http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022169937Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:31 PM
SummerSnow (375 posts)
Do you think all these gun nuts making threats will lead to a national Ruby Ridge situation?
There are probably a whole lot of governors that wouldn't let a cock-up like that happen in their states anymore.
Response to SummerSnow (Original post)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:34 PM
B2G (1,217 posts)
2. And who was responsible for THAT travesty??
That is a loaded question on DU.
Response to B2G (Reply #2)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:40 PM
maxsolomon (11,559 posts)
7. I'd say the folks at Ruby Ridge who holed up and forced the confrontation.
Just like David Koresh and his lieutenants at Waco forced a confrontation.
Millenarian paranoia.
When you see the histrionics already emerging over any impending (and likely laughable) "Gun Control" measures as being equivalent to Stalinism, why, it's almost as if it's a self-fufilling prophecy.
You mean a man who committed no crimes and who was unreasonably targeted by the government isn't allowed to live on his own land as he sees fit. Not surprising.
Response to maxsolomon (Reply #7)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:08 PM
ProgressiveProfessor (20,223 posts)
87. You might want to review the history on this incident
The Wikipedia article is a pretty good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge and there is also some good stuff on the associated talk page.
Today Ruby Ridge is taught in law enforcement as a chain of major ****ups that they never want to repeat individually or severally. The Feds internally and externally have admitted they screwed up. They settled for $3.1 to the Weaver family, and $380K to Harris, who actually killed the Marshal (Degan). The FBI director (Louis Freeh) disciplined 12 agents and summed it up as "synonymous with the exaggerated application of federal law enforcement" and stated "law enforcement overreacted at Ruby Ridge." It really was that bad.
Just because the Federal Marshals and FBI screwed up badly does not make Weaver was a good guy. Not in the least and I am not defending him.
He's basically right. Of course, teaching DUmmies is literally throwing pearls before swine.
Response to B2G (Reply #2)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:48 PM
Recursion (20,686 posts)
14. Poppy Bush. And a typo in a court appearance date
Honestly, I doubt I would have much faith in the fairness of the system if I were given a document telling me to go to court a month after the actual court date and then had a bench warrant issued on me.All's true that is mistrusted
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Response to Recursion (Reply #14)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:54 PM
Hoyt (10,453 posts)
20. Feds gave Weaver a bunch of time to walk out of his compound unarmed.
Instead weaver hid behind his wife, baby and armed 14 year old son. He should have surrendered and faced the charges.
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Response to Hoyt (Reply #20)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:58 PM
Recursion (20,686 posts)
25. No, the first contact was when they shot his son
They didn't even tell him they were on his property before that.All's true that is mistrusted
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Response to Recursion (Reply #25)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 07:09 PM
Hoyt (10,453 posts)
29. They sat outside his compound for days. Then, sonny boy
and his buddy shot a federal Marshall. Get your facts straight. Daddy was a gun running racist who should have protected his family by giving up when he had chance. Instead, he put his family - who were racist pigs too - in harms way.
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Response to Hoyt (Reply #29)
Recursion This message was self-deleted by its author.
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Response to Hoyt (Reply #29)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 07:28 PM
Recursion (20,686 posts)
34. NM. I'm not going to re-hash that fiasco
Last edited Thu Jan 10, 2013, 07:32 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
I just think everybody involved did exactly the wrong thing.
Weaver was found not guilty of everything except failure to appear, and got a million dollars from the government.
Response to Recursion (Reply #34)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 07:31 PM
Hoyt (10,453 posts)
36. At least the feds meant right. Weaver was a vile person, and criminal.
Hoyt is desperately trying to prove....something in this thread.
ProgressiveProfessor (20,223 posts)
63. Which is why the Feds paid them damages...
Don't try an rewrite history. Even the Feds acknowledge it was a first class **** up on their part. Not defending Weaver, but the facts are not on your side.
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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #63)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 08:28 PM
Hoyt (10,453 posts)
70. Yes, you are defending weaver. Gerry Spence got the payment for the racist pig.
Sorry, weaver's actions are responsible for outcome.
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Response to Hoyt (Reply #70)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 08:48 PM
ProgressiveProfessor (20,223 posts)
80. What total bullshit...you are playing fast and loose with the facts again.
Feds teach Ruby Ridge as a never do this again. Several sequential major **** ups that they have learned from. It is a serious lessons learned. Even the released and redacted report should scare the shit out of you.
The family got $3.1M out of concern that a judgement would be much higher. The Federal Marshals and FBI actively opposed the settlement.
Not one word have I posted that supports or defends Weaver.
PPOSTFU
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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #80)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:12 PM
Hoyt (10,453 posts)
89. If weaver had not sold illegal guns to ayran nation, nothing would have happened.
It's that simple. Oh, he could have told his son and friend not to shoot a federal Marshal. But, I guess in some circles that is OK.
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Response to Hoyt (Reply #89)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:21 PM
ProgressiveProfessor (20,223 posts)
95. Don't forget the false accusation by his neighbors...
Last edited Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:22 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
The "Incident at the Y" was not clear cut in the least. Have you read the multiple accounts? Are you aware that the physical evidence collected by the FBI directly contradicts the story of the other Marshals? Have you even skimmed the two reports, redacted as they are?
It was a ****ing mess. Weaver was a racist pig, the Marshals were buffoons, who at best got very confused in the first encounter and at worst lied to save their asses. FBI comms and ROE were a mess. No heroes or good guys anywhere to be found.
Hoyt continues to play the racist criminal card. RegressiveEd continues to school him.
Response to B2G (Reply #2)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 08:27 PM
Zoeisright (6,876 posts)
67. The assholes who shot at Federal Marshals.
Next?You're allowed to have your own opinions. You're not allowed to have your own facts.
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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #67)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:12 PM
ProgressiveProfessor (20,223 posts)
88. You might want to read up on that a bit more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge would be a good place to start.
Ruby Ridge is taught in law enforcement as a chain of major ****ups that they never want to repeat individually or severally. The Feds internally and externally have admitted they screwed up. They settled for $3.1 to the Weaver family, and $380K to Harris, who actually killed the Marshal (Degan). The FBI director (Louis Freeh) disciplined 12 agents and summed it up as "synonymous with the exaggerated application of federal law enforcement" and stated "law enforcement overreacted at Ruby Ridge." It really was that bad.
Just because the Federal Marshals and FBI screwed up badly does not make Weaver a good guy. Not in the least.
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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #88)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:35 PM
Old and In the Way (36,096 posts)
105. Who wrote that Wiki article?
Please, at least use a source that's not subject to bias on the events of Ruby Ridge. Most sane Americans understand that an extremist on guns was willing to sacrifice his kid to get the confrontation with the government that he really wanted....are you saying that this guy Weaver was not a domestic terrorist?This space for rent.
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Response to Old and In the Way (Reply #105)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:03 PM
ProgressiveProfessor (20,223 posts)
113. Its not binary situation. Weaver was scum AND the Feds ****ed up horribly
If you have read any of the government reports or others of the incident, its pretty clear there were no good guys in it at all. Most Americans seem to understand that, though fewer know that damages were paid to Harris (who killed the marshal) and the Weaver family.
The Wiki article matches up well with the bulk of the reports and exonerates no one. Authorship and editing citations are on the backup pages, look for the tabs at the top.
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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #113)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:21 PM
friendly_iconoclast (8,234 posts)
131. Your explanation is too nuanced for those of a Manichaean persuasion.
They prefer a cartoonish view of politics...
He continues to talk, but the other DUmmies won't listen.
Response to SummerSnow (Original post)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:35 PM
onehandle (33,065 posts)
3. Many. As the white male wanes, they will burn out violently.
Nice way to play the race card.
Another DUmmie has a fantasy where AC-130s are used against racist, gun-toting teabaggers which leads to this:
Response to Taitertots (Reply #58)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 08:52 PM
cherokeeprogressive (13,968 posts)
83. The masturbatory fantasy where the American Military kills Americans is reaching a fever pitch.
The anti-gun paranoia is driving some people right over the edge.
It's almost time for the tissues.The greatest thing about The Internet is that you can quote something and totally make up the source. - George Washington
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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #83)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:12 PM
Taitertots (5,429 posts)
90. I wouldn't go that far, but some people would get schadenfreude from seeing their ideological...
opponents killed by the American military.
Some people are irrationally terrified that their friends and neighbors own non-military firearms. Their defense mechanism to this terror is thinking that the American military will protect them from their friends and neighbors.Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo
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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #83)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:28 PM
Lizzie Poppet (1,638 posts)
101. All gleefully postulated by people who never served a day in their life.
Pure comedy gold...
Of course, the obligatory nadin post:
Response to jody (Reply #39)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:15 PM
nadinbrzezinski (114,863 posts)
128. Since you asked
1.- Guard...a governor can authorize a guard unit to fly 'em.
2.- You do know DHS has air assets as well, insert alphabet soup here.
How much and where and how do they get their fuel, Nadin? Also, where do their crews and technicians live Nadin?
The rest of the thread is mostly masturbation. Hoyt get slapped around before finding a few supporters.
