The Conservative Cave
The Bar => Introductions & Subsequent Welcomes => Topic started by: oFrosty on April 06, 2013, 12:53:46 PM
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Hi everyone,
I'm a college student. I come from a liberal perspective. I grew up with a supportive, liberal family. My father runs a small business. We're relatively well off.
I am currently in a class analyzing Marx's Capital Vol I (his theory on capitalism).
In questioning some of the perspectives of Marx, I'm trying to understand the perspective outside of my institutionalized ideology. I am not interested in any emotionally-driven quarrel with anybody here and just aim to gain new perspectives.
All I ask is you give me some common decency, and I can promise I will not go out of my way to provoke ideological fights. Feel free to shoot me a private message if you want to talk with me one on one.
Here is my working "communist manifesto," as EagleKeeper recommended (http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,85719.msg1063398.html#msg1063398) I post. It's still changing.
First and foremost, I have faith in humanity. I believe there can be more than one reality — liberals and conservatives are just one example of this — and more than one reality can be understood and respected.
I think corporations and the accumulation of money-power are the biggest threats to individual and collective liberty. I believe market fundamentalism is naive. I am still working out my own understanding of the economy.
People and corporations with obnoxious accumulations of wealth have the social power and monetary power to manipulate the political system, which is not the way it was intended to work.
I believe in voluntary community organization, not involuntary collectivism, and I think there is power in community and crowds that must be embraced to overcome the destructive forces of corporate and money power.
Government is too big to be effective and is so wasteful. Smaller government is good.
Individual creativity, passion, empathy, and responsibility are important. Cooperation and collaboration are just as important.
Ethically, I believe every human being has a right to real food, clean water, a decent home, and connection with their community. I think the solution to that is not cheaper McDonalds food, not government welfare, but community's coming together, working together to help support one another. This doesn't mean special places for poor people. I mean respectable places where poor people are no longer suffocated by poverty, but able to connect with their community and have a better opportunity to have a decent life.
Tell me what you think. If you're interested in starting an in-depth conversation, let's start a new thread.
Thanks to EagleKeeper for recommending I start this thread.
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Welcome! :cheersmate:
Couple of points, if you simply said you were a college student, we would assume you were of the liberal perspective unless you stated otherwise, because what other chance have you had.
Secondly, you should do your research and find out who financed Karl Marx. It will open your eyes.
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Why are you in collage, I hear it's expensive?
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Welcome oFrosty.
If you are sincere about wanting to know the conservative point of view, I would love to give you mine and I'm sure others here would like to too. But some will think you are a troll.
I kind of thought when I read your post of the "10 conservative things", that you were in school and possibly here doing research for maybe a class paper.
However, I hope we can set you straigt on capitalism and Marx. It's really not your fault either, as most of you kids have been brainwashed with this kind of thinking.
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Why are you in collage, I hear it's expensive?
Imagine all the poor people a compassionate liberal could bleed for with that triple-the-rate-of-inflation tuition!
Instead, he finances a few radical Marxist professor's luxurious swimming pools and saunas!
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Welcome! :cheersmate:
Couple of points, if you simply said you were a college student, we would assume you were of the liberal perspective unless you stated otherwise, because what other chance have you had.
Secondly, you should do your research and find out who financed Karl Marx. It will open your eyes.
Thanks! I do suppose that's the norm..
I know that Marx was commissioned to write the Communist Manifesto, which I'm not all that interested in. I think his partner (the son in law of a rich capitalist, I believe) funded most of his other work. Otherwise, I think he was a smart dude with some critical insights into the how the economy functions that have been lost as his name has grown increasingly toxic.
Additionally, what he hated about capitalism would be appalling to most business owners today — for example, in a world of no such thing as the weekend or a standard 8 hour working day, is it right for factory owners to force workers to labour for 12 - 20 hours a day, every single day, in appalling conditions?
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Why are you in collage, I hear it's expensive?
To learn. To meet beautiful and brilliant people. To grow.
It is expensive.
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Welcome oFrosty.
If you are sincere about wanting to know the conservative point of view, I would love to give you mine and I'm sure others here would like to too.
Thank you Dori.
But some will think you are a troll.
Any advice on dealing with that?
I kind of thought when I read your post of the "10 conservative things", that you were in school and possibly here doing research for maybe a class paper.
It's not for a class, but sort of provoked by a class.
However, I hope we can set you straigt on capitalism and Marx. It's really not your fault either, as most of you kids have been brainwashed with this kind of thinking.
I don't know how I feel about being "set straight." :) But I would love to get a better understanding of your perspective, so I can form my own perspective as opposed to adopting a prescribed ideology!
Thanks again!
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Why?
For what reason are you attending collage?
Is it so you can be educated and go out to the unwashed populace and help us be better people?
Or are you attending collage in an effort to make yourself more hireable?
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Imagine all the poor people a compassionate liberal could bleed for with that triple-the-rate-of-inflation tuition!
You're right.
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Why?
For what reason are you attending collage?
Is it so you can be educated and go out to the unwashed populace and help us be better people?
Or are you attending collage in an effort to make yourself more hireable?
To explore for the sake of wonder, curiosity, personal-growth, and passion. I'm into physics and political economy.
I don't care about being hirable – working for someone is not the only way to contribute to society. I care about being a better human.
After college, I want to start an organization to help start more self-reliant, cooperative communities. But that dream's still evolving.
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To learn. To meet beautiful and brilliant people. To grow.
It is expensive.
You could do all that and maybe even get an education by spending that money on travelling.
There used to be some credit card commercial or something where an Australian dude made that point. I always thought it was quite a brilliant point.
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To learn. To meet beautiful and brilliant people. To grow.
It is expensive.
DAMN! College must have changed since I went in the 1960's.
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Additionally, what he hated about capitalism would be appalling to most business owners today — for example, in a world of no such thing as the weekend or a standard 8 hour working day, is it right for factory owners to force workers to labour for 12 - 20 hours a day, every single day, in appalling conditions?
Know what's funny? That evil capitalist Henry ford doubled workers' wages and shortened their work day. He did it to improve his product and reduce turnover.
Don't you think the market corrects things? Or do you assume that a McDonald's worker deserves a $20-$25 per hour "living wage"?
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You could do all that and maybe even get an education by spending that money on travelling.
There used to be some credit card commercial or something where an Australian dude made that point. I always thought it was quite a brilliant point.
Oh, I considered it. But college also covers $15,000 a year in scholarship for me and there's the degree at the end. It's a trade off.
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Know what's funny? That evil capitalist Henry ford doubled workers' wages and shortened their work day. He did it to improve his product and reduce turnover.
Don't you think the market corrects things? Or do you assume that a McDonald's worker deserves a $20-$25 per hour "living wage"?
Yep that was a good thing. Took about 100 years AFTER Marx though, AFTER worker revolts.
I assume the McDonald's worker is a human being with dreams beyond working McDonalds, and under the current political-economic system, many of those workers don't have a shot at achieving those dreams. They have to work much harder to climb the ladder, and the higher up you get, the easier it is to climb up even higher.
I don't believe the capitalist mode of production is the ultimate answer to how we organize our economy. I want to see the same democratization of government take place in workplaces.
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I don't care about being hirable – working for someone is not the only way to contribute to society. I care about being a better human.
After college, I want to start an organization to help start more self-reliant, cooperative communities. But that dream's still evolving.
Yep that was a good thing. Took about 100 years AFTER Marx though, AFTER worker revolts.
I assume the McDonald's worker is a human being with dreams beyond working McDonalds, and under the current political-economic system, many of those workers don't have a shot at achieving those dreams. They have to work much harder to climb the ladder, and the higher up you get, the easier it is to climb up even higher.
I don't believe the capitalist mode of production is the ultimate answer to how we organize our economy. I want to see the same democratization of government take place in workplaces.
:rotf:
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Yep that was a good thing. Took about 100 years AFTER Marx though, AFTER worker revolts.
I assume the McDonald's worker is a human being with dreams beyond working McDonalds, and under the current political-economic system, many of those workers don't have a shot at achieving those dreams. They have to work much harder to climb the ladder, and the higher up you get, the easier it is to climb up even higher.
I don't believe the capitalist mode of production is the ultimate answer to how we organize our economy. I want to see the same democratization of government take place in workplaces.
Couldn't have been much of a 'worker's revolution' then.
And are you saying that if I do the work, start a business, get it going, keep it running in spite of insane and inane government regulations then you come along and tell me how to run it?
NO!
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I sense that this thread is more about seeking identity than professing one's convictions.
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Further more, I do not want to walk into a Noodles & CO an not get the food I like to get from a Noodles & CO because some stupid, young, idiotic Marxists think they know what is good for me and what I should want.
Leave them to their poverty of mind!
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I assume the McDonald's worker is a human being with dreams beyond working McDonalds, and under the current political-economic system, many of those workers don't have a shot at achieving those dreams. They have to work much harder to climb the ladder, and the higher up you get, the easier it is to climb up even higher.
You do know minimum wage jobs like McDonalds is an entry level type job for kids don't you? Have you ever worked in a place like that? If not, maybe to expand on your education you should. And before you branch out into your chosen career, you should also try starting your own business for profit. The best teacher in the world is experience.
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I sense that this thread is more about seeking identity than professing one's convictions.
It is.
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And are you saying that if I do the work, start a business, get it going, keep it running in spite of insane and inane government regulations then you come along and tell me how to run it?
Nope. I'm saying I want to see more cooperatives in our economy and fewer McDonalds and Walmarts.
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Nope. I'm saying I want to see more cooperatives in our economy and fewer McDonalds and Walmarts.
So, get off your ass, find 22,000 workers, several billion dollars and start a car manufacturing business where the workers get a living wage and decide everything......even the color as long as it's red, I guess, huh.
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Nope. I'm saying I want to see more cooperatives in our economy and fewer McDonalds and Walmarts.
What kind of cooperatives? How on earth are you going to get people to work in a cooperative? Even William Bradford of the Mayflower failed at trying that;
'"The experience that we had in this common course and condition tried sundry years... that by taking away property, and bringing community into a common wealth, would make them happy and flourishing -- as if they were wiser than God. ... For this community [so far as it was] was found to breed much confusion and discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort. For young men that were most able and fit for labor and service did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children without any recompense.'"
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Nope. I'm saying I want to see more cooperatives in our economy and fewer McDonalds and Walmarts.
Then please start one, I urge you to do it, it will be the best economic lesson you could possibly get.
I wish in one hand and shit in the other and wait to see which one fills up first.
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Hi oFrosty,
So you know where I'm coming from here are a few facts about me;
I was raised by a father who belonged to the United Steelworkers Union and voted democrat his entire life.
He was always ranting against Republicans and how they were against the "worker". When I was of age I registered and voted democrat for a few years. I became very interested in politics and researched both parties. I became a Republican and even ran for office. At this time I consider myself a "conservative" rather than a Republican because even they have become part of the problem.
You oFrosty, remind me of my brother in law who was the only one of my wifes four brothers to be able to go to college. My wife and her other brothers all started their own business. The one who went to college now does manual labor jobs, and asks for money from the others siblings.
To explore for the sake of wonder, curiosity, personal-growth, and passion. I'm into physics and political economy.
I don't care about being hirable – working for someone is not the only way to contribute to society. I care about being a better human.
After college, I want to start an organization to help start more self-reliant, cooperative communities. But that dream's still evolving.
This is EXACTLY what my brother in law who went to college was about. He was a member of a commune for a period of time and followed one of those "off the wall" religions from the far east. And did I mention he asks for money from the rest of the family ?
Welcome BTW.
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Then please start one, I urge you to do it, it will be the best economic lesson you could possibly get.
You should check out the Evergreen Cooperatives in Cleveland.
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You should check out the Evergreen Cooperatives in Cleveland.
I took your advice and did.
The Evergreen Cooperatives of Cleveland, Ohio are pioneering innovative models of job creation, wealth building, and sustainability. Evergreen’s employee-owned, for-profit companies are based locally and hire locally. They create meaningful green jobs and keep precious financial resources within the Greater University Circle neighborhoods. Worker-owners at Evergreen earn a living wage and build equity in the firms as owners of the business.
Guess what, it's for profit, ain't that odd?
You start a business and make money, that's the way it's supposed to work. You want to start a business making solar panels? Good for you, go make it work.
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I took your advice and did.
Guess what, it's for profit, ain't that odd?
You start a business and make money, that's the way it's supposed to work. You want to start a business making solar panels? Good for you, go make it work.
Yeah! It's for-profit. Cooperatives can be for-profit. The point is that they are employee owned and democratically managed.
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Yeah! It's for-profit. Cooperatives can be for-profit. The point is that they are employee owned and democratically managed.
And for profit. Guess what happens if they don't make a profit no matter how idealistic it might be?
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And for profit. Guess what happens if they don't make a profit no matter how idealistic it might be?
What are the stats on that? Something like only one in ten new ventures make it, or at least suffer several years of losses before making a profit.
Hope he brings a lot of capital into this project to get it off the ground.
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Yeah! It's for-profit. Cooperatives can be for-profit. The point is that they are employee owned and democratically managed.
...and what does that bring to the table? Employee ownership, in and of itself, is nothing. Is Evergreen Cooperatives of Cleveland a firm example of one? Or is it the management, the leadership, visions and ideas, that brings success however the means?
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And for profit. Guess what happens if they don't make a profit no matter how idealistic it might be?
The same thing that companies do when they fail — adapt, be creative.
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The same thing that companies do when they fail — adapt, be creative.
Really?
Now your not being serious.
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Yeah! It's for-profit. Cooperatives can be for-profit. The point is that they are employee owned and democratically managed.
And guess what...
...whatever success or failure they endure will be provided by a FREE MARKET SYSTEM THAT ENCOURAGES COMPETITION.
Communists, however, have cracked 100 million eggs without cooking 1 ******* omelet.
Our system has room for you dumbass ideas. If they work, you'll be rewarded. If they fail it will be for no reason except your idea wasn't the best.
Communism would criminalize, imprison and more than likely kill everyone that refused to play along. It stifles competition with a gun. It murders everyone more successful than it.
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And guess what...
...whatever success or failure they endure will be provided by a FREE MARKET SYSTEM THAT ENCOURAGES COMPETITION.
Communists, however, have cracked 100 million eggs without cooking 1 ******* omelet.
Our system has room for you dumbass ideas. If they work, you'll be rewarded. If they fail it will be for no reason except your idea wasn't the best.
Communism would criminalize, imprison and more than likely kill everyone that refused to play along. It stifles competition with a gun. It murders everyone more successful than it.
After it has taken the workers gun.
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To explore for the sake of wonder, curiosity, personal-growth, and passion. I'm into physics and political economy.
I don't care about being hirable – working for someone is not the only way to contribute to society. I care about being a better human.
After college, I want to start an organization to help start more self-reliant, cooperative communities. But that dream's still evolving.
Here's a hint kid, going to school to make yourself a better person doesn't pay the bills. You need to care about being "hirable" if you want to make it in this world.
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How much does it cost to "make yourself a better person" when they charge you by the credit hour?
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How much does it cost to "make yourself a better person" when they charge you by the credit hour?
When you get a degree in things that interest you but won't support you and then you default on the loans, it doesn't cost you anything.
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To explore for the sake of wonder, curiosity, personal-growth, and passion. I'm into physics and political economy.
I don't care about being hirable – working for someone is not the only way to contribute to society. I care about being a better human.
After college, I want to start an organization to help start more self-reliant, cooperative communities. But that dream's still evolving.
So you're about 20? 21? You sound like my oldest son. He's finding out the hard way the world doesn't work the way his profs tell him it does! Its ok to have the world view you have at your age. I think we all did. The problem is reality sets in by 30! I wish you luck because you sound like a smart kid. Just a bit naive i'm afraid. It's startling to me that you believe a college education=being a "better" person. Your charactor is something you are supposed to learn at home or through your faith if you have one.
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So you're about 20? 21? You sound like my oldest son. He's finding out the hard way the world doesn't work the way his profs tell him it does! Its ok to have the world view you have at your age. I think we all did. The problem is reality sets in by 30!
Exactly what my stepson, pushing 30, is right up against.
This "democratically managed" company/whatever piqued my curiosity. (I don't know if Frosty's coming back). What does that look like? Can everybody vote on the accounting treatment of a transaction, and the majority votes to book an unethical item? Everybody votes on design decisions, while the engineers cringe at the stupidity of it all? The balance sheet goes to hell and nobody notices because the most charasmatic member got voted CFO? Everyone votes to knock off on Fridays at approximatly Thursday lunchtime?
Oy.
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Exactly what my stepson, pushing 30, is right up against.
This "democratically managed" company/whatever piqued my curiosity. (I don't know if Frosty's coming back). What does that look like? Can everybody vote on the accounting treatment of a transaction, and the majority votes to book an unethical item? Everybody votes on design decisions, while the engineers cringe at the stupidity of it all? The balance sheet goes to hell and nobody notices because the most charasmatic member got voted CFO? Everyone votes to knock off on Fridays at approximatly Thursday lunchtime?
Oy.
Who knew we were talking to Dennis, the Anarcho-Syndicalist Peasant?
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKIWjnEPNY[/youtube]
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Who knew we were talking to Dennis, the Anarcho-Syndicalist Peasant?
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKIWjnEPNY[/youtube]
:lmao:
God I love that movie! "How do you know he was a king?" "He doesn't have shit all over him!" :lmao:
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Nope. I'm saying I want to see more cooperatives in our economy and fewer McDonalds and Walmarts.
Great. Just don't stop people who want WalMart and McDonalds.
Because sound an awful lot like that Noodles socialist, Rob Lewis of Madison WI who whined that Noodles & Co didn't let the 'workers' cook what they wanted.
Socialism makes people stupid. Really stupid. And then either the mass murdered or the mass murderers.
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I don't believe the capitalist mode of production is the ultimate answer to how we organize our economy. I want to see the same democratization of government take place in workplaces.
See ya on the battlefield, you Commie prick.
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Why are you folks bothering with this troll?
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Why are you folks bothering with this troll?
Boredom?
I was just thinking this guy, with a screen name like "ofrosty" is really a vanilla milk shake that's come in from the cold. He went away after he melted to a sugary goo.
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Why are you folks bothering with this troll?
Because I can't go on their websites to challenge them since I get the ban hammer.
When they come here I sometimes find it hard to resist.
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Why are you folks bothering with this troll?
Maybe he'll learn something?
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(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag72/conscave/never_go_full_retard1_zpsae479ab0.jpg)
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I assume the McDonald's worker is a human being with dreams beyond working McDonalds, and under the current political-economic system, many of those workers don't have a shot at achieving those dreams. They have to work much harder to climb the ladder, and the higher up you get, the easier it is to climb up even higher.
I don't believe the capitalist mode of production is the ultimate answer to how we organize our economy. I want to see the same democratization of government take place in workplaces.
I started off in high school working in fast food, now I work in a corporate atmosphere, making a comfortable living. That hard work you speak against made me hungry to succeed. Making someone comfortable does more to ensure their failure than it does to ensure their success. FYI the ladder is harder to climb closer to the top than it is closer to the bottom. The jobs become more competitive. it's fairly easy to go from a $20,000 a year job to a $40,000 a year job.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p31-xQ2Rrz4&feature=share&list=PL63D8A8BDB7705AA0
That democratization of government that you're so taken with is so marred down with bureaucracy and regulation that it's ineffective. In a corporation or organization there has to be a deciding factor. If anything our government should be proof of that. There will come a point that there will be indecision, There has to be a decision maker or else you have a stale mate and you've failed.
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I don't care about being hirable – working for someone is not the only way to contribute to society. I care about being a better human.
After college, I want to start an organization to help start more self-reliant, cooperative communities. But that dream's still evolving.
:lol:
Barry Obama? Is that you?
:rotf:
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How in the EFF did I miss this thread ? It's an instant CC epic classic. And I won't use the excuse that I was out of the country.