The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: ScubaGuy on July 21, 2012, 11:21:28 AM
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Another DUmmie poser shows himself. Amazing (http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002987715)
TheMastersNemesis (1,025 posts)
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The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
I know many people know how deadly the .223 round from an M-16 is or AR 15. For those people who do not know. Here is what I discovered my first days in Vietnam.
My first day in the field our squad leader shot two VC in a brief skirmish. They were left behind to harass our company when we were searching an enemy camp. I came up on the scene less than a minute after these two enemy were hit. There was not a mark on them except a couple of very small holes similar to a 22 caliber rifle. Yet they were done for because the bullet traveled all over their body. Even if you were hit in an extremity it could very well amputate that part of the body.
There was good reason why you never locked and loaded any M-16 unless you were ready for immediate action. It was simply too dangerous a weapon to be even shot by accident.
The .223 was designed to have only just enough rotation that when it strikes an object it acts like a dud and has the stopping action of a 50 caliber weapon. What makes it so bad is that the bullet is meant to travel throughout the target it hits and then fragment. The lethality of this kind of weapon is so severe that it should not be on the streets of this country.
There is no earthly reason to have such an assault weapon available to the general public. It is a murder and killing weapon.
And forget what you see in the movies. High velocity assault weapons will go through two car doors and still do damage. The only place safe in a firefight is behind the engine block.
Even the other DUmmies see through this one.
ProgressiveProfessor (17,063 posts)
7. Utter nonsense
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No sure what comic book you got that "information" from, but it does not correlate with the real world.
The .223 is chambered in many rifles outside of the M-16/AR-15 kind of rifles. It is a medium cartridge, not high power. If it did what you claim, why is it used for hunting and found in bolt action rifles.
It has nowhere near the stopping power or penetration of a 50BMG round. Basic physics will tell you that. So will the ballistic tables.
Fact are good to know. Come back when you find some
Marinedem (96 posts)
12. +1
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The story gives me serious pause. I do not believe that a real infantryman would ever "not have a weapon locked and loaded" out of fear of it. Anyone that has ever been in the infantry in a time of war knows how stupid that sounds. Anyone can claim to be a veteran online. Don't get me wrong, I realize I'm in question too by that standard. I'm just saying that the blatantly false claims made in that post combined with what smell like BS claims make the entire post suspect.
Johnny Rico (1,272 posts)
13. Ridiculous post.
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The .223 is so "powerful" it's used for hunting prairie dogs. It's not even considered sufficient for deer. Saying it has the stopping power of a .50 BMG is the height of absurdity.
Fri Jul 20, 2012, 10:58 PM
Star Member Ptah (22,624 posts)
14. I don't belive you
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The .223 was designed to have only just enough rotation that when it strikes an object it acts like a dud and has the stopping action of a 50 caliber weapon.
Star Member Drahthaardogs (707 posts)
21. Where did you come up with this line of nonsense?
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The .223 is a varmit rifle not legal for big game hunting in most western states, because it lacks the power to take down big game. Factory loads pushing a 55-grain bullet in excess of 3000 feet per second are available. At the muzzle, it generates around 1,200 ft. pounds.
In contrast, my Alaskan rifle, a .338 Remington Ultra Mag, pushes a 250 grain bullet (5 times as heavy) about 2900 feet per second, but has a muzzle energy of around 4,200 ft lbs of energy.
A .50 cal BMG generates about 13,000 ft. lbs of energy.
The .223 is a cheap round, has been militarized, and is fairly accurate. It is no way, shape, or form will compare ballistically to a .50 BMG or even a .338.
The problem here is the high capacity magazines.
Serve The Servants (263 posts)
34. Oh Jeez...
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I wonder how long it's going to be before a lurker from AR15.com gets a hold of this one and they shit all over it. (Sorry, but rightly so, if you ask me.)
On another note, I'm still trying to figure out how this kid was able to afford thousands of dollars in guns, ammo, body armor and tactical gear - plus pay the rent on time... Not to mention how in the Hell does a civilian get ****ing TEAR GAS!?!
EpsilonZer0 (3 posts)
38. OMG Get out of Here with your BS
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If you were REALLY in vietnam you would know that every GI that landed in that hell hole dropped their m16 in favor of an ak47 when they found one or wished that they could. This was because the m16 just wasnt as lethal as the ak47 in most combat situations.
Secondly the .223 WAS NOT IN VIETNAM! It was the 5.56x45mm which is very simmilar but the cases are thicker and the leade from the mouth of the cartridge to where the rifling meets it. .223 is not fully compatable with 5.56 rifles unless the rifle was made so.
And fragment my ass. In vietnam we were shooting mostly full metal jackets which make very clean holes buddy.
Hell, most States DO NOT ALLOW the use of .223 rifles for any kind of deer or large game hunting even with hollow-point bullets because its just not lethal enough to take them down.
Go through 2 car doors??? A .223 will not go through 2 car doors even at 50 yards. Get an ak47 for that.
Any gun can kill someone at near point blank range and aimed at vital areas but your argument that the .223 or 5.56 is more lethal than other types of firearms is full of holes and disinformation.
CbtEngr01 (14 posts)
46. WTF are you talking about??
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"The .223 was designed to have only just enough rotation -WHAT THE HELL DOES ROTATION HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? AS LONG AS THE TWIST RATE IS ADEQUATE TO STABILIZE THE BULLET THEN 'ROTATION' HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT-that
when it strikes an object it acts
like a dud-A DUD? PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS- and has the stopping
action of a 50 caliber weapon.-REALLY? WHAT 50 CALIBER WEAPON? A MUZZEL LOADER? EVER COMPARED ENERGY LEVELS BETWEEN THE 50BMG AND THE 223/5.56?-
What makes it so bad is that the bullet is meant to travel
throughout the target it hits and
then fragment."-WHAT? ONLY BULLETS DESIGNED TO FRAGMENT WILL FRAGMENT. THE FAMOUS FULL METAL JACKET WILL NOT FRAGMENT.
I suggest you educate yourself on external and terminal ballistics before you go spewing false information to everyone
I wonder where the DUmmie special forces guys are at? 11Boo and Arbusto have yet to put their two cents in.
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The Air Force was the original recipient of the AR-15/M-16 because the Army wasn't convinced of the effectiveness of the 5.56 round versus the 7.62 used in the M-14 IRRC. It took the Army a couple years to come around.
My Drill Sergeants also explained to us that with the smaller round...you could hump more ammo on patrol.
In addition they told us that in theory a round that wounds someone on the battlefield takes out not just the person shot...but 1-2 people needed to treat that person and/or carry them back to a medic so you take 3 people off the battle field with one shot...versus a bigger round simply killing said person and the other soldiers moving on in the fight.
True or not it seems to make sense.
It's certainly a lot more plausible than that bullshit that MasterAssClown came up with.
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The Air Force was the original recipient of the AR-15/M-16 because the Army wasn't convinced of the effectiveness of the 5.56 round versus the 7.62 used in the M-14 IRRC. It took the Army a couple years to come around.
My Drill Sergeants also explained to us that with the smaller round...you could hump more ammo on patrol.
In addition they told us that in theory a round that wounds someone on the battlefield takes out not just the person shot...but 1-2 people needed to treat that person and/or carry them back to a medic so you take 3 people off the battle field with one shot...versus a bigger round simply killing said person and the other soldiers moving on in the fight.
True or not it seems to make sense.
It's certainly a lot more plausible than that bullshit that MasterAssClown came up with.
I heard that bolded part too, back in the day; unfortunately it's the kind of thinking that makes great sense logistically and strategically, but is stupid as all Hell tactically, because (a) it only works if the enemy cares for their casualties like the US, Western Europe, or Israel do, and we haven't fought anybody like that since WW2, and (b) enemy soldiers who are wounded instead of killed will keep shooting back.
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If I am wrong please correct me but isn`t it part of the Geneva treaty that only full metal jacket bullets can be used so as to not create the horrific damage a fragmenting bullet can do?
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Let me tell you about the new sooper-dooper red/blue .22 cal. hollow point.....
uh huh...sorry...Rove says that's top secrect.
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:rofl: That there was funny.
TMN is a flippin moron.
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Thanks for reminding me, primitives-
There was a used S&W MP15 on the rack outside the Fine Guns Room at Bass Pro, on Thursday when I was in there looking around. It fit my hands nicely.
I think I'll go there again, and see if it's still there.
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If I am wrong please correct me but isn`t it part of the Geneva treaty that only full metal jacket bullets can be used so as to not create the horrific damage a fragmenting bullet can do?
You're correct, and the 5.56 in all its variants is FMJ. The whole myth here comes from the fact that in the M193 version, the spin was enough to stabilize it in flight, but with the velocity and relatively small length/diameter ratio, not so much in flesh or anything else, so they tended to tumble once in the wound, doing more damage than they otherwise would. Whether they are really more likely to break up more than other bullets in a body is pretty conjectural, but they certainly do if they hit anything hard, even a stick, on the way to the target. There is a pretty good chance one would break up if it hit a rib or other bone on the way in, I guess. This is why the 5.56 is notoriously poor at hitting an enemy through light cover...and so, also why we have M240Bs.
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DUmmies are so much fun when they get all military. The primary value of the 5.56 round is the high velocity to weigh ratio. This makes the round more unstable (problematic in a "jungle" environment) when it strikes any object. The instability causes the round to tumble and veer around inside the body. It doesn't knock the recipient back 10 feet (neither does a cal .50) but they bleed out pretty quick.
As to the AK-47 yarn absolute bullshit. If nothing else, most AK ammo in RVN was reloaded by mama san in a wet bunker.
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MasterassClown spread so much BS the crops can come in early now. Allof the others here have covered that but I just wanted to add that I have never liked the M-16 as it was chambered and if I had the choice I would have carried something else. I did however get to carry an XM-21 twice while in the 101st . Once when going to Panama for jungle training and one other time when our unit was called out for the invasion of Grenada. They made me carry both the M-16 and the XM-21 that time just to have me carry them until we would have someplace to secure both when we got there. We never got there but with all crap we had to carry another weapon didn't make it easier.
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I've seen a M16 shoot through an inline 6 block.
Once again, a DUchebag is never afraid to reveal themselves as complete clowns....and internets laughingstocks.
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I am surprised that gNads, the Master Armorer 10th Degree, has not *weighed* (pun intended) in to shed some light on this conversation. Surely, with her
vastness, er, vast storehouse of knowledge she can put this subject to rest.
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TheMastersNemesis -- Duuuuude..
My knowledge on firearms is about as vast as my fashion sense. - about enough to fill a thimble. -Its why I'm not found discussing firearms, because I really have nothing relevant to add. Its also why all of my clothes more-or-less match, because I can barely dress myself well enough to be seen in public. The missus will be more than happy to agree. In these subjects, I am utterly, hopelessly, clueless.
Anyway, my point is that when even <<I>> know that you are spouting a bunch of crap, you have totally screwed the pooch.
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There are some interesting 100 round threads going on over there too featuring Weapons Expert gNad.
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/1002987381
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/1002991916
:rotf:
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TheMastersNemesis -- Duuuuude..
My knowledge on firearms is about as vast as my fashion sense. - about enough to fill a thimble. -Its why I'm not found discussing firearms, because I really have nothing relevant to add. Its also why all of my clothes more-or-less match, because I can barely dress myself well enough to be seen in public. The missus will be more than happy to agree. In these subjects, I am utterly, hopelessly, clueless.
Anyway, my point is that when even <<I>> know that you are spouting a bunch of crap, you have totally screwed the pooch.
More to the point, when the DUmp denizens can beat this assclown's wee l'il campfire out WITH FACTS :o and not have to resort to their usual poo flinging and ad hominem attacks, this guy was done before he ever put the crack pipe down and put fingers to keyboard.
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Response to cliffordu (Reply #43)
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 11:02 AM
slackmaster (54,143 posts)
61. He pulled his entire OP out of a place where the Sun never shines
No shit, Sherlock.
It appears masterofnumbnuts stepped on his own weewee. :lmao:
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I'm waiting for 11 Boo to wade into this discussion. :popcorn:
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I'm waiting for 11 Boo to wade into this discussion. :popcorn:
Don't hold your breath. It's above numberBoohoo's pay grade.
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I've seen a M16 shoot through an inline 6 block.
Once again, a DUchebag is never afraid to reveal themselves as complete clowns....and internets laughingstocks.
Dunno about that, but the M855 round which has been in use since the M16A2 was fielded around 20 years ago is a much different round than the M193 of the Viet Nam era, and a far better penetrator; the M855 is basically our version of the longer, heavier, but less-dense steel core NATO SS109 standard bullet, and the rifling for it is close to twice the twist rate you would find in a .223 or M16/M16A1. The SS109 standard was developed to improve on the M193's long range performance, particularly its penetration at long range, but it did incidentally also substantially improve its performance against targets in light cover at normal battle ranges, too. The lower twist rates barrels of a .223 or M16/M16A1 won't stabilize M855 ammo, I can tell you it makes some pretty damned funny-looking holes at random places on the target, generally sideways and lower than point of aim, if you were to say, try it just for shits and grins.
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This dumbass lost me at .223 vs .50. Once I got finished laughing and cleaning beer off my laptop, I skipped over the rest of his bowel movement.
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I've never owned a firearm. As best I can recall I've only fired a .22LR revolver and a .357 Desert Eagle. I know next to nothing about firearms, and I still seem to know more than a guy who claims to have served in the military. Strange.
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[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-7i-svGLK8[/youtube]
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And now we find out this:
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-assault-rifle-jammed-colo-attack-121634899.html
AP Source: Assault rifle jammed in Colo. attack
AURORA, Colo. (AP) — The semiautomatic assault rifle used by the gunman in a mass shooting at a midnight showing of the latest Batman movie jammed during the attack, a federal law enforcement official told The Associated Press, which forced the shooter to switch to another gun with less fire power.
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to in order to discuss the investigation, said the disabled weapon had a high-capacity ammunition magazine.
Now will 11BravoSierra tell us how this use to happen all the time in the Nam??
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Trunk Monkey (113 posts)
125. Do you understand that most posters here are saying you're full of shit?
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As in you never set a ****ing foot in Viet Nam?
Would you care to address that ?
:lol:
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And now we find out this:
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-assault-rifle-jammed-colo-attack-121634899.html
Now will 11BravoSierra tell us how this use to happen all the time in the Nam??
Not even Kalashnikov is immune from Murphy.
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On the TV news last night I saw one of the people wounded in the shooting. He was displaying his arm and telling the reporter that the doctors had left the "shrapnel" in his arm. Turns out he was talking about shotgun pellets in his arm. The scabs on his arm looked to me like they were made by about a #4 shot.
Now, if you were going to carry a 12 ga. shotgun into a place intending to kill as many people as possible, wouldn't you use a better load?
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Not even Kalashnikov is immune from Murphy.
But....but our infantry always carried them in the Nam you know.
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AP Source: Assault rifle jammed in Colo. attack
Thank God for small miracles.
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TheMastersNemesis (1,025 posts)
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The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
I know many people know how deadly the .223 round from an M-16 is or AR 15. For those people who do not know. Here is what I discovered my first days in Vietnam.
My first day in the field our squad leader shot two VC in a brief skirmish. They were left behind to harass our company when we were searching an enemy camp. I came up on the scene less than a minute after these two enemy were hit. There was not a mark on them except a couple of very small holes similar to a 22 caliber rifle. Yet they were done for because the bullet traveled all over their body. Even if you were hit in an extremity it could very well amputate that part of the body.
There was good reason why you never locked and loaded any M-16 unless you were ready for immediate action. It was simply too dangerous a weapon to be even shot by accident.
The .223 was designed to have only just enough rotation that when it strikes an object it acts like a dud and has the stopping action of a 50 caliber weapon. What makes it so bad is that the bullet is meant to travel throughout the target it hits and then fragment. The lethality of this kind of weapon is so severe that it should not be on the streets of this country.
There is no earthly reason to have such an assault weapon available to the general public. It is a murder and killing weapon.
And forget what you see in the movies. High velocity assault weapons will go through two car doors and still do damage. The only place safe in a firefight is behind the engine block.
Little problem with your argument there Skippy. The US military has never used the .223 round ever. The M16 uses a 5.56 round.
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Thank God for small miracles.
I may have to ping my jarhead armorer but I suspect that it is not so much a miracle it jammed as that they would work in the first place. I have no great expertise in arms so if I get a chance I will defer to him on the issue of what happens when you try to feed that many rounds through a breech not really made for it from a device made who knows where.
I mean the theory sounds just wonderful but I keep thinking more of thermal expansion spring tension getting the best of things.
There is plenty of info available on why the M16 use to jam in Nam out there in cyber space.
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I may have to ping my jarhead armorer but I suspect that it is not so much a miracle it jammed as that they would work in the first place. I have no great expertise in arms so if I get a chance I will defer to him on the issue of what happens when you try to feed that many rounds through a breech not really made for it from a device made who knows where.
I mean the theory sounds just wonderful but I keep thinking more of thermal expansion spring tension getting the best of things.
There is plenty of info available on why the M16 use to jam in Nam out there in cyber space.
AKs malfunction like any other machine, and they are easily cleared but not one-handed, which is almost impossible. Generally it's the operator that is to blame, in this case the most probable scenario would be that some of his costume or gear fouled the ejection port and a fired cartridge case failed to clear it, jamming the bolt. AK magazines are both simple and exceedingly robust, so unless he was using some incredibly shitty plastic-bodied knock-off, a magazine failure is literally less than a one-in-a-million chance. I can't say I have ever seen or heard of a steel milsurp AK magazine failing, but it's always possible.
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Not even Kalashnikov is immune from Murphy.
AKs malfunction like any other machine, and they are easily cleared but not one-handed, which is almost impossible. Generally it's the operator that is to blame, in this case the most probable scenario would be that some of his costume or gear fouled the ejection port and a fired cartridge case failed to clear it, jamming the bolt. AK magazines are both simple and exceedingly robust, so unless he was using some incredibly shitty plastic-bodied knock-off, a magazine failure is literally less than a one-in-a-million chance. I can't say I have ever seen or heard of a steel milsurp AK magazine failing, but it's always possible.
I've been reading it was an AR.
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On the TV news last night I saw one of the people wounded in the shooting. He was displaying his arm and telling the reporter that the doctors had left the "shrapnel" in his arm. Turns out he was talking about shotgun pellets in his arm. The scabs on his arm looked to me like they were made by about a #4 shot.
Now, if you were going to carry a 12 ga. shotgun into a place intending to kill as many people as possible, wouldn't you use a better load?
According to Atman one uses deer shot.
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There are some interesting 100 round threads going on over there too featuring Weapons Expert gNad.
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/1002987381
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/1002991916
:rotf:
There was a "Best of" exchange in your first link...
tabasco (17,546 posts)
56. Hahahahahaha.
You live in fear. Must suck.
Signed,
Combat infantry vet.
Marinedem (102 posts)
61. Yep. That's me. Big ole fraidy cat.
I'm so scared that I don't even want free men and women to be armed around me! The thought of someone having a weapon just makes me quiver. That's why I'm such an anti gunner.
Wait, that's not me......
One wonders how an supposed combat infantry vet ever made it through combat with such a mortal fear of an armed adversary.
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An AR-15/M-16 would fail or malfunction for a few reasons.
1. a bad magazine spring or one that's fouled with dirt. I heard yesterday that he had one of those 100 round drum magazines in his AR and if so I'm wondering if he got one of those South Korean knock offs of the Beta C-mags and due to poor quality it jammed while rapid firing his rifle.
2. He may not have lubed the bolt in his AR and the carbon from the rounds caused the jam. When I was in the Army and the Guard we made sure our bolts were lubed to keep the bolts going with all the blanks we shoot. Live rounds are different but having the bolt lubed would be needed to keep the rifle working in either case
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An AR-15/M-16 would fail or malfunction for a few reasons.
1. a bad magazine spring or one that's fouled with dirt. I heard yesterday that he had one of those 100 round drum magazines in his AR and if so I'm wondering if he got one of those South Korean knock offs of the Beta C-mags and due to poor quality it jammed while rapid firing his rifle.
2. He may not have lubed the bolt in his AR and the carbon from the rounds caused the jam. When I was in the Army and the Guard we made sure our bolts were lubed to keep the bolts going with all the blanks we shoot. Live rounds are different but having the bolt lubed would be needed to keep the rifle working in either case
Good start on a list. This guy sounds like he got his training on the internet & cut rate gear. Too bad he didn't screw up quicker.
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I've been reading it was an AR.
I hadn't heard that, but then I haven't been following the details, I think the last thing I tuned in for was the fact that they had managed not to blow up the apartment building after all. The reports were all AK or AK47 for the first 24 hours, but between the press and the police stumbling all over themselves to make shit up out of their preconceived ideas bag to fill air time, it wouldn't surprise me if they hosed that up completely.
It would take several hundred rounds of the cheap shit to foul an unlubed AR bolt badly enough to make it jam, but a knock-off hundred-rounder would be the most likely thing to fail if he had an AR with one of those in it.
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The rifle was an M&P (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/explosives-removed-from-james-holmess-apartment-and-destroyed-officials-say/2012/07/22/gJQAL9XN2W_print.html).
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Yeah, I'm not sure where I picked up the AK from, but it was one of the morning news shows the morning right after. After all, even the Master's Enema was talking about .223/5.56 in his/her/its OP. Well, like I say, I have other shit going on and haven't followed the minor details as they were corrected, amended, and updated.
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Yeah, I'm not sure where I picked up the AK from, but it was one of the morning news shows the morning right after. After all, even the Master's Enema was talking about .223/5.56 in his/her/its OP. Well, like I say, I have other shit going on and haven't followed the minor details as they were corrected, amended, and updated.
Roger that.
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Another cause of malfunctions to the untrained is short cycling or limp wristing. We need to know how he was holding the M&P to be sure.
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Another cause of malfunctions to the untrained is short cycling or limp wristing. We need to know how he was holding the M&P to be sure.
Wouldn't those two be negated in a semi-auto rifle?
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Wouldn't those two be negated in a semi-auto rifle?
Negative, not having a firm grip on the weapon allows the bolt to not complete the cycling as much of the energy (Kinetic recoil) is lost to rearward movement of the firearm. This is most often associated with spring recoil type and a few gas operated weapons.
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Just a note. The S&W, M&P is a 9mm handgun, not a longarm.
Reports state that he carried an AR, which is gas operated, and thus not really influenced
by "limp wristing". The malfunction was likely caused by the after-market magazine.
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Just a note. The S&W, M&P is a 9mm handgun, not a longarm.
For some confusing reason S&W likes to use the same or similar names for different firearms.
M&P15 Rifles (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_750001_750051_757784_-1_Y)
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Just a note. The S&W, M&P is a 9mm handgun, not a longarm.
Reports state that he carried an AR, which is gas operated, and thus not really influenced
by "limp wristing". The malfunction was likely caused by the after-market magazine.
I agree but, I think poor cleaning/maintenance or bad ammo are also likely.
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I misunderstood, I though it was an M&P rifle that misfired.
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I misunderstood, I though it was an M&P rifle that misfired.
That is correct. But, it had a 100-round drum magazine that likely was the reason for the jam.
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That is correct. But, it had a 100-round drum magazine that likely was the reason for the jam.
Really. What idiot would think one of those drums would work well? Someone who doesn't know much about firearms.
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Really. What idiot would think one of those drums would work well? Someone who doesn't know much about firearms.
Steel on target, BC. Nice to see you around (hopefully for longer than five seconds!), BTW.
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Steel on target, BC. Nice to see you around (hopefully for longer than five seconds!), BTW.
And then you have this.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7aBBi-5v9c[/youtube]
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Hmmmmm...ask me if I had a preference of getting shot with a .223/5.56MM or a .308/7.62MM, besides the obvious "NEITHER" choice, which one do you think any reasonable person with more than 4 functional brain cells would choose?
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All this ammo talk gots me hot under the collar :thumbs:
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Hey DUmmie lurkers take some numbers back to TMN, because he's an idiot. Here's the comparsion between the 5.56 & 50 BMG.
5.56- 63 grain bullet- Vel. 2,970 Energy 1,238 Ft lbs
50 BMG- 750 grain bullet- Vel- 2820 Energy 13,241 Ft lbs. At 2500 yards the 50 BMG still has almost twice the energy the 5.56 has at the muzzle. The longest confirmed sniper kill was taken by a 50 BMG at about 1.5 MILES.
You DUmmies claim to be SOOOOOOO much smarter than everyone else and then they come up with this crap that a simple Google search would take care of. :hammer:
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Take a look at this. everything from 9mm to a .50 cal BMG round fired through a 60 liter barrel filled with water.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz8b3gMwld4[/youtube]
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I love that .338 Lapua almost as much as the .50 BMG.