The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: franksolich on October 26, 2010, 07:19:04 PM
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9393594
Oh my.
proud2BlibKansan (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-26-10 07:06 PM
THE Die alte Sau ANNE, #19 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Original message
The real effect of teachers union contracts
For years, some people have been determined to blame teachers’ unions for all that ails public education in America. This issue has been around a long time, but, given the tenor of the current debate, it seems to bear rehashing. According to this view, teachers unions negatively affect student achievement primarily through the mechanism of the collective bargaining agreement, or contract. These contracts are thought to include “harmful†provisions, such as seniority-based layoffs and unified salary schedules that give raises based on experience and education rather than performance.
But a fairly large proportion of public school teachers are not covered under legally binding contracts. In fact, there are some 10 states in which there are virtually no legally binding K-12 teacher contracts at all (there are none in AL, AZ, GA, MS, NC, SC, TX, and VA; there is only one district with a contract in LA, and two in AR). Districts in a few of these states have entered into what are called “meet and confer†agreements about salary, benefits, and other working conditions, but administrators have the right to break these agreements at will. For all intents and purposes, these states are largely free of many of the alleged “negative union effects.â€
Here’s a simple proposition: If teacher union contracts are the main problem, then we should expect to see at least somewhat higher achievement outcomes in the 10 states where there are basically no binding contracts.
So, let’s take a quick look at how states with no contracts compare with the states that have them.
Average 2009 NAEP Score By State Teacher Contract Laws
States with binding teacher contracts
4th grade: Math 240.0 Reading 220.7
8th grade: Math 282.1 Reading 263.7
States without binding teacher contracts
4th grade: Math 237.7 Reading 217.5
8th grade: Math 281.2 Reading 259.5
more . . . http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-blo...
proud2BlibKansan (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-26-10 07:19 PM
THE Die alte Sau ANNE, #19 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #1
4. We had leadership training today
And at one point, we were working in groups and we had to identify barriers to student achievement. And the administrator in my group, who was a very active union member when she was a teacher, wrote down "union contracts". I must have given her a look because she said "I'm sorry, I know that upsets YOU but we all know it's true." I said "No, it's not and I have research to prove it isn't."
Everyone else in our group asked me about this research. The admin said nothing. I just forwarded this to the group, and included the admin.
She had told me earlier she had seen WFS and was appalled by the union tactics that kept us from doing our jobs. I told her we must have seen two different movies cause I don't remember that part.
Starry Messenger (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-26-10 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Good lord, she really said that?
How do these gullible people make it to administrative positions? "The movie told me it is true!".
proud2BlibKansan (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-26-10 07:25 PM
THE Die alte Sau ANNE, #19 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #6
8. Yep. She's a trip.
I've known her for years. And she is actually a great admin. One of our few good ones. I normally don't mind her.
But she is a republican
Need I say more?
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proud2BlibKansan (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-26-10 07:19 PM
THE Die alte Sau ANNE, #19 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #1
4. We had leadership training today
And at one point, we were working in groups and we had to identify barriers to student achievement. And the administrator in my group, who was a very active union member when she was a teacher, wrote down "union contracts". I must have given her a look because she said "I'm sorry, I know that upsets YOU but we all know it's true." I said "No, it's not and I have research to prove it isn't."
Everyone else in our group asked me about this research. The admin said nothing. I just forwarded this to the group, and included the admin.
She had told me earlier she had seen WFS and was appalled by the union tactics that kept us from doing our jobs. I told her we must have seen two different movies cause I don't remember that part.
Riiiigghhhhtttttt,..... ::) :whatever:
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If unionization was the best thing to happen to education then we should have been first in the world in the 70s.
Except that is when the unions all went marxist and performance has dropped ever since.
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Let me explain something to you, Anne: Any organization that would fight to prevent someone like you from losing their job is not a moral organization. You, and those like you, need to be ostrazised from society, and you certainly don't need to be allowed near children at all.
.
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Starry Messenger (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-26-10 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Good lord, she really said that?
How do these gullible people make it to administrative positions? "The movie told me it is true!".
But you people seem to keep Mikey Moore well fed. :whatever:
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Let me explain something to you, Anne: Any organization that would fight to prevent someone like you from losing their job is not a moral organization.
Man, ain't that the truth.
The Die alte Sau, if she were to join, would lower the moral tone of even the Ku Klux Klan or the Symbionese Liberation Army or the mafia.
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Wait a second. I don't know where she is getting her numbers from, or any breakdown on anything else. Those numbers look very likely to be inside the margin of error. She, at worst, is claiming unions make no real difference conserning tests.
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Anne, a word with you, if I may:
You brain-damaged scrunt. You skank. You skeve. You whore for all that is unholy.
Do you realize that when adjusted for inflation, we spend (quite literally) 4-5 TIMES per student what we did 50 years ago? All in the name of improving education.
http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66
And what has all that "improvement" gained us? Dropout rates are not significantly reduced. College graduation rates for those over 25 years old is also flat. But more importantly, the quality of the education received has declined significantly. Kids can't do basic math, construct a sentence, or find a location on a map. Their knowledge of history and government is pathetically weak, to the point where even so-called "elite" college students can't even pass a basic civics test.
Oh, but they know how to put bananas on condoms and they "feel" good about it!
The only service that the teachers unions have performed is to line the pockets of their members and their bosses. The ultimate loser? The children you trot out and bawl crocodile tears for every time you come around with outstretched hands, claiming, "But it's for the children!!!"
No, it's for you. We know it. And using their future for your gain makes you the lowest of the low. I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, Anne, although I might consider putting you out with a pitchfork. Go play in traffic, you self-serving whore.
Or I could be more forward in case you don't understand what I'm saying?
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Wait a second. I don't know where she is getting her numbers from, or any breakdown on anything else. Those numbers look very likely to be inside the margin of error. She, at worst, is claiming unions make no real difference conserning tests.
I wonder what the graduation rates were in those states.
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As I have said before the teachers I was with during my jury duty were consumed with all things Union.
Bitch, bitch, bitch............it got old.
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As I have said before the teachers I was with during my jury duty were consumed with all things Union.
Bitch, bitch, bitch............it got old.
I think that's typical of all unions.
I went to a National Rural Letter Carriers' Association union meeting one time.
One time.
I heard so much whining and bitching, I thought I was in a room full of 6 year olds.
That was in 2006. I've never been back.
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Anne, a word with you, if I may:
You brain-damaged scrunt. You skank. You skeve. You whore for all that is unholy.
Do you realize that when adjusted for inflation, we spend (quite literally) 4-5 TIMES per student what we did 50 years ago? All in the name of improving education.
And what has all that "improvement" gained us? Dropout rates are not significantly reduced. College graduation rates for those over 25 years old is also flat. But more importantly, the quality of the education received has declined significantly. Kids can't do basic math, construct a sentence, or find a location on a map. Their knowledge of history and government is pathetically weak, to the point where even so-called "elite" college students can't even pass a basic civics test.
Oh, but they know how to put bananas on condoms and they "feel" good about it!
The only service that the teachers unions have performed is to line the pockets of their members and their bosses. The ultimate loser? The children you trot out and bawl crocodile tears for every time you come around with outstretched hands, claiming, "But it's for the children!!!"
No, it's for you. We know it. And using their future for your gain makes you the lowest of the low. I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, Anne, although I might consider putting you out with a pitchfork. Go play in traffic, you self-serving whore.
Or I could be more forward in case you don't understand what I'm saying?
How true that is Sparky. How true. :hi5: