The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: dutch508 on November 04, 2019, 06:38:46 PM
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Comatose Sphagetti (780 posts)
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212649945
My technique when debating a trumper is to dive deeper into their premise.
Example:
Guy at work two weeks ago tells me he's voting for trump. I ask him why. "Economy," he say's. "What else?" I ask. Crickets. He has no idea (Cognitive dissonance breakthrough #1.) OMG, Really?
I ask if he's seen trumps bullying/name calling. He has. I ask if it's appropriate for an adult to behave that way. His response; "Well, Obama..." "Stop;" I say, "You're shifting the focus." I ask again; "Well, Hillary..." "Stop;" I say, "You're shifting the focus again" (whataboutism). Yeah, like who gives a ****. Adults? Maxine Waters? Beto? Dumb-ass Biden? ANY of the Four ****heads that hang around AOC?
Finally after pinning him down and forcing him to answer the question, he admits name calling/bullying is wrong and it is inappropriate for an adult to behave that way (Cognitive dissonance breakthrough #2.) :rotf:
Does he still support him? Absolutely. He (and millions of others) suffer from a fear-induced psychosocial disorder.
I calmly use cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) techniques with these folks and my desire is that upon refection (if reflection comes at all) my friend will admit to himself his support is based primarily on fear and his thinking is irrational, illogical and absurd. Doubtful. The left wants to take away guns. period. The left wants to destroy the health industry. period. The left wants to destroy the energy industry. period. Don't believe it? Watch the video of you candidates saying it.
I don't expect immediate results. It's like working with addicts - it is either a growing realization that changes minds or a catastrophe (think "hitting bottom" for alcoholics.) His journey out of fear is his own. My yelling at him would do nothing. All I can do is hopefully help him break through his cognitive dissonance.
:stoner: So... the guy says the economy is doing great. You say, "yeah, but Trump tweets mean stuff!" Who The **** Cares about your little feelings, you soy-sipping momma's boy?
OMG! That's your answer? ORANGE MAN MEAN!
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
Star Member LonePirate (9,636 posts)
1. It's not the economy. It's the racism and hatred and anger which they support.
Last edited Sun Nov 3, 2019, 10:57 AM - Edit history (1)
You should have called out the lie up front because if it was truly the economy that mattered, he would have voted for Clinton to continue the Obama economy.
:thatsright:
Star Member bitterross (3,604 posts)
21. The "economy" is now a code word for racism
People will say it's the economy but they haven't the foggiest clue as to how they have actually been impacted by Trump's economy. They've forgotten the higher bill they had in April of this year already. There has been too much other junk pushed out by FOX and other media since then.
What they can see is his racism and bigotry. They can see him making sure he keeps those "uppity n-word" down and that he's making sure those greedy "illegals" are not getting their jobs and benefits. Not that these people are working any jobs or getting any benefits the undocumented people would work or get in the first place.
What they like is his outright hostility. It mirrors their anger for things over which they have no control. It's an outlet for them. He gives them direction on where to spend that anger and energy. It's at all the wrong people, but they love it anyway because they are so low-information.
Best employment numbers for minorities in recorded US history. Fact.
Prison reform that is actually working. Fact.
Lower Taxes. Fact.
somehow that all equals RACISM in the DUmpmonkies' twisted little minds. :thatsright:
Star Member The Wizard (10,189 posts)
2. Many need cult deprogramming with a professional. The cognitive dissonance, it burns itself into the unconscious like a branding iron would.
the left wants us all to go to re-education camps. Not surprising at all, really.
Star Member gulliver (10,255 posts)
5. It's the Obama economy
Newest Reality (5,715 posts)
23. Yes...and be able to create and break rapport at will, make and break states, etc.
I have often enjoyed the occasional and well-timed/paced "How do you know that?" said with sincere curiosity. I have seen people break state suddenly and look completely bit awestruck, which is a program exit, often. Using "how" is, of course, process over content.
NLP is a diverse bag of tools and the collection is growing
:thatsright:
Star Member intrepidity (486 posts)
29. More, please?
I need more tools for such discussions, do you have a handy link with relevent examples? I'm at my wit's end. Thanks.
I use the "false premise" and strawman objections, although usually they just get louder after that.
Walking away not an option, unfortunately.
That's because you can't just shout "false premise" and strawman" when our side says something.
evilhime (259 posts)
8. True story!!
I have a good friend, a very intelligent (in all other ways) person who when politics comes up and I start pointing out things like that I get responses like "you are more researched than I am, I cannot argue with you so we agree to disagree." Say what? <le sigh>
:whatever:
Star Member Delmette2.0 (1,501 posts)
12. Another true encounter with a RW'er, 6 years ago.
I was sitting at a kiosk ordering pictures from my son's wedding. A total stranger stopped behind me, said "hi, how ya doing?" I said "just fine". He then said" Did you know Obama is taking away our civil liberties?" I acted surprised and asked "Oh, which ones?" He had a blank look on his face and walked away. These folks have been around for a long time. Some have figured out to STFU others haven't.
I still wish he had stuck around to talk more.
:rotf:
Arthur_Frain (176 posts)
19. Are you trained in the profession or just giving out free advice?
“
I calmly use cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) techniques with these folks....
”
Um, you make it sound like you’ve got them on the couch.
“
my friend will admit to himself his.......
”
Yeah, this never happens either.
MY experiences with supporters of trump have been very, very different. These people have been groomed for years, CS, years. They’ve been listening to right wing radio, clicking on the feeder ads online, watching Fox News. All of those sources have resourced decades of research on human psychology, and neither you nor me is going to undo in a 15 minute conversation in the Starbucks what a decade or more of conditioning have set in ******* stone.
At worst, the “debate” deteriorates into ad hominem or worse, at best, I can generally tell by the set of their jaw, that I will be the subject of mirth at the next chumper get together they attend.
:rotf:
Comatose Sphagetti (780 posts)
27. Trained
CBT doesn't always work, and it takes time. But I find it gets better results than the "**** it" technique.
:mental:
live love laugh (3,473 posts)
30. Good luck deprogramming Cult45 Republiclowns 🤡
At this point I see them as hopeless. They can **** off and I tell them so at every opportunity I get.
:mental:
Comatose Sphagetti (780 posts)
46. My friend uses rationalization, minimization,
justification, denial, etc. as an avoidance method (he doesn't see this.)
For him to be wrong about trump would affect his ego; his sense of self. It would make him question his values, his ideology, the like-minded around him - including authority figures, community, church, and cherished loved ones. He doesn't want to go there. That's where the fear comes in (again, he doesn't see this.)
CBT breaks through the rationalization, minimization, etc., and forces people to confront psychological inconsistencies. For my friend to admit that trump's behavior is unacceptable is a small crack in the delusion that trump is the savior he believes him to be. That small crack can sometimes lead to a flood of critical thinking and self awareness.
:thatsright:
Star Member lunatica (44,436 posts)
43. The extra taxes they paid definitely contributed to the economy and it helps Trump when he charges the taxpayers for all his golfing trips. And for the building of the minuscule amount of the wall. They have to offset the tax giveaways to his rich friends.
:thatsright:
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Comatose Sphagetti (780 posts)
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212649945
My technique when debating a trumper is to dive deeper into their premise.
Example:
Guy at work two weeks ago tells me he's voting for trump. I ask him why. "Economy," he say's. "What else?" I ask. Crickets. He has no idea (Cognitive dissonance breakthrough #1.)
Actually, the "trumper" is just astounded at your dismissal of our current booming economy, i.e. avoidance rather than "diving deeper".
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The DUchebags are so cute when they think they are acting smart.
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The prevalance of bouncys has a direct corresponding proportion with how badly they're losing.
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>Comatose Sphagetti (780 posts) My technique when debating a trumper is to dive deeper into their premise.
Your name ain't Mephistophiles. The only premise is our Constitution. Follow it or GTFO.
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The prevalance of bouncys has a direct corresponding proportion with how badly they're losing.
Yeah, I think it's a way they vent their misery, sort of self-medicating, like many DUpipo do with their recreational chemicals.
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It's the racism and hatred and anger which they support.
No that's the realm of the BLM and Antifa thugs. And um...Lone Pirate...they are on your side...right along with the KKK.
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Star Member gulliver (10,255 posts)
5. It's the Obama economy
he didn't build that!
Seriously, does anyone here engage in a debate with left leaning person with the goal of making them "see the light" and switch party affiliations?
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he didn't build that!
Seriously, does anyone here engage in a debate with left leaning person with the goal of making them "see the light" and switch party affiliations?
Nope my goal is to debunk their bullshit and hit them with facts.
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why try to reason with them? They aren't going to listen. They aren't going to change.
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I ask if he's seen trumps bullying/name calling. He has. I ask if it's appropriate for an adult to behave that way.
If I were the make believe Trumper I would answer, "I don't know I'll need to ask Chimpy McCokeSpoon."
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Nope my goal is to debunk their bullshit and hit them with facts.
Deflating Progs' narratives borders on sadistic ... speaking from experience.
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(https://media1.fdncms.com/nashville/imager/stacey-campfield-master-of-conservative-humor/u/slideshow/1475546/liberals-head-up-his-ass.jpg)
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Oh geez. They complain about the fears supposedly instilled by republicans. And yet, the left holds people captive with all sorts of unjustified fears; the fear Roe v. Wade will be overturned, the fear of guns, the fear of Trump starting wars, the fear of Youtube radicalization, the fear of capitalism, and the list goes on.
Also, when you ask a person why they support Trump, and they say "the economy", there is no reason to ask "whaat else?". It's better to have one good argument than a multitude of weak ones. Of course, this DUer would ask "what else?" because they know they won't win an argument about the economy.
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The prevalance of bouncys has a direct corresponding proportion with how badly they're losing.
That and when they go off their meds and start hearing voices. :cheersmate:
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Oh geez. They complain about the fears supposedly instilled by republicans. And yet, the left holds people captive with all sorts of unjustified fears; the fear Roe v. Wade will be overturned, the fear of guns, the fear of Trump starting wars, the fear of Youtube radicalization, the fear of capitalism, and the list goes on.
Also, when you ask a person why they support Trump, and they say "the economy", there is no reason to ask "whaat else?". It's better to have one good argument than a multitude of weak ones. Of course, this DUer would ask "what else?" because they know they won't win an argument about the economy.
You forgot steal your social security and medicare. I hear those two from the dems every election season. :cheersmate:
One thing is for sure... next years election ought to be a real hoot! :popcorn:
It will be interesting to see if the pollsters will reverse course and say the President is way ahead in an effort to fire up the dems. If one was to look back on the pollsters a year out from every past election in the last 30 plus years the dem is always waaaay ahead. Until they are not after the election.
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As for Trump's "bullying and name-calling", am I the only one who thinks republicans have to somewhat be that way to survive this political climate?
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I don't recall where I've last read a thread so hilarious and so infuriating at the same time. The smug superiority of them all, along with the wrongness of them all. "Economy is code word for racist? Jaw dropping. The amateur mesmerism of the OP? Creepy. Oh Good Lord.
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Star Member LonePirate (9,636 posts)
1. It's not the economy. It's the racism and hatred and anger which they support.
Last edited Sun Nov 3, 2019, 10:57 AM - Edit history (1)
You should have called out the lie up front because if it was truly the economy that mattered, he would have voted for Clinton to continue the Obama economy.
If that is the case would not people like David Duke gotten more votes?
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Deflating Progs' narratives borders on sadistic ... speaking from experience.
But it sure is fun!