.

[98ZJUSMC]

Of course, these are the same (D)Ullards who would tell you all about their charitable contributions and their charitable works and their blah, blah, blaaaah, blah...

[98ZJUSMC]

The government's idea of charity is they take $5 and hand the poor a crsip brand new one dollar bill, pocket the $4 and pat themselves on the back for caring so much.

Yep.

 

One of the reasons that DUmmies loathe religious based charities can be found in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 3 verses 10 thru 12:
Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: "Those unwilling to work will not get to eat." Yet we hear that some of you are living idle lives, refusing to work and meddling in other people's business. We command such people and urge them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and work to earn their own living.

Titus Chapter 1 verses 15 thru 16:
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted. Such people claim they know God, but they deny him by the way they live. They are detestable and disobedient, worthless for doing anything good.  

In fact, there was one primitive this past year (don't remember the name and time, though) who suggested that all charity be dispensed by the government, and the government alone.

I've read that same thing somewhere else, too. Cannot remember where.  (D)Ullards are nothing if not reality challenged.  But, we already knew that.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

What the idiots fail to realize is, the more charity there is the less that the government would have to spend...

STOP!

It's not about effectively helping people; it's about controlling you.

That private charity is more effective than government only makes it worse for them.

DATA POINTS:

1. They demand government power for themselves

2. they demand that everything you require to live your life be ceded to the government

3. anything that obviates or even reduces the need for government (private charity, spending cuts, reduced regulation, vouchers, etc) is vilified.

They aren't stupid, they aren't insane. They are very deliberate, including their hypocrisy.

We have to stop pretending/believing there is any shred of innocence behind their intentions.

[J P Sousa]

Thanks ChuckJ.

   2 Thessalonians Chapter 3 verses 10 thru 12:
Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: "Those unwilling to work will not get to eat." Yet we hear that some of you are living idle lives, refusing to work and meddling in other people's business. We command such people and urge them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and work to earn their own living.
 

Holy crap, it's about the democrats.........


I decided to search; 2 Thessalonians 2  and found:

  The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. 

OK, I'm not going to say HIS name but........

.

[Freeper]

STOP!

It's not about effectively helping people; it's about controlling you.

That private charity is more effective than government only makes it worse for them.

DATA POINTS:

1. They demand government power for themselves

2. they demand that everything you require to live your life be ceded to the government

3. anything that obviates or even reduces the need for government (private charity, spending cuts, reduced regulation, vouchers, etc) is vilified.

They aren't stupid, they aren't insane. They are very deliberate, including their hypocrisy.

We have to stop pretending/believing there is any shred of innocence behind their intentions.

I have never pretended that their intentions are good. They have the worst of intentions but try to package it as compassion.

[BEG]

Of course, these are the same (D)Ullards who would tell you all about their charitable contributions and their charitable works and their blah, blah, blaaaah, blah...

They are knocking Romney's charitable contributions because they feel shame for their lack of charity. All they know is how to "give" to the needy with other peoples money/time. It's so easy to spend other peoples money or tell other people what is worthy of their time when you don't contribute anything of value.

[sunsettommy]

Whoa.

Amazing display of primitivity here.

The primitives don't want money to flow to charities simply because they're not the almighty government.

In fact, there was one primitive this past year (don't remember the name and time, though) who suggested that all charity be dispensed by the government, and the government alone.

That's all it is; the primitives want the government to control all, rather than individuals and organizations having a say in some things.  As if Michelle would share some of the booty with the primitives.....

That sounds like Communism where they want to surrender ALL their money to the state and hope they get enough of it back to stay alive on.

The long missed joys of the Russian Utopian paradise is still on their mind and thus the reason why these primitives today want to give up their American way of life and join the long breadlines that was part of the glory of old USSR.

Deep down they are truly primitives who want to return to a primitive life where daddystate does everything for them while they enjoy their two room flat.

[Ogre]

They are knocking Romney's charitable contributions because they feel shame for their lack of charity. All they know is how to "give" to the needy with other peoples money/time. It's so easy to spend other peoples money or tell other people what is worthy of their time when you don't contribute anything of value.

I think your right, they're envious.  Given the same amount of income I highly doubt the Dummies would donate anything at all.  They would probably just blow it on Cheetos and weed.

[sunsettommy]

The Dumbocrats could have kept their mouth shut about Romney's tax returns and be free of their angst.

But that would be too easy...

[FiddyBeowulf]

They are knocking Romney's charitable contributions because they feel shame for their lack of charity. All they know is how to "give" to the needy with other peoples money/time. It's so easy to spend other peoples money or tell other people what is worthy of their time when you don't contribute anything of value.

Wait, pictures of hands and sending thoughts of healing white light does not have any value?

[thundley4]

I re-posted this one on my facebook page with a suggestion it should be posted on the front door of every government entitlement office.

That is a good quote for Facebook and should be on all government buildings and on every welfare application.

[I_B_Perky]

Well I didn't read all the posts cause I gotta work tomorrow at 0-dark-thirty but here is my take on it:

The real thing that bothers the dummies is that private charities can spend their money helping out those that deserve it. Which ain't dummies. The private charities decide. Not them. In short... no free money for the dummies!

What these idiot dummies do not understand is that the free money is gonna dry up sooner or later... and when it does it will not be pretty.