primitives discuss slashing social security

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8904194

Oh my.

RC  (1000+ posts)      Sun Aug-08-10 04:21 PM
THE ROYAL CROWN COLA PRIMITIVE
Original message

slash Social Security?
 
Dear MoveOn member,

You can't make this stuff up. The economy is in shambles, unemployment is at record levels and home foreclosures are soaring. Congress can't get it together to act on these issues. But there's growing momentum in Washington to—wait for it—slash Social Security?

Believe it. Republicans are campaigning on benefit cuts. Conservative Democrats like Steny Hoyer are echoing their talking points.

Everyone's counting on the Deficit Commission to do the dirty work. The commission is stacked with conservatives who've embraced cutting Social Security, and both houses of congress promised to fast-track a vote on its recommendations.  That means that even though no jobs bill can pass congress right now, Social Security cuts might.

To stop the cuts, we need to send a crystal-clear message to members of Congress: Americans reject benefit cuts, and we expect them to do the same. Can you sign our promise to oppose cuts to Social Security? We'll use your signature to pressure them to sign a pledge protecting Social Security while they're home in your state for recess. But we need a strong response to make our point.

My response -

I am 66 and have been working for 48 years to get to retirement age and NOW YOU WANT TO CUT MY social Security? Don't think so!

How about looking at your own pay and retirement benefits first!

Social Security is and never was part of the general Fund and therefore cannot be part of the solution to curb the Bush Administration debt. Go look at the people at the top that have the money instead of those of us at the bottom that are struggling to survive!

Psssst.

franksolich has at least a partial solution.

Derail the social security disability gravy train on which so many primitives are riding, because they're "too depressed" to work, and use that money instead to help bolster up the fund for old people.

SoCalDem  (1000+ posts)        Sun Aug-08-10 04:25 PM
THE SILLY PRIMITIVE, WHO'S NEARING 65 YEARS OLD
Response to Original message

1. Um..Johnson put SS into the general fund and allowed congress to gut it & use the Boomer payments at will, replacing it with worthless IOUs..

"They" say that the IOUs are backed with the full-faith of the treasury.. well..isn't that special.? Don't we all have full faith in that?

laughingliberal  (1000+ posts)      Sun Aug-08-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
 
3. I have faith. I keep it right next to my hope.

snake in the grass (1000+ posts)        Sun Aug-08-10 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
 
14. Where do you keep your "change"? 

I used mine to buy a pitchfork. I have the feeling I'll be needing it soon!

elleng  (1000+ posts)        Sun Aug-08-10 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
 
2. No, they don't WANT to, and they won't do it; we won't let them.

(I'm 65.)

Wow.  The elleng primitive's about 20 years older than franksolich thought she was.

Ooops.

Faygo Kid  (1000+ posts)        Sun Aug-08-10 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
 
4. THIS is the issue for the Dems. Unfortunately, our president stacked the deck.

The "deficit commission" appointed by our president has been stacked to destroy Social Security and Medicare. I have always supported him with money and volunteer time, but there is no doubt as to where he is going.

I am 59. Maybe I will retain some benefits. My daughter - 34 - won't. Why did you stack this commission against us, Mr. President?

Vincardog  (1000+ posts)      Sun Aug-08-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
 
6. Why did you stack this commission against us, Mr. President? Because that is what DLC faux centrist

Corporate owned democrats DO.

RC  (1000+ posts)      Sun Aug-08-10 04:38 PM
THE ROYAL CROWN COLA PRIMITIVE
Response to Reply #4

7. But.., but..., but... Obama is a far Left Wing radical Liberal.

Fox and Rush and even the editorials in the local paper says so. I don't understand.

Monique1  (295 posts)      Sun Aug-08-10 04:44 PM
THE MONICA LEWINSKY PRIMITIVE
Response to Reply #7

9. This stuff scares me

I'm almost 69 yrs old - if my SS is cut I don't know what I will do. Maybe buy a tent and rent a camping place for the rest of my life but that does not give me hope to live. Oh, I forgot, just die! I was going to place the sarcasm here but I can't

Faygo Kid  (1000+ posts)        Sun Aug-08-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
 
10. They claim that it won't affect anyone over 55. I don't believe it.

Obama appointed a stacked deck, every single one of them devoted to destroying Social Security.

I am 59. I hope that you and me can cling to Social Security despite what is coming.

Lifelong Protester  (1000+ posts)        Sun Aug-08-10 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
 
11. I hope everyone here is being as proactive on this as they can be.

I have called both of my senators (one is Kohl, who is the ranking member on the Special Committee on Aging, and against any messing with SS or Medicare), called my congressman, written to all three.

I joined MoveOn when they identified this as an issue (at least I have eSigned all the petitions) and belong to the Committee to Protect Social Security and Medicare.

I am 55, and have been paying in since I was 15. They better cut the war spending first, or they will have a war on their hands. The older baby boomers are and will be retiring at a high rate, with a lot of time on our hands to organize protests.

Anyone else feel like a good old fashioned sit-in?

[Mike220]

They better cut the war spending first, or they will have a war on their hands.

 

DUmmies are funny when the try to talk tough.

 

[Texacon]

And yet they wonder why we don't want the government to have OUR money. 

Hey, DUmmies, guess what .. once you send the government your money it is no longer your money.  They can and will do what they want to with it.

Now maybe you have a clue.

KC

[JohnnyReb]

DUmmies are funny when the try to talk tough.

 

They're so cute when they think their handouts are about to be cut....

[Allentownjake]

Well Social Security is ironically enough for all the talk, is the most solvent retirement vehicle going right now.

Medicare still has the best fraud program going.  When you have the force of law to prohibit someone from receiving any benefit payment from the federal government if you are caught, only the stupid or connected defraud medicare.  OIG exclusion list is a bitch to be on.

Mostly because of the governments ability to tax current workers, to fund for benefits to retired workers.

All other retirement vehicles are largely tied up in the financial ponzi scheme in Manhattan. 

When I used to work in that industry I looked at demographic changes and realized it wasn't going to end well for baby boomers looking at monthly statements thinking they were going to retire wealthy.  The demographics from 18-29 have the largest U6 number.  People who want to work who are either unemployed or underemployed.  These are formative years in the earning powers of a career.  It is the time you should be working the hardest.

This mixed with the laws of supply and demand and a long term environment where I see continued wage deflation.  Translation, less people buying stocks.  The big banks, can only play the HFT game so long.  Eventually all the redemptions going on and outflows is going to kick them in the balls and they are going to give up, and maybe return to actually banking.

[USA4ME]

Social Security was always a money grab.  When it was passed under FDR, men were often the sole breadwinners of the family, and the average male lived to age 66.  So they made Social Security eligibility start at age -- you guessed it -- age 65.  With the average citizen living longer, the only way to keep it solvent is to keep raising the age requirements.

Now we've reached the point where the Fed gov't garners from 14.2% to 15.3% of your wages, depending on if you are self-emplyed or work for someone else (The rate is 15.3%.  But if you are employed and paid via W-2, then your employer is really paying $1.0765 instead of $1.00, of which 0.153 is deducted from your paycheck.  Ergo, $1.0765 divided by 0.153 = 14.2%).  No, thank you.  I can take that amount and invest it on my own and do much better at not only taking care of my own retirement, but also doing what I can to help those who can't work and are in need.  I don't think any descent American minds helping those who are in need, and we're certainly better equiped and informed to do it as individuals than through some gov't bureaucrat sitting in a cubicle in DC.  I propose those in need would be better cared for by individuals helping from their own pocket than the current system does.

My experience is that most conservatives have viewed SS and Medicare as money they'll never see again, and if they happen to be able to get back a small portion of what they paid in, they'll consider themselves fortunate to have done so.  But certainly don't ever bank on it being there; go on about your business as though it's gone.  As you can see from the comments on Skin's island, the libs look at it as a right and something else that's owed them for just being alive.

.

[Allentownjake]

Social Security was always a money grab.  When it was passed under FDR, men were often the sole breadwinners of the family, and the average male lived to age 66.  So they made Social Security eligibility start at age -- you guessed it -- age 65.  With the average citizen living longer, the only way to keep it solvent is to keep raising the age of requirements.

Now we've reached the point where the Fed gov't garners from 14.2% to 15.3% of your wages, depending on if you are self-emplyed or work for someone else (The rate is 15.3%.  But if you are employed and paid via W-2, then your employer is really paying $1.0765 instead of $1.00, of which 0.153 is deducted from your paycheck.  Ergo, $1.0765 divided by 0.153 = 14.2%).  No, thank you.  I can take that amount and invest it on my own and do much better at not only taking care of my own retirement, but also doing what I can to help those who can't work and are in need.  I don't think any descent American minds helping those who are in need, and we're certainly better equiped and informed to do it as individuals than through some gov't bureaucrat sitting in a cubicle in DC.  I propose those in need would be better cared for by individuals helping from their own pocket than the current system does.

My experience is that most conservatives have viewed SS and Medicare as money they'll never see again, and if they happen to be able to get back a small portion of what they paid in, they'll consider themselves fortunate to have done so.  But certainly don't ever bank on it being there; go on about your business as though it's gone.  As you can see from the comments on Skin's island, the libs look at it as a right and something else that's owed them for just being alive.

.

I invite anyone to invest it on their own.  Quite frankly fraud is perfectly legal right now, as such I invite you to invest on your own.  Where do you plan to invest?  Honest companies aren't succeeding in this environment, and they weren't succeeding in the environment created by the last Oval Office occupant.

Now I've posted on this site from time to time, and seen a few slurs and arrows thrown my way.  Some think I'm some radical socialist.  I'm not.  I support regulated capitalism.  Caveat Emptor generally only makes the best liar wealthy.  Provides little redeeming social value.  You have to balance that with allowing a government from making the people involved in it, wealthy.  Either way you have leaches on the rest of us.

Now, like many on here, I'm seriously concerned with where this nation is headed.  Quite frankly if any of you trust Chinese Communist to give you back your money, or the Mexican Government, or a European government to enforce your property rights when a gun is not held to their head you are nuttier than the primatives you make fun of.  You want to look at revenues of our businesses, declining over here increasing overseas. 

If you think that a nation that is bankrupt from exporting all its industry to other nations can fund a military to hold guns to people's head.  You are insane.

Why do I come on here, despite our differences, whether we like it or not we are in this shit together, and quite frankly no matter which party you are a sports fan of, neither of those parties are going to come up with the problem I just posted there.

Governments, rule of law, the US dollar are all artificially created illusions, supported by the ability to enforce them.  They don't exist naturally without that force.

[Carl]

I invite anyone to invest it on their own.  Quite frankly fraud is perfectly legal right now, as such I invite you to invest on your own.  Where do you plan to invest?  Honest companies aren't succeeding in this environment, and they weren't succeeding in the environment created by the last Oval Office occupant.

Now I've posted on this site from time to time, and seen a few slurs and arrows thrown my way.  Some think I'm some radical socialist.  I'm not.  I support regulated capitalism.  Caveat Emptor generally only makes the best liar wealthy.  Provides little redeeming social value.  You have to balance that with allowing a government from making the people involved in it, wealthy.  Either way you have leaches on the rest of us.

Now, like many on here, I'm seriously concerned with where this nation is headed.  Quite frankly if any of you trust Chinese Communist to give you back your money, or the Mexican Government, or a European government to enforce your property rights when a gun is not held to their head you are nuttier than the primatives you make fun of.  You want to look at revenues of our businesses, declining over here increasing overseas. 

If you think that a nation that is bankrupt from exporting all its industry to other nations can fund a military to hold guns to people's head.  You are insane.

Why do I come on here, despite our differences, whether we like it or not we are in this shit together, and quite frankly no matter which party you are a sports fan of, neither of those parties are going to come up with the problem I just posted there.

Governments, rule of law, the US dollar are all artificially created illusions, supported by the ability to enforce them.  They don't exist naturally without that force.

You lay down the gauntlet Jake so take up the fight.

DU where you used to post and I suppose old elm tree where you do now thinks that all jobs should be union at a high $/hr wage with no explanation how that happens while competing with places that do utilize cheap labor.
Who is it that is always whining that such and such costs too much or should be "free"?

Please tell us how we do this thing?

[USA4ME]

Where do you plan to invest?

Why do you want to know?

.

[Allentownjake]

You lay down the gauntlet Jake so take up the fight.

DU where you used to post and I suppose old elm tree where you do now thinks that all jobs should be union at a high $/hr wage with no explanation how that happens while competing with places that do utilize cheap labor.
Who is it that is always whining that such and such costs too much or should be "free"?

Please tell us how we do this thing?

I have a double mind on the union wage issue.  First the people running companies, not your small businesses, your large corporations are not worth the salaries they command.  

The fact they are firing a CEO over at HP and paying him 50 million for lying on expense reports and screwing a former star of soft porn and pissing her off, is kind of obscene.

On the other side, the only real force left in labor is the municipal labor unions.  Frankly government workers have a voice with their employers.  They vote and are free to whistle blow on their employers and their employers face real world consequences.

If you ask me what is the bigger problem, I say the CEOs, who are conducting wealth destruction activities and still being paid enormous amounts.

What we have is a crisis of real patriotism in the country right now, the failure to understand and desire to pass what you value and what you build onto your next generation.  Some will blame the left, some will blame the right.  I blame both.

The entire Health Care debate was a perfect example of this.  The Insurance companies are a problem.  I worked for one for 2 years.  Tons of waste, executives making too much, government regulation as well run amok.

However the President sat up there and said, people in the Insurance industry are our friend and neighbors.  Well, so was the guy working in the typewriter factory.  Creative destruction needs to incur, and that is an industry that needs some major creative destruction.

Another example would be financial reform.  I was a registered representative as a compliance officer and as a compliance auditor for 5 years.   Quite frankly, the only reason executives would be honest in that industry was fear of jail.  

Now if you want me to be critical of conservatives, Mr. Reagan was in favor of nationalizing banking laws.  As such, practices the citizens of PA had determined were harmful to PA were made legal, by a court decision, pursued by his administration.

I believe the only solution will come from the States asserting their authority over Washington.

[Allentownjake]

Why do you want to know?

.

Curiosity, other than bullets and canned goods I got nothing.

[crockspot]

I go for a test in about ten days, and depending on the results of that, I may be joining the ranks of the DUmmies on SSD. Mine will be for physical, not mental limitations. I have many of the heart conditions that pretty much automatically qualify for disability, and I can't seem to find a job around here anyway, so why not collect it now. It won't be there by the time I hit retirement age, and frankly, I probably won't live that long anyway.

[thundley4]

On the other side, the only real force left in labor is the municipal labor unions.  Frankly government workers have a voice with their employers.  They vote and are free to whistle blow on their employers and their employers face real world consequences.

Municipal employers which I would include all government agencies do not face "real world" consequences.  Quite the opposite, for years government unions have lived in a fantasy world where there employer has an unending fund of money. Look at the states that are in the most financial trouble, at the root of each, you'll find two sources common to all.  Union wages/benefits and social programs.

[Carl]

I have a double mind on the union wage issue.  First the people running companies, not your small businesses, your large corporations are not worth the salaries they command.  

The fact they are firing a CEO over at HP and paying him 50 million for lying on expense reports and screwing a former star of soft porn and pissing her off, is kind of obscene.

On the other side, the only real force left in labor is the municipal labor unions.  Frankly government workers have a voice with their employers.  They vote and are free to whistle blow on their employers and their employers face real world consequences.

If you ask me what is the bigger problem, I say the CEOs, who are conducting wealth destruction activities and still being paid enormous amounts.

What we have is a crisis of real patriotism in the country right now, the failure to understand and desire to pass what you value and what you build onto your next generation.  Some will blame the left, some will blame the right.  I blame both.

The entire Health Care debate was a perfect example of this.  The Insurance companies are a problem.  I worked for one for 2 years.  Tons of waste, executives making too much, government regulation as well run amok.

However the President sat up there and said, people in the Insurance industry are our friend and neighbors.  Well, so was the guy working in the typewriter factory.  Creative destruction needs to incur, and that is an industry that needs some major creative destruction.

Another example would be financial reform.  I was a registered representative as a compliance officer and as a compliance auditor for 5 years.   Quite frankly, the only reason executives would be honest in that industry was fear of jail.  

Now if you want me to be critical of conservatives, Mr. Reagan was in favor of nationalizing banking laws.  As such, practices the citizens of PA had determined were harmful to PA were made legal, by a court decision, pursued by his administration.

I believe the only solution will come from the States asserting their authority over Washington.

No offense but you answered nothing other then assert that CEOs get paid to much.
Are you suggesting that doing away with that would allow the overall labor force in a company make 20,30 maybe 40 dollars/hour and be able to compete in a global market with folks on the left forever fussing that they have to spend too much on things they want so therefore they declare they are a right or entitlement?

[USA4ME]

Curiosity, other than bullets and canned goods I got nothing.

My investments are not something I discuss in public, and certainly not on-line.  But, I've never lived through a time where one can't make money on honest investments of some type, and the same is true today.  It requires a keen eye and mind, and is certainly more difficult when times are tough, but not impossible.

.

[Allentownjake]

Municipal employers which I would include all government agencies do not face "real world" consequences.  Quite the opposite, for years government unions have lived in a fantasy world where there employer has an unending fund of money. Look at the states that are in the most financial trouble, at the root of each, you'll find two sources common to all.  Union wages/benefits and social programs.

Well my brother is the beneficiary of a "social program" he is an adult and mentally retarded and the state pays for his care.  My brother will never be able to take care of himself.  Ironically enough all those liberals in our state legislature did not have mercy on programs for funding on people like my brother.  He doesn't vote and his lobbying group isn't the greatest perfectly understandable.

I don't agree with municipal unions.  I have no problem with other unions.  Frankly, you have a voice with your state, city, or county government.  You can vote.

[Allentownjake]

My investments are not something I discuss in public, and certainly not on-line.  But, I've never lived through a time where one can't make money on honest investments of some type, and the same is true today.  It requires a keen eye and mind, and is certainly more difficult when times are tough, but not impossible.

.

You are in a time where the government has legalized fraud with mark to market and various other shenanigans and you are looking at deflation and inflation in different areas at the same time, conflated with a total failure in the government to provide any stability in the economy.

I'm invested in shotgun shells to protect what my family has.

I can make money trading.  Long term, which dog to hold, not so sure.

[USA4ME]

You are in a time where the government has legalized fraud with mark to market and various other shenanigans and you are looking at deflation and inflation in different areas at the same time, conflated with a total failure in the government to provide any stability in the economy.

I'm invested in shotgun shells to protect what my family has.

I can make money trading.  Long term, which dog to hold, not so sure.

That you, and others, are confused about which route to take forward goes without saying.

.

[thundley4]

Well my brother is the beneficiary of a "social program" he is an adult and mentally retarded and the state pays for his care.

I'm sure that you have read enough on this site, to know that none of us advocate cutting social programs for those that truly need them like your brother. However welfare in itself has become nothing more than a vote buying tool and a means to keep people in poverty and under government control.

[I_B_Perky]

However welfare in itself has become nothing more than a vote buying tool and a means to keep people in poverty and under government control.

They are outbreeding the producers. You subsidize a behavior and you get more of it. It should hurt to be poor so people don't want to be that way.

[PatriotGame]

Well my brother is the beneficiary of a "social program" he is an adult and mentally retarded and the state pays for his care.  My brother will never be able to take care of himself.  Ironically enough all those liberals in our state legislature did not have mercy on programs for funding on people like my brother.  He doesn't vote and his lobbying group isn't the greatest perfectly understandable.

I don't agree with municipal unions.  I have no problem with other unions.  Frankly, you have a voice with your state, city, or county government.  You can vote.

So you, like most DUmmys, is like your brother and expect a drunk high school drop-out be paid $130,000 per year PLUS full Cadillac medical, dental, vision, retirement, and pension for nothing more than slapping go/no-go stickers on windshields in Detroit. Yet at the same time, the company CEO who is in charge of managing hundreds of thousands of employees, thousands of facilities located world-wide, billions in stocks, billions in revenues, billions in assets, government REGULATIONS 50 miles deep, research & development, public relations, advertising, and THE ****ING CORPORATION'S FUTURE DIRECTIONS - be paid 75K a year and be totally responsible for their own retirement.
Zat `bout right, DUmmy?

Clue DUmbShit - running a corporation is 'slightly' different than running YOUR Kool-Aid stand.

[PatriotGame]

You are in a time where the government has legalized fraud with mark to market and various other shenanigans and you are looking at deflation and inflation in different areas at the same time, conflated with a total failure in the government to provide any stability in the economy.

I'm invested in shotgun shells to protect what my family has.

I can make money trading.  Long term, which dog to hold, not so sure.

Shotgun shells to 'defend' the stash of Cheetos?
Who would-a thunk it?!

YOU with a gun (blink...blink...blink...) ABBOTT...ABBOOOOOOTT!!!111

[Allentownjake]

Shotgun shells to 'defend' the stash of Cheetos?
Who would-a thunk it?!

YOU with a gun (blink...blink...blink...) ABBOTT...ABBOOOOOOTT!!!111

First of all, I have a job.  I was unemployed for 8 months.  While unemployed and looking for work I volunteered at non-profits, because frankly sitting on my ass is kind of boring, plus you meet people.  I was fortunate in this environment, someone quit I got their job.  Happy about this, and am working harder than the person who quit.

I graduated with a degree in accounting with a minor in economics.  I am well aware of what is going on right now, both on corporate balance sheets and the government both state and federal.

Even being unemployed for 5 months, and the exemption of taxes on a few months of my unemployment, I was a taxpayer in both state and federal income taxes.  In fact, I owed the state of PA $30 at the end of the year.

As far as the CEOs go,  You do a shitty job like the candidate for Senate in California, I don't expect you to win the equivalent of the lottery to leave.

[Allentownjake]

So you, like most DUmmys, is like your brother and expect a drunk high school drop-out be paid $130,000 per year PLUS full Cadillac medical, dental, vision, retirement, and pension for nothing more than slapping go/no-go stickers on windshields in Detroit. Yet at the same time, the company CEO who is in charge of managing hundreds of thousands of employees, thousands of facilities located world-wide, billions in stocks, billions in revenues, billions in assets, government REGULATIONS 50 miles deep, research & development, public relations, advertising, and THE ****ING CORPORATION'S FUTURE DIRECTIONS - be paid 75K a year and be totally responsible for their own retirement.
Zat `bout right, DUmmy?

Clue DUmbShit - running a corporation is 'slightly' different than running YOUR Kool-Aid stand.

No ****ing shit it is different than running a Kool-Aid stand, however, you think it is ok we reward failure with golden parachutes when people fail abysmally?  That makes a shit load of sense.  You've run the company into the ground and destroyed shareholder value.  Here is 50 million to retire.

[Carl]

First of all, I have a job.  I was unemployed for 8 months.  While unemployed and looking for work I volunteered at non-profits, because frankly sitting on my ass is kind of boring, plus you meet people.  I was fortunate in this environment, someone quit I got their job.  Happy about this, and am working harder than the person who quit.

I graduated with a degree in accounting with a minor in economics.  I am well aware of what is going on right now, both on corporate balance sheets and the government both state and federal.

Even being unemployed for 5 months, and the exemption of taxes on a few months of my unemployment, I was a taxpayer in both state and federal income taxes.  In fact, I owed the state of PA $30 at the end of the year.

As far as the CEOs go,  You do a shitty job like the candidate for Senate in California, I don't expect you to win the equivalent of the lottery to leave.

We have right now an administration that believes as most DUmmies seem to...you can have a demand side economy,
Give money to the lowest levels of income and they will spend it thus creating the demand for goods and jobs.

I have asked before here and will of you since you cite some ecomomics education.

How does this create a sustaining economy for long term?