Author Topic: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke  (Read 7253 times)

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Offline bijou

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Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« on: March 01, 2010, 05:39:11 AM »
Quote
Barack Obama's home state of Illinois is near the point of fiscal disintegration. "The state is in utter crisis," said Representative Suzie Bassi. "We are next to bankruptcy. We have a $13bn hole in a $28bn budget."
 

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Published: 8:45PM GMT 28 Feb 2010

Comments 55 | Comment on this article

The state has been paying bills with unfunded vouchers since October. A fifth of buses have stopped. Libraries, owed $400m (£263m), are closing one day a week. Schools are owed $725m. Unable to pay teachers, they are preparing mass lay-offs. "It's a catastrophe", said the Schools Superintedent.

In Alexander County, the sheriff's patrol cars have been repossessed; three-quarters of his officers are laid off; the local prison has refused to take county inmates until debts are paid.


Florida, Arizona, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and New York are all facing crises. California has cut teachers salaries by 5pc, and imposed a 5pc levy on pension fees.

The Economic Policy Institute says states face a shortfall of $156bn in fiscal 2010. Most are banned by law from running deficits, so they must retrench. Washington has provided $68bn in federal aid, but that depletes the Obama stimulus package.

This is not to pick on America. Belt-tightening is the oppressive fact of 2010-2012 for half the world. Hungary, Ukraine, the Baltics and the Balkans are already under the knife. Latvia's economy may contract by 30pc from peak to trough as it carries out an "internal devaluation", ie wage cuts, to hold its euro peg. ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/7338857/Dont-go-wobbly-on-us-now-Ben-Bernanke.html?state=target#postacomment&postingId=7342327



Offline georgephillip

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2010, 07:46:45 AM »
bijou:

Compare the state finances of Illinois with those of North Dakota, a sparsely populated state with less than 700,000 citizens living mostly in isolated farming communities.

ND is one of two states expected to meet their budgets this year. Since 2000, ND's GNP has grown 56%, personal incomes have increased by 43% and wages have grown 34%.

Why?  Probably because North Dakota is the only state in the Union to own its own bank.

Don't look to "Helicopter" Ben or Wall Street, or the Pentagon, or the US Congress for solutions.

They ARE the problem.

See: Ellen Brown webofdebtcom and ellenbrown.com for details.

Offline thundley4

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2010, 09:16:41 AM »
bijou:

Compare the state finances of Illinois with those of North Dakota, a sparsely populated state with less than 700,000 citizens living mostly in isolated farming communities.

ND is one of two states expected to meet their budgets this year. Since 2000, ND's GNP has grown 56%, personal incomes have increased by 43% and wages have grown 34%.

Why?  Probably because North Dakota is the only state in the Union to own its own bank.

Don't look to "Helicopter" Ben or Wall Street, or the Pentagon, or the US Congress for solutions.

They ARE the problem.

See: Ellen Brown webofdebtcom and ellenbrown.com for details.

And the taxes imposed by the states have no effect whatsoever on businesses?  State and local taxes are more responsible for the business climate than having a state owned bank.  Illinois has long been a Dem run state with all the giveaways that entails.

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2010, 10:49:34 AM »
In the case of the Bank of North Dakota the bank's return on equity is about 25%.

In the last decade BND has turned back a third-of-a-billion $ to the state's general fund, offsetting taxes.

The BND avoids competition with private banks, but a publicly-owned bank could enhance profits through commercial lending.

If a majority of individuals and small businesses deposited their money in their State Bank, things would Change.

Offline Eupher

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2010, 11:07:47 AM »
In the case of the Bank of North Dakota the bank's return on equity is about 25%.

In the last decade BND has turned back a third-of-a-billion $ to the state's general fund, offsetting taxes.

The BND avoids competition with private banks, but a publicly-owned bank could enhance profits through commercial lending.

If a majority of individuals and small businesses deposited their money in their State Bank, things would Change.

Are you a communist and/or a socialist?
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2010, 11:45:10 AM »
Are you a communist and/or a socialist?

Sounds like a little of both.

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2010, 03:54:03 PM »
Are you bankers or shareholders?

Instead of trillions in welfare to Wall Street speculators...

"If we had used the $700 billion to create a new financial institution, allowed it to lever 10:1, ...that would have generated $7 trillion of new lending capacity, far in excess of what our country needs. So the issue here is really not about lending. It's really about saving the bankers. And what we confused was saving the banks versus saving the bankers and their shareholders."
                                                             Joseph Stiglitz
 

Offline Eupher

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2010, 04:13:47 PM »
Are you bankers or shareholders?

Instead of trillions in welfare to Wall Street speculators...

"If we had used the $700 billion to create a new financial institution, allowed it to lever 10:1, ...that would have generated $7 trillion of new lending capacity, far in excess of what our country needs. So the issue here is really not about lending. It's really about saving the bankers. And what we confused was saving the banks versus saving the bankers and their shareholders."
                                                             Joseph Stiglitz
 

Answer the question, please. Are you a communist and/or a socialist?
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Offline franksolich

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2010, 04:50:52 PM »
In the case of the Bank of North Dakota the bank's return on equity is about 25%.

In the last decade BND has turned back a third-of-a-billion $ to the state's general fund, offsetting taxes.

The BND avoids competition with private banks, but a publicly-owned bank could enhance profits through commercial lending.

If a majority of individuals and small businesses deposited their money in their State Bank, things would Change.

Uh, problems, though.

Just as North Dakota is the only state with a state-owned bank, Nebraska is the only state with 100% governmentally-owned electric companies.

There is no such thing as a private electric company in Nebraska.

Not a kilowatt.

As with the state bank in North Dakota, governmentally-owned electrical agencies (Public Power Districts) in Nebraska came about because Wall Street and State Street were never willing to electrify Nebraska (outside the big cities), and so the people decided they had to do it themselves.

And it's worked out well.

However.

However.

However.

Both North Dakota and Nebraska are small states, with no significant history of political graft and corruption.  Both states are small enough that everybody "knows" everybody else; small enough that those running things are directly accountable to the people.  Just about everybody in Nebraska is to some degree or another intimately acquainted with members of public power boards.

So this sort of "socialism" can work.....

.....but only in small groups.

Imagine Massachusetts, for example, with either a state-owned bank or governmentally-owned electricity--the graft and corruption would be enormous.

Once in a while, a primitive on Skins's island will call for "nationalization" (by the state, not the federal government) of electrical power, which must inevitably result in higher prices for that state's electricity-users.

Imagine Barney Frank getting a "cut" on utility bills.

So it works, but only in small groups of people.
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Offline georgephillip

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2010, 09:13:10 PM »
Sorry.

I thought the question was rhetorical.

Democratic Socialist probably comes closest to answering your question.

While I've seen nothing about communism I would support, there are principles of economic democracy that make more sense to me personally than trickle down does.   

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2010, 09:18:36 PM »
franksolich:

Could the graft and corruption in the State Bank of Texas be worse than Enron?

Offline franksolich

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2010, 09:21:55 PM »
.....than trickle down does.

"Trickle down" works.....if it's allowed to work.

Just about any economic theory will work in practice, provided nobody messes with it.  Keynesian theories, for example--in which a government should expand spending during bad times, and cut spending during good times.

Well, the politicians forgot the second half of that statement, and so "Keynesian" economics has flopped.

The same with "trickle down"--it would have worked just fine, excepting that during the Reagan years, the obstructionists Vast Teddy and Tipsy O'Neill kept clogging it.

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Offline franksolich

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 09:26:34 PM »
franksolich:

Could the graft and corruption in the State Bank of Texas be worse than Enron?

A state bank of Texas would undoubtedly dwarf the multi-billion-dollar Enron (and other gigantic corporations); a whole lot more bucks.

One has recourse against corporations; one has no legal remedies for when one is harmed by a governmental agency.

And so a definite "yes," sir.
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2010, 10:06:00 PM »
... Democratic Socialist ...

Democratic Socialism is a road bump on the way to socialism, which is a road bump on the way to communism.

Yes, I very much believe in the slippery slope as history has demonstrated it to happen over and over again.  The country's now currently defined as "Democratic Socialist" might stay that way for a while, but eventually they will leave the "democracy" part behind.  No reason to even start down that path.

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Offline Eupher

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2010, 08:49:33 AM »
Sorry.

I thought the question was rhetorical.

Democratic Socialist probably comes closest to answering your question.

While I've seen nothing about communism I would support, there are principles of economic democracy that make more sense to me personally than trickle down does.   

Apology accepted. When it comes to discussion about economics, you'll hear nothing rhetorical from me.

Next question:

What is it about a government's ownership of a system that appeals to you?

Conversely, what is it about free market capitalism that you find offensive? Not to put words in your mouth, but would those potentially be graft, greed, corruption, and self-serving magnates or manipulators of the system?

 :popcorn:
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Offline georgephillip

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2010, 10:23:47 AM »
Eupher:

I see two possible forms of government: Public and Corporate.

I believe the Republican/Democrat choke-hold currently suffocating American democracy can be more easily broken than a corporate enforced police state.

Free markets don't function well when they are controlled by a fraction of 1% of the total population. Public banks and credit unions seem like a good starting point to redress our current wealth divide.

Offline Chris_

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2010, 10:39:26 AM »
Eupher:

I see two possible forms of government: Public and Corporate.

I believe the Republican/Democrat choke-hold currently suffocating American democracy can be more easily broken than a corporate enforced police state.

Public banks and credit unions seem like a good starting point to redress our current wealth divide.

"Public" as in owned by the state government.......or as in the case of Credit Unions here in this state "public" as in owned by the shareholders and depositors?

Further, if the answer is "public"  as in owned by the state government......what makes you think that the government can do a better job, when they can't seem to keep the potholes filled, and also can't seem to keep the budget that they currently have balanced?

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Offline Eupher

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 12:20:24 PM »
Eupher:

I see two possible forms of government: Public and Corporate.

I believe the Republican/Democrat choke-hold currently suffocating American democracy can be more easily broken than a corporate enforced police state.

Free markets don't function well when they are controlled by a fraction of 1% of the total population. Public banks and credit unions seem like a good starting point to redress our current wealth divide.

I didn't ask you about your preferences for "two possible forms of government". Neither did I ask you about any kind of Repub/Democrat "choke-hold" and whether it or they are "suffocating American democracy".

And I didn't ask you about police states or public banks or credit unions.

Let's try this again (and I hope you're paying attention this time):

What is it about a government's ownership of a system that appeals to you?

Conversely, what is it about free market capitalism that you find offensive? Not to put words in your mouth, but would those potentially be graft, greed, corruption, and self-serving magnates or manipulators of the system?

One thing I've learned about you libs -- you do like to deflect and to avoid answering direct questions that are placed in front of you. That kind of behavior always prompts me to ask myself what it is you're trying to accomplish -- the questions don't go away.

But just to placate you for a moment and to offer a bit of nuance to chew on:

What is it about rich people that you find offensive? Is it because they have money and you don't? Do you feel that they somehow owe you or the rest of the nation some or most of what they worked for?

Might I suggest that for those who worry about how much money a particular segment of the population has, wouldn't that worry be best structured toward finding your own better mousetrap to built, market, and sell?

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Offline Javelin

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 05:17:43 PM »
Sorry.

I thought the question was rhetorical.

Democratic Socialist probably comes closest to answering your question.

While I've seen nothing about communism I would support, there are principles of economic democracy that make more sense to me personally than trickle down does.  

I answered your question here in light format for reasons.
http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,40026.15.html

Quote
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
-= Thomas Jefferson 3rd president of US (1743 - 1826), Letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin (1802)


While Jeffersons dealing with private banks having too much power, even with them having competition, its too much power.  How do you in your right mind believe that a total government bank would be any better whatsoever?  Is that even logical?  The mess will be a nightmare beyond comprehension.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 05:20:45 PM by Javelin »

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2010, 05:26:23 AM »
Eupher"

One thing I've learned about you cons...your weakness for jumping to conclusions.

Are you really arrogant enough to think you know how much money I've made?

How does my wealth influence the relative merits of public vs private banking?

Apparently, I'm going to fast.

Instead of chewing on nuance let's start by kicking around some definitions.

"Government": Something to be feared? Or the voice of all the people?

"Free Market"?  Social construct or something that sprang full-blown from the brow of a bronze-age "god"?

"Rich People"?  Those who've earned their status on a level playing field or parasites who use inflation, war
and private banking to transfer wealth from wage earners to their offshore accounts?

Offline Carl

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2010, 06:10:54 AM »
Eupher"

One thing I've learned about you cons...your weakness for jumping to conclusions.

Are you really arrogant enough to think you know how much money I've made?

How does my wealth influence the relative merits of public vs private banking?

Apparently, I'm going to fast.

Instead of chewing on nuance let's start by kicking around some definitions.

"Government": Something to be feared? Or the voice of all the people?

"Free Market"?  Social construct or something that sprang full-blown from the brow of a bronze-age "god"?

"Rich People"?  Those who've earned their status on a level playing field or parasites who use inflation, war
and private banking to transfer wealth from wage earners to their offshore accounts?

I don`t see any conclusion Eupher reached that wasn`t spot on...you refuse to answer a direct question of any kind and like all libs that troll through instead try to play word games as a distraction.

Offline Carl

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2010, 06:21:05 AM »
Eupher"

One thing I've learned about you cons...your weakness for jumping to conclusions.

Are you really arrogant enough to think you know how much money I've made?

How does my wealth influence the relative merits of public vs private banking?

Apparently, I'm going to fast.

Instead of chewing on nuance let's start by kicking around some definitions.

"Government": Something to be feared? Or the voice of all the people?

"Free Market"?  Social construct or something that sprang full-blown from the brow of a bronze-age "god"?

"Rich People"?  Those who've earned their status on a level playing field or parasites who use inflation, war
and private banking to transfer wealth from wage earners to their offshore accounts?


What is it to you how anyone made money as long as it is legal notwithstanding your strawmen .
What about an Icon of the left Soros?
He made a vast fortune by almost bankrupting the British treasury in a less then ethical manner..condemn him?

Google "musics tax exiles" and lo and behold you can find quite a list of proud leftists that moved themselves to areas of the world to escape tax burdens from their earnings..comment?

I already know the answer and that is there won`t be one so take your populism and stick it where the sun don`t shine,it is all phony.

Offline Eupher

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2010, 08:29:45 AM »
Eupher"

One thing I've learned about you cons...your weakness for jumping to conclusions.

Are you really arrogant enough to think you know how much money I've made?

How does my wealth influence the relative merits of public vs private banking?

Apparently, I'm going to fast.

Instead of chewing on nuance let's start by kicking around some definitions.

"Government": Something to be feared? Or the voice of all the people?

"Free Market"?  Social construct or something that sprang full-blown from the brow of a bronze-age "god"?

"Rich People"?  Those who've earned their status on a level playing field or parasites who use inflation, war
and private banking to transfer wealth from wage earners to their offshore accounts?

*Sigh.* I see you still can't answer the questions first proposed to you. Didn't your Mommy tell you that it's not polite to answer a question with a question?

Come back and play when your Mommy teaches you how to be polite in adult company. 
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Offline Javelin

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Re: Don't go wobbly on us now, Ben Bernanke
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2010, 06:07:59 PM »
Eupher"

One thing I've learned about you cons...your weakness for jumping to conclusions.

Are you really arrogant enough to think you know how much money I've made?

How does my wealth influence the relative merits of public vs private banking?

Apparently, I'm going to fast.

Instead of chewing on nuance let's start by kicking around some definitions.

"Government": Something to be feared? Or the voice of all the people?

"Free Market"?  Social construct or something that sprang full-blown from the brow of a bronze-age "god"?

"Rich People"?  Those who've earned their status on a level playing field or parasites who use inflation, war
and private banking to transfer wealth from wage earners to their offshore accounts?

Semantics.... I dont really care how someone perceives it.  What is real is what is important.  That proof is found in history.  Go there then answer your own questions. 

Principles can never be removed and replaced by theory.  This is how you start war.  I do not mean a philosophical war, I mean a real war with guns, bombs and dead people.  How many representations do you need in the past 2000 years?  Your ideas are not new, nor ours. 

Confirm your beliefs by truth, not what you want to see.