Author Topic: Translation Errors in Scripture  (Read 49658 times)

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Offline rich_t

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2010, 03:38:57 PM »
It is indeed an interesting discussion.

But at the end of the day, I doubt that God really cares which day of the week one goes to church to worship.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Carl

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2010, 04:13:51 PM »
For the most part no, which reverts our thoughts to the Christian belief that the Canon is the inspired Word of God...........however, MSB and USA4ME are discussing what might be a misconception on which actual day of the week the "Sabbath" is supposed to fall, as there is a difference between the interpretation of Jewish Law, and how New Testament Christians view it........

It is an interesting discussion.......

doc

Again I have not read back so am perhaps stupidly (no comments please) going to weigh in on that.
In the Old Testament what we now recognize as Saturday would have been the Sabbath.
After Christ in the New Covenant that was done away and Sunday has become traditionally  the day to recognize His Lordship and His resurrection which was the day after.

Once more from Bible Questions Answered by William Pettingill.

In considering the problem here presented,let us begin with a word touching the principle of the "norm,"as mentioned by the questioner.
In selecting a passage as the norm for any certain doctrine rather than an isolated verse which might be construed in more than one way if considered apart from its text and with out regard to the teaching of the Scripture elsewhere.
Now the time of the arrival of the women at the tomb,and other facts relating to our Lord`s resurrection,are clearly set forth in then other Gospels.
Therefore we should use the other Gospels as the norm passages rather then Matthew 28:1 whose exact meaning does not appear on the surface.

The solution of the problem we are discussing lies in a correct understanding of the Greek adverb opse,which is translated "in the end of".
Opse has two meanings,both of which are found in the Greek classics.
One meaning is "late" and the other is "after a long time" or "long after".
Godet cites classic passages in which opse means "after," as.for example,"after the Trojan war,""the mysteries being over,"etc.

Whenever we come upon a word having two meanings,the context must determine which meaning is the correct one.
In this instance the verb translated "began to dawn"decides the question for us.
The verb comes from the root meaning of "light".
It is in the form of a present participle in the locative case,and the locative case speaks of "time within which."
Thus the women arrived at the sepulchre during the time when it was growing light.
This decides which of the two meanings  to opse should be chosen.
In this passage it means "after." Thayers Lexicon translates "the sabbath having just past,after the sabbath,"that is,"at the dawn of the first day of the week,"and adds,"an interpretation absolutely demanded by the added specification of"the participle mentioned above.




Offline Carl

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2010, 04:15:01 PM »
It is indeed an interesting discussion.

But at the end of the day, I doubt that God really cares which day of the week one goes to church to worship.



Indeed and one of the reasons I no longer do that is because of folks that were Christian on Sunday and not the rest of the week.

Offline rich_t

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2010, 04:16:18 PM »
Quote
Again I have not read back so am perhaps stupidly (no comments please) going to weigh in on that.
In the Old Testament what we now recognize as Saturday would have been the Sabbath.
After Christ in the new covenant that was done away and Sunday has become traditionally  the day to recognize His Lordship and His resurrection which was the day after.

Once again...


But at the end of the day, I doubt that God really cares which day of the week one goes to church to worship.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Carl

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2010, 05:26:20 PM »
Once again...


But at the end of the day, I doubt that God really cares which day of the week one goes to church to worship.



No argument from me on that issue,just was attempting an explanation for the Saturday/Sunday schism.

A bit of background,not that anyone cares...

The church I belonged to had a Sunday morning Bible school,the morning service,a Sunday evening one and then a mid week.
There were several folks there that if you missed any one of the above would look down on you and openly suggest that you were not a good Christian for it.
Their own lives had plenty of flaws and after a friend was crapped on by them I had enough and left...not quietly either.
A lot of hurt on all sides and no regrets for the stand I took against things.
Perhaps today I would have done it differently with so much more life lived but that is a guess.
A digression but maybe why to this day I take such offense to a suggestion I am not a true conservative because I recognize that it isn`t always going to be what I wish as far as politics but will take what I can get.
Anyways...

It is now 22 years later and the Sunday night service is gone due to lack of attendance from the rift (now that is okay I guess) and no idea about the mid week one.
I still know what I believe regarding Jesus sacrificing Himself on the cross to pay the price for our sins and while my life is in many ways not a picture perfect Christian one I will never go back on that.

Offline rich_t

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2010, 05:28:24 PM »
We all fall short of the perfection of Christ.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #81 on: March 27, 2010, 06:34:08 PM »
Again I have not read back so am perhaps stupidly (no comments please) going to weigh in on that.
In the Old Testament what we now recognize as Saturday would have been the Sabbath.
After Christ in the New Covenant that was done away and Sunday has become traditionally  the day to recognize His Lordship and His resurrection which was the day after.

Once more from Bible Questions Answered by William Pettingill...

In considering the problem here presented,let us begin with a word touching the principle of the "norm,"as mentioned by the questioner.
In selecting a passage as the norm for any certain doctrine rather than an isolated verse which might be construed in more than one way if considered apart from its text and with out regard to the teaching of the Scripture elsewhere.
Now the time of the arrival of the women at the tomb,and other facts relating to our Lord`s resurrection,are clearly set forth in then other Gospels.
Therefore we should use the other Gospels as the norm passages rather then Matthew 28:1 whose exact meaning does not appear on the surface.

The solution of the problem we are discussing lies in a correct understanding of the Greek adverb opse,which is translated "in the end of".
Opse has two meanings,both of which are found in the Greek classics.
One meaning is "late" and the other is "after a long time" or "long after".
Godet cites classic passages in which opse means "after," as.for example,"after the Trojan war,""the mysteries being over,"etc.

Whenever we come upon a word having two meanings,the context must determine which meaning is the correct one.
In this instance the verb translated "began to dawn"decides the question for us.
The verb comes from the root meaning of "light".
It is in the form of a present participle in the locative case,and the locative case speaks of "time within which."
Thus the women arrived at the sepulchre during the time when it was growing light.
This decides which of the two meanings  to opse should be chosen.
In this passage it means "after." Thayers Lexicon translates "the sabbath having just past,after the sabbath,"that is,"at the dawn of the first day of the week,"and adds,"an interpretation absolutely demanded by the added specification of"the participle mentioned above.



EnglishStrong's No.GreekTransliteration
In  the  endg1161δέde
g3796ὀψέopse
of the sabbath,g4521σάββατονsabbaton
as it began to dawng2020ἐπιφώσκωepiphōskō
towardg1519εἰςeis
the firstg3391μίαmia
of the sabbathg4521σάββατονsabbaton
cameg2064ἔρχομαιerchomai
Maryg3137ΜαρίαMaria
Magdaleneg3094ΜαγδαληνήMagdalēnē
andg2532καίkai
the otherg243ἄλλος allos
Maryg3137ΜαρίαMaria
to seeg2334θεωρέωtheōreō
the sepulchre.g5028τάφοςtaphos
   

As you can see the word Sabbath appears TWICE in this passage. While the adverb "opse" may modify the end of the first Sabbath mentioned in the text a second Sabbath is beginning.

It is impossible to reasonably explain 2 Sabbaths occurring in such a short span of time without understanding the liturgical calendar.


Your argument is not with me.  I'm not a Greek scholar, and I'm certainly not the Greek scholars who translated the Greek words into "upon the first day of the week."  I'm just pointing out that there seemingly aren't any Greek scholars disputing them, which tells me they got it right.  You are not a Greek scholar, so your intrepretation is not backed by credentials.  You need to take this up with the Greek scholars with which you disagree.  I can't answer for them.

Would these be the same scholars who turned Pesach into Easter?

Those accredited scholars?

Methinks if I were to present any source it would only be dismissed as "not accredited [by those who already agree with me]."

Quote
I don't know how else to explain it.


Would that you had the courtesy to even try.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline rich_t

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #82 on: March 27, 2010, 07:13:17 PM »
I see that the picking of nits is alive and well.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #83 on: March 27, 2010, 07:17:16 PM »
Would that you had the courtesy to even try.

I would if I could, but I'm not a Greek scholar.  I don't read Greek, I don't speak Greek, and I can't translate Greek into English.  How hard is this to understand?  You're not a Greek scholar either.  Neither of us know the rules of the language, how sentences are constructed and composed, how to intrepret based upon these things, etc...  But those who can, those scholars who examined the translation for the writers of the commentaries, from all accounts I have read thus far, did not dispute the translation as being inaccurate.  I can't find a single instance where any Greek scholar has said the translation is inaccurate.  Now, if you want to call all these scholars "fools agreeing," that's up to you.

The Greek words in Act 20:7 have been translated "upon the first day of the week."  If you don't believe that is an accurate translation, you need to talk to Greek scholars that can explain how the Greek words in Acts 20:7 were translated to "upon the first day of the week."  Certainly there's a university in your area, or a scholar you can find to write and inquire as to why it was translated that way.  I have no doubt Greek scholars can give you the answers you seek.  But asking me to explain how they translated these Greek words into the phrase that is  consistently used won't get you anywhere because I'm not a Greek scholar.  Quit asking me.  You've got to ask a scholar who can translate Greek.

.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 07:20:11 PM by USA4ME »
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #84 on: March 27, 2010, 07:19:03 PM »
I see that the picking of nits is alive and well.

Well it is a highly technical area, particularly when dealing with dead languages, whose subtle transliterations do not easily relate to English.....

Greek is relatively simple compared to Aramaic, and even (ancient) Hebrew, due to the fact that there so few intact original texts to actually study....

doc
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #85 on: March 27, 2010, 07:25:22 PM »
Well it is a highly technical area, particularly when dealing with dead languages, whose subtle transliterations do not easily relate to English.....

Greek is relatively simple compared to Aramaic, and even (ancient) Hebrew, due to the fact that there so few intact original texts to actually study....

doc

Damn it Doc, I know that.

But it can get a bit tiresome to see the same thing done over and over and over.

Carl has admitted that he isn't a Greek scholar, yet Snuggles keeps posting as if he were.

Spinning of wheels period.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #86 on: March 27, 2010, 07:26:36 PM »
I would if I could, but I'm not a Greek scholar.  I don't read Greek, I don't speak Greek, and I can't translate Greek into English.  How hard is this to understand?  You're not a Greek scholar either.  Neither of us know the rules of the language, how sentences are constructed and composed, how to intrepret based upon these things, etc...  But those who can, those scholars who examined the translation for the writers of the commentaries, from all accounts I have read thus far, did not dispute the translation as being inaccurate.  I can't find a single instance where any Greek scholar has said the translation is inaccurate.  Now, if you want to call all these scholars "fools agreeing," that's up to you.

The Greek words in Act 20:7 have been translated "upon the first day of the week."  If you don't believe that is an accurate translation, you need to talk to Greek scholars that can explain how the Greek words in Acts 20:7 were translated to "upon the first day of the week."  Certainly there's a university in your area, or a scholar you can find to write and inquire as to why it was translated that way.  I have no doubt Greek scholars can give you the answers you seek.  But asking me to explain how they translated these Greek words into the phrase that is  consistently used won't get you anywhere because I'm not a Greek scholar.  Quit asking me.  You've got to ask a scholar who can translate Greek.

.

Excuse the intrusion, but I see a "forest and trees" situation......perhaps it would be helpful to simply examine the paradox in the passage, setting aside the linguistic minutia for a moment......

The question becomes......under what circumstances would two "Sabbaths" occur back to back, as the verse implies?

Carry on....

doc
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #87 on: March 27, 2010, 07:32:28 PM »
Excuse the intrusion, but I see a "forest and trees" situation......perhaps it would be helpful to simply examine the paradox in the passage, setting aside the linguistic minutia for a moment......

The question becomes......under what circumstances would two "Sabbaths" occur back to back, as the verse implies?

Carry on....

doc

A better question might be.. "what real difference" does it make to God?

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #88 on: March 27, 2010, 07:37:18 PM »
I see that the picking of nits is alive and well.
Imagine a liberal trying to argue with you that the RKBA did not apply to private citizens but only state-founded militias.

Something tells me you would be picking every nit-worthy word, clause and punctuation mark.

 :-)


Well it is a highly technical area, particularly when dealing with dead languages, whose subtle transliterations do not easily relate to English.....

Greek is relatively simple compared to Aramaic, and even (ancient) Hebrew, due to the fact that there so few intact original texts to actually study....

doc
There have been authors such as Alfred Edersheim, E W Bullinger and a small herd of modern authors such as David Stern who have contributed. I don't know if they are on the approved list but they are there.

Whether or not anyone gives ear to them makes no difference to me but something about looking at the same word and ascribing contradictory definitions to it strikes me as illogical at best and disingenuous at worst.

A better question might be.. "what real difference" does it make to God?

If God instituted something would it be pointless or would it be meant to teach and/or edify and/or protect?
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline rich_t

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #89 on: March 27, 2010, 07:41:08 PM »
Imagine a liberal trying to argue with you that the RKBA did not apply to private citizens but only state-founded militias.

Something tells me you would be picking every nit-worthy word, clause and punctuation mark.

 :-)


Oy Vey!
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2010, 07:42:26 PM »
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline rich_t

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #91 on: March 27, 2010, 07:44:13 PM »
Imagine a liberal trying to argue with you that the RKBA did not apply to private citizens but only state-founded militias.

Something tells me you would be picking every nit-worthy word, clause and punctuation mark.

 :-)

There have been authors such as Alfred Edersheim, E W Bullinger and a small herd of modern authors such as David Stern who have contributed. I don't know if they are on the approved list but they are there.

Whether or not anyone gives ear to them makes no difference to me but something about looking at the same word and ascribing contradictory definitions to it strikes me as illogical at best and disingenuous at worst.

If God instituted something would it be pointless or would it be meant to teach and/or edify and/or protect?

I do believe you are now arguing for the mere sake of arguing.

But to each their own.

I've done it too.  I certainly don't condemn you for it.  But I know it for what it is.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline rich_t

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #92 on: March 27, 2010, 07:45:34 PM »
Doc,

I apologize for side tracking your board.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Doc

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #93 on: March 27, 2010, 07:55:05 PM »
A better question might be.. "what real difference" does it make to God?



Back at the dim beginnings of this discussion, the question arose.....Does the Mosaic Covenant (Old Testament Law) survive the Resurrection of Christ, and the :"New Covenant"......based on at least some interpretation of passages in the New Testament, there is evidence that it did, if perhaps only in part.......that debate has funneled down to examples of where the believers of the Mosaic Covenant (the Jews, including the Apostles), and the New Covenant believers differ.....one of these is examples is the establishment of the "day" on which the Sabbath falls in the week......ergo:

Under Hebrew Law the Sabbath (Shabot) begins at sunset on Friday, and extends to sunset on Saturday.....the Christian Sabbath is celebrated on Sunday......

Where the passage MSB cites in his translation matrix becomes interesting is.....that it describes what (and when) the two Marys went to the tomb of Christ after the Crucifixion......the paradox "suggests" that the death and Resurrection (if this translation is to be believed) somehow "changed" the celebration of the Sabbath to coincide with the Resurrection, abandoning the Old Covenant......or at least the portion of it that establishes the Sabbath in the liturgical calendar....

And there IS the possibility that I don't have a clue.....

doc
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 08:02:02 PM by TVDOC »

Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #94 on: March 27, 2010, 07:58:28 PM »
Excuse the intrusion, but I see a "forest and trees" situation......perhaps it would be helpful to simply examine the paradox in the passage, setting aside the linguistic minutia for a moment......

The question becomes......under what circumstances would two "Sabbaths" occur back to back, as the verse implies?

Carry on....

doc

I believe that can be answered when one comes to understand why the Greek in Act 20:7 is tranlated "upon the first day of the week."  It might very well be that some are seeing an implication there that doesn't really exist, or that there is one there and others are missing it.  But every commentary and reference book I've looked at today never views the translation as anything other than accurate.  Given and stated in the preface that these commentaries are reviewed by panels of Greek scholars to catch any inaccuracies (which makes sense, otherwise the commentaries would come into question as to their accuracy), I haven't any reason to believe the phrase is anything but accurately translated "upon the first day of the week."  I trust that a panel of Greek scholars peer reviewed each other to insure accuracy, and I trust that had they made a mistake, some other Greek scholar(s) along the line would have pointed out their error(s).  So far, can't find where that ever happened.

SB is seeing a conflict.  That's cool, more power to him.  But I can't answer the questions he's asking because I don't read, write, or translate Greek.  He's got to get with an expert who can explain the where's and why's, and I hope he does.

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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #95 on: March 27, 2010, 08:13:43 PM »
I do believe you are now arguing for the mere sake of arguing.

But to each their own.

I've done it too.  I certainly don't condemn you for it.  But I know it for what it is.
Not for the sake of arguing but because it has been my experience many people claim to want to know for the sake of knowledge.

OK fine. USA4ME has implied such things as well. Yet, when it comes down to it anything that upsets the apple cart of received tradition will be dismissed without comment.

When this conversation first started I said tradition could be stultifying...but it also served as a bulwark of bad doctrine. The Reformation gained strength under the cry of sola scritptura, "by scripture alone," because they believed the papacy had infected the gospel with unfounded tradition. [No offense to Catholics, I'm just reciting history, not a personal opinion.]

Sounds good...but in time the decentralization of the protestant sects lead to some fairly heinous doctrines and in turn it was the older churches that best guarded against "heresy". I noted the "name it and claim it" movement c. 1995 as the most recent and egregious manifestation of making-it-up-as-you-go-along. Those idiots cited plenty of scripture and I'm sure a few had degrees...but they were still idiots at best, hucksters most likely.

As Doc noted, there is a *seeming* paradox. Traditional scholarship doesn't satisfy because--perchance--the "traditional" interpretation neglects the real tradition behind the passage. If I claim to be a constitutionalist I must accept the COTUS, all of it, history included, otherwise my claim has no merit.

Admittedly, I'm not a christian but I tore mercilessly into TNO and wilbur about their atheistic myths because those myths were inconsistent with what they claimed to be. I do not like being fed bullshit even if the bullshitter cannot smell his own crap.

BTW - I like Christians better than the TNO types because Christians do have scriptures. Christians have an objective standard that can be tested. People like TNO can make shit up as they go along and change it at whim...and he did. In this regard religion is far more substantive than most atheist philosophies.


Back at the dim beginnings of this discussion, the question arose.....Does the Mosaic Covenant (Old Testament Law) survive the Resurrection of Christ, and the :"New Covenant"......based on at least some interpretation of passages in the New Testament, there is evidence that it did, if perhaps only in part.......that debate has funneled down to examples of where the believers of the Mosaic Covenant (the Jews, including the Apostles), and the New Covenant believers differ.....one of these is examples is the establishment of the "day" on which the Sabbath falls in the week......ergo:

Under Hebrew Law the Sabbath (Shabot) begins at sunset on Friday, and extends to sunset on Saturday.....the Christian Sabbath is celebrated on Sunday......

Where the passage MSB cites in his translation matrix becomes interesting is.....that it describes what (and when) the two Marys went to the tomb of Christ after the Crucifixion......the paradox "suggests" that the death and Resurrection (if this translation is to be believed) somehow "changed" the celebration of the Sabbath to coincide with the Resurrection, abandoning the Old Covenant......or at least the portion of it that establishes the Sabbath in the liturgical calendar....

And there IS the possibility that I don't have a clue.....

doc
The Greek word for the Mosaic law is "nomos." A survey of its every occurrence would be...intriguing.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2010, 08:29:29 PM »
The Greek word for the Mosaic law is "nomos." A survey of its every occurrence would be...intriguing.

Would you perhaps care to embark on that mission?

doc
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #97 on: March 27, 2010, 08:47:24 PM »
Would you perhaps care to embark on that mission?

doc
With this crew?!?!?

  :bolt:

Besides, there are plenty of better qualified and more "spiritually attuned" individuals than I. It's been more than a decade since I pursued any of this. The names I listed a few posts ago were those I could remember off the top of my fuzzy skull. Those are a good start. Otherwise I have to dig deep into untold numbers of boxes of books long ago entombed beneath the stairs.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2010, 09:06:32 PM »
With this crew?!?!?

  :bolt:

Besides, there are plenty of better qualified and more "spiritually attuned" individuals than I. It's been more than a decade since I pursued any of this. The names I listed a few posts ago were those I could remember off the top of my fuzzy skull. Those are a good start. Otherwise I have to dig deep into untold numbers of boxes of books long ago entombed beneath the stairs.

Yeah....I see what you mean....

doc
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Offline Doc

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #99 on: March 27, 2010, 10:14:19 PM »
I'm not seeing the difficulty.  It says "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."  It doesn't say it's impossible for it to take place.

This is simple an illustration by Jesus to make a point.  Rich people, in general, tend to put their trust in riches rather than God.  But that isn't always the case.  Two excellent examples of men who were wealthy in the Bible yet were obedient to God were Abraham and Job.


Very good USA, and may I add that it could very well be, and I think that it is the case, that here Jesus was using hyperbole as he did when he said, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father,and mother, and wife, and children, and brethern, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple".  Luke 14:26

The point Jesus was making is not that we hate family members, but that our love for him should be supreme and that that love of hiim would make our love for family, in comparison, seem like hate.  And as you probably know, hyperbole is extreme exaggeration to make a point.  We do that all the time when we say things like, "it's so cold out there I almost froze to death", and "that almost scared me to death".  And that is what Jesus is doing with the "camel through the eye of a needle".  



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Moderators note:  Edited to fix quote tags for clarity  (I think)

« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 01:08:27 PM by TVDOC »