Author Topic: fuel pump or something else?  (Read 2758 times)

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Offline franksolich

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fuel pump or something else?
« on: November 24, 2008, 06:00:33 PM »
Herein lies an example of the life one has when one has to put together a puzzle of 1000 pieces, but one has only circa 300 pieces.

Last summer, I went to my mechanic, telling him that the motor vehicle seemed to start "rough" on some days.  Not really "rough," but there was a noticeable difference, and I like to catch problems when they're still small problems.

Along the way, I mentioned that I was using ethanol-blended fuel, rather than regular gasoline, because it was being a very wet summer.  I know ethanol-blended fuel is more appropriate for cold weather, but I had assumed it's also appropriate when the weather is really damp in warm weather, which it was.

He told me no, that wasn't so; ethanol-blended fuel is appropriate for cold weather only, never in the summer whether dry or wet.  He told me to use regular gasoline, which I started doing.  There were no further problems all summer long, no "rough" starts.

This autumn, when I had the mechanic "winterize" the vehicle, he noticed something.

It was one of those days when I was bone-weary tired of "listening" to people, and so the first part, the problem as he described it, I let slide right by me, so as to conserve my intellectual and physical energy to hear the second part, his proposal of a solution.

We deaf do that; we're very selective and evaluative and judgemental about what we're going to "hear;" it demands too much of our mental and physical strength to "hear" everything, or even half of everything.

So I missed the first part (the problem), but got the second part (the solution).

He told me to turn the key in the ignition until just before it actually starts the engine; i.e., to turn it until the lights on the dashboard come on, and no further.  He said to have it there for 15, 20, or 25 seconds, and then to turn it off.....and then start the vehicle.

This worked, until last night.

Now, I am guessing here, and so don't take this as what he said, because I really don't know what he said, about the problem.  I suspect he told me that the motor vehicle, if it sits "too long" (in this case, two days), the gasoline in the fuel line leading to the motor spills back down into the gasoline tank, meaning the fuel line has nothing but air when one first attempts to start the automobile.

And that this ignition thing, where one doesn't quite turn on the motor, compels fuel to come back up through the fuel line, and so that when one starts the vehicle, it starts.

Remember, I assume that's what he said.

Last night, when I did that thing, for the first time in several months, it didn't work.

As it was late Sunday night, there was no one around.

I walked halfway to town (town is about 8 miles from here), to the residence of the village curmudgeon, the junk-collector, who has the distinction of being the only illiterate individual in all of northeastern Nebraska.  He's reasonably old, and has no teeth.

However, that does not detract from the stark fact that he knows stuff, probably all of it useful stuff.  He's a great person to have around in an emergency or other time of need.

We came back here in his 1948 pick-up truck, and he tried to diagnose the problem; he said a great many things, but as it was dark, and I was tired, I caught none of it.

When we first started jump-starting the vehicle, it wouldn't work.

Then I had to go into the house to get something.  While I was there, he got the vehicle started.  For whatever reasons, it seemed (please notice the "seemed") to me that the motor vehicle was busting and popping and shaking more than it reasonably should, although it was humming along healthily by the time he disengaged the jump-starting cords.

He told me some more things, but I didn't catch any of it, as I was worn out.

There were no mishaps last night, and no problems starting the vehicle this morning.

Now, I don't like this, having a mechanical problem late at night on a weekend, when no one is around.  This is a busy week for everybody, but I'm going to try to get the issue addressed, some time tomorrow (Tuesday).

But for right now, can someone speculate?  I'm guessing it might be a bad fuel-pump, but what other things might it be?
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 07:38:20 PM »
My only other guess would be water in your gas tank.   :clueless:
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Offline Carl

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 08:37:19 PM »
Too many interrelated things to make a solid guess but here goes.

By turning the key on and leaving it on the electric fuel pump starts and will pump until it develops pressure in the system then it will shut down until needed.
This would lead one to think that it was a weak fuel pump.
As to why it wouldn`t start for you over the weekend I really have no guess unless to ask if you had hit the gas pedal,this use to be the thing to do with a carburated engine but not a fuel injected one.
You never touch the gas when starting them.

I am guessing that you cranked the motor until the battery was dead by what you wrote so it isn`t all that strange for it to run rough when it started as the computer may have had to remember how to control the various systems.
I kid not,if a battery goes completely dead it sometimes takes a few to several minutes of running to remember the proper idle speed and so on.

If you didn`t crank very long and the battery was dead it may be a case of poor opening of the injectors as they are not opened by pressure but are a solenoid type.
As you crank you are drawing 3-4 volts from the system and if that is weak you could be lower so the pump isn`t working as good as it could be.
By building pressure in the system before you started cranking it may be cheating something and that is why it has been working.

Just a bunch of somewhat rambling guesses Frank,maybe someone else can think of something else.

Offline Thor

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 09:10:01 PM »
Don't forget the fuel filter. They need to be changed every so often. There are many things that can cause rough idling. You need to put the vehicle on a code reader  and see what codes there are. A vacuum leak can be a good example of rough idling. I'm assuming the check engine light is on ??
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Offline Odin's Hand

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2008, 09:21:59 PM »
I noticed residual rust in my fuel tank after I diagnosed my fuel pump as broken this past summer. The rust had clogged the pump filter and overloaded the pumping mechanism. Gasoline does not cause  steel to oxidize. The small ratio of water to ethyl alcohol in ethanol would accomplish that, though. I don't fuel my truck with it anymore.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 09:35:01 PM by Odin's Hand »
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Offline franksolich

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2008, 10:13:07 PM »
By turning the key on and leaving it on the electric fuel pump starts and will pump until it develops pressure in the system then it will shut down until needed.

This would lead one to think that it was a weak fuel pump.

That's my observation, and speculation about what I was told, but didn't hear.

Quote
As to why it wouldn`t start for you over the weekend I really have no guess unless to ask if you had hit the gas pedal,this use to be the thing to do with a carburated engine but not a fuel injected one.

You never touch the gas when starting them.

Right, I never pump the gasoline pedal.

It was very cold and damp that particular day (and the day before and the day after), and the vehicle had just regular gasoline in it (i.e., no ethanol blend, no additives such as what one purchases at a convenience store).

Quote
I am guessing that you cranked the motor until the battery was dead by what you wrote so it isn`t all that strange for it to run rough when it started as the computer may have had to remember how to control the various systems.

I kid not,if a battery goes completely dead it sometimes takes a few to several minutes of running to remember the proper idle speed and so on.

No, I stopped long before the battery was dead; it just didn't seem worth it to keep trying after I sensed, ooops, this isn't going to start.

So I had stopped long before then.

Quote
If you didn`t crank very long and the battery was dead it may be a case of poor opening of the injectors as they are not opened by pressure but are a solenoid type.

As you crank you are drawing 3-4 volts from the system and if that is weak you could be lower so the pump isn`t working as good as it could be.

By building pressure in the system before you started cranking it may be cheating something and that is why it has been working.

Just a bunch of somewhat rambling guesses Frank,maybe someone else can think of something else.

Well, pretty good guesses, but I won't know until sometime tomorrow afternoon.

Quote
Don't forget the fuel filter. They need to be changed every so often.

The fuel filter was changed around the first week of October.
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 12:55:17 PM »
1. Assuming your car is fuel injected, giving the pump a second or 2 is a good idea. (turning on the key)
2. Sounds like it needs a tune up.
3. You may have a vacuum leak, possibly in the intake/air box "tube" leading to the throttle body, IE; the "carb" for the engine.
4. Don't ever use ethanol. It's an alcohol, which by nature, absorbs water. It also attacks rubber parts. Winter is a dry time of the year BTW.
One other thought, if it is fuel injected, you might have a TPS* thats going bad. Watch for the idle speed thats too slow (or engine dies at idle) or too fast, or "searches". (goes up and down)
5. It is also possible for the sparkplug wires to go bad with the high energy (voltage in the 40KV range) distributor systems of today. I've had problems with them "wearing out" and shorting between themselves.


Hope this helps.


*throttle position sensor
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 02:37:10 PM by Wineslob »
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Offline franksolich

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2008, 03:11:31 PM »
Okay, I got done talking with the mechanic in town.

It's a weakening fuel pump, but still only in the first stages of decline, and he doesn't think it needs replaced right away.

This is a holiday week, and a busy time for mechanics.

He inquired how much gasoline I had in the tank on Sunday night when I first tried starting the vehicle, as I had commented about buying gasoline in the big city some hours later.

Remember, other than that one time, I had no problems.

I said the tank was nearing "empty," but not empty yet.

And so I got the third degree, which I assume I deserve.

Apparently especially in cold damp weather, it's a good idea to always have the tank at least one-half full.

This is something that's been drilled into my head for years, but for some really odd quirk in the perception, it refuses to sink in.  (The tank at this moment is filled to the brim.)

I suspect this hesitation about putting more than five or six gallons in at a time, after the needle reaches "E," is based upon experiences with past motor vehicles (but not for the past several years, though).

There were after all times I actually owned motor vehicles where, if there was more than five or six gallons of gasoline in the tank, the value of the gasoline exceeded the value of the vehicle.  Really.

And so in case anything happened to a long-ago vehicle, I didn't want to have invested so much money in the contents of the tank, which would be unrecoverable.

Anyway.
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2008, 04:17:20 PM »
Quote
It's a weakening fuel pump, but still only in the first stages of decline, and he doesn't think it needs replaced right away.



Uh-uh.......NOW. Don't get stranded.

“The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”

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Offline franksolich

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2008, 04:20:33 PM »


Uh-uh.......NOW. Don't get stranded.



Mechanics are busy here, and as they usually give me a deal, I don't press them.

He said bring it in, in a couple of weeks, but in the meantime always keep the tank at least 1/2 full.

This guy's good.  The best.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2008, 04:20:53 PM »


Uh-uh.......NOW. Don't get stranded.



Agreed.  A fuel pump is one of those things you don't have hanging around in your trunk, alongside a tire iron.
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Offline Thor

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2008, 05:00:18 PM »
I had a 91 Plymouth Acclaim that had some fuel pump problems. I repaired it because I tore it apart to find the problem and discovered it was a wiring problem. A couple of years later, it left me stranded along I-94, just north of Maple Grove, MN. I discovered that one of the splices had come undone. I went to KMart and bought a splice kit. There I was, on the shoulder of an on ramp, in mid Winter, under the vehicle, fixing that damned thing again.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: fuel pump or something else?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2008, 07:21:21 PM »
I had a 91 Plymouth Acclaim that had some fuel pump problems. I repaired it because I tore it apart to find the problem and discovered it was a wiring problem. A couple of years later, it left me stranded along I-94, just north of Maple Grove, MN. I discovered that one of the splices had come undone. I went to KMart and bought a splice kit. There I was, on the shoulder of an on ramp, in mid Winter, under the vehicle, fixing that damned thing again.

So THAT'S the reason you're the way you are! You should've said so from the start!

Hell, man! Have a beer on me!

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