Dummies Argue About Addressing Barbara Boxer

[Traveshamockery]

Apparently the dummies can't agree about this very important topic.  They then go on to discuss uppity women and the proper etiquette.  JDPriestly proclaims that referring to someone as "ma'm" is the same as referring to someone as "boy." 

MADem tries to school the dummies on proper etiquette and gets into it with merh and several others.  He's actually right for once. 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5880701


marylanddem  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) CFri Jun-19-09 09:43 AM
Original message
As a woman, I am very proud of Senator Boxer for calling that military guy on his "ma'am" bullshit. It has always made me cringe when hostile witnesses do that to women legislators & it's about time they got called on it.

Had he addressed the male senators as "sir," she probably would not have said anything. He was calling her Ma'am because he was thinking about her gender. He thereby drew attention to her gender. It showed his bias, his gender consciousness. He did not view her as a senator first and a woman second. She was right.

I am a little older than Boxer but in her general generation. We struggled for equality in ways that younger men and women cannot imagine. The struggle for racial equality was more dramatic, but the struggle for gender equality was incredibly lonely and painful. Every young woman who had a chance to get an equal education, to enter any career other than nursing, teaching or clerical (the only choices generally available for women when I was growing up) and enjoys the personal rewards, income and the prestige of her career should stop every day to thank the heroic women who sacrificed for the freedom and equality that women now enjoy.

And I thank Senator Boxer for standing up for women. The word ma'am should go be Gone with the Wind like Scarlet O'Hara and slavery. Ma'am is actually a southern expression that I had to use in school when I lived in the south. It is demeaning. Thank you Senator Boxer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHFPsiPYDA8&eurl=http%3A...

JDPriestly  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  JSat Jun-20-09 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #59
161. His use of "Ma'am" was a device to put her in her place. She was right to call him on it. As a woman who grew up before women's lib, I know whereof I speak. "Ma'am" should go the way of "boy" in so far as its use in addressing people. The officer would not have called an African-American senator "boy," not in his wildest dreams. But "Ma'am" is the female equivalent of "boy." It is a pejorative, limiting form of addressing a woman. It is no longer acceptable because of its cultural and historical implications.

JDPriestly  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Sat Jun-20-09 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #138
162. Senator Landrieu is a southerner and the term "Ma'am" is southernas is the term "boy" which is just as demeaning as "Ma'am."

[Lord Undies]

Once again, the weathervain setting atop the Little Goon Mental Barn points in the opposite direction of the wind.

[AprilRazz]

http://www.democraticunde...l&address=389x5880701


marylanddem  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) CFri Jun-19-09 09:43 AM
Original message
As a woman, I am very proud of Senator Boxer for calling that military guy on his "ma'am" bullshit. It has always made me cringe when hostile witnesses do that to women legislators & it's about time they got called on it.

Had he addressed the male senators as "sir," she probably would not have said anything. He was calling her Ma'am because he was thinking about her gender. He thereby drew attention to her gender. It showed his bias, his gender consciousness. He did not view her as a senator first and a woman second. She was right.

I am a little older than Boxer but in her general generation. We struggled for equality in ways that younger men and women cannot imagine. The struggle for racial equality was more dramatic, but the struggle for gender equality was incredibly lonely and painful. Every young woman who had a chance to get an equal education, to enter any career other than nursing, teaching or clerical (the only choices generally available for women when I was growing up) and enjoys the personal rewards, income and the prestige of her career should stop every day to thank the heroic women who sacrificed for the freedom and equality that women now enjoy.

And I thank Senator Boxer for standing up for women. The word ma'am should go be Gone with the Wind like Scarlet O'Hara and slavery. Ma'am is actually a southern expression that I had to use in school when I lived in the south. It is demeaning. Thank you Senator Boxer.
http://www.youtube.com/wa...PsiPYDA8&eurl=http%3A...

So you should be thanking all the military women. Oh and we use the term Ma'am and Sir. There are other words I would use to address you DUmmy.

[BadCat]

I think they should just call her "Babs".

That or "dumb bitch".

[ScubaGuy]

JDPriestly  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Sat Jun-20-09 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #138
162. Senator Landrieu is a southerner and the term "Ma'am" is southernas is the term "boy" which is just as demeaning as "Ma'am."

WTF?  Ma'am is demeaning? Damn there one hell of a lot of demeaning people here in NC.

[dandi]

It's still considered good manners where I come. Leave it to the DUmbasses to take something good and genteel and shit all over it.

[JohnnyReb]

It's still considered good manners where I come. Leave it to the DUmbasses to take something good and genteel and shit all over it.

Me too....and I just posted this in General Dicussion.

A long time ago, back in the heyday of womens lib, I once said yes ma'am to an equally aged Yankee female. She went all red faced on me explaining that where she came from that was considered a high form of disrespect to a woman. I tried to explain that where I was from, the deep south and where we were now standing, that we were taught to use yes ma'am as a sign of our deep respect for the female gender. She just went on and on with her rant until I told her, "OK. From now on when I answer in the affirmative, I'll just say 'uh huh bitch'". I don't know why but she liked that even less. You just can't satisfy dem dam wommins libbers. 

[Ralph Wiggum]

It's still considered good manners where I come. Leave it to the DUmbasses to take something good and genteel and shit all over it.

Exactly.

I spent enough time in Texas to learn that using the terms sir and ma'am are signs of respect, regardless of the age of the person you're talking to.

My parents have never spent much time in the South, but went down to the Masters this spring.  My mom commented that she had never been called ma'am so often in her life, but it certainly didn't bother her.  Just something she wasn't used to.

[miskie]

I couldnt help but to think of Al Bundy throughout this whole stupidity..

[Lord Undies]

Exactly.

I spent enough time in Texas to learn that using the terms sir and ma'am are signs of respect, regardless of the age of the person you're talking to.

My parents have never spent much time in the South, but went down to the Masters this spring.  My mom commented that she had never been called ma'am so often in her life, but it certainly didn't bother her.  Just something she wasn't used to.

It beats the shit out "Hey you!".

[Daisy]

My understanding of military protocal is for a soldier to address a superior as 'sir' or 'mam'.
The General was addresssing Barbara as his superior, which apparently she was/is too stupid to be aware of. So she dressed down and disrespected the General who fought and risked his life for her to be stupid and disrespect him publicly.

Dems hate the military.

[Chris_]

My understanding of military protocal is for a soldier to address a superior as 'sir' or 'mam'.
The General was addresssing Barbara as his superior, which apparently she was/is too stupid to be aware of. So she dressed down and disrespected the General who fought and risked his life for her to be stupid and disrespect him publicly.

Dems hate the military.

In another thread, someone pointed out the "Ranger" Tab on the General's uniform.

I daresay that this man has done more in the service of HIS country to get to where he is today, that Babs Boxer has done to get to where she is today.

[Karin]

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, what a huge bonfire.  Full of stubborn DUmpers refusing to yield ground to the obvious person in the correct, Modem.  At gradegov.com, where you can daily kick someone in the groin and tell them why, Boxer has accumulated 18 pages of hate mail so far.  Go and read, it's fun. 

[Traveshamockery]

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, what a huge bonfire.  Full of stubborn DUmpers refusing to yield ground to the obvious person in the correct, Modem.  At gradegov.com, where you can daily kick someone in the groin and tell them why, Boxer has accumulated 18 pages of hate mail so far.  Go and read, it's fun. 

I forgot about gradegov.com !  I'll have to go visit.  Thanks for the reminder. 

[franksolich]

I think they should just call her "Babs".

That or "dumb bitch".

Damn, you're good, sir.

Admirable.

[djones520]

Check this exchange out.  I'll give credit to Lager over at TOS for finding it.

kiranon (545 posts)        Fri Jun-19-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
118. As a former woman officer and member of a general's staff, you are wrong.
 There are very few women generals and this BG General from the Air Force which has a terrible problem with sexism was not used to saying "Ma'am" to anyone in the service. He was being disrespectful in an insiders kind of way. That said, I would have let it go and I would have called him Brigadier General every time I addressed him as a BG General is at the bottom of the barrel in terms of generals. But, I do not think Senator Boxer knew to do that but she knew she was being disrespected. Call me Senator was ok by me.

MADem  (1000+ posts)      Sat Jun-20-09 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #118
142. No I am not wrong. And there are not "very few women generals." 
 Let's highlight this comment of yours, because it is an incredible example of someone getting their facts ENTIRELY wrong:

...this BG General from the Air Force which has a terrible problem with sexism was not used to saying "Ma'am" to anyone in the service. He was being disrespectful in an insiders kind of way....

There are fifty eight female general and flag officers on active duty, and many more on the retired list. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for trying to BS this forum in that fashion.

If you were actually "a member of a general's staff" (which general, pray tell? General Nuisance? General Motors?) you'd know that. Further, the Women Flag and General's luncheons, which are a regular staple in DC, wouldn't be very well attended if there weren't any upper echelon women in the ranks, now, would they be?

Moreover, and here's where you outed yourself--the guy you are calling, without evidence, a sexist, wasn't an AIR FORCE officer--which makes your comments about your "staff experience" seem even more suspect, since you obviously cannot even recognize an ARMY uniform. If you are on any Flag or General staff, from junior enlisted driver to senior officer Chief of Staff, you'd damn well better be able to recognize the uniforms and ranks of ALL services.

BG Walsh is a member of the ARMY Corps of Engineers. ARMY--not Air Force. Didn't you watch the hearing? If you didn't, why are you shooting your mouth off like you know what you're talking about? If you had watched it, you'd KNOW that this man was ACOE, not USAF. Gee, and you "know" that Walsh is a sexist? Why don't you point to the section of the hearing (give us the hour and minute point in the link I provided in this thread) to show us where this "sexist" was anything but courteous? The man was entirely polite to everyone, male and female, on that committee. Boxer even acknowledged at the end of the guy's testimony that her frustration was with events that happened BEFORE this guy even reported to his command. Of course, if you watched the testimony, you'd know that and wouldn't have called him, wrongly, a sexist.

Take your shameless prevarications and just walk away. You have, with your own words, demonstrated that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about and no shame at all in putting forth bona fides that do not stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny. For this reason, I look askance at your insistence that you were ever commissioned or worked on a general staff--I do not find any of your statements or assertions of experience credible in the slightest. And that's YOUR fault, for making stuff up.

Here, a little light reading for you--shame on you for making false assertions about this man: http://www.mvd.usace.army.mil/mrc/about/bio.php?b=1 

Totally schooled.  But it gets better.

kiranon (545 posts)        Sat Jun-20-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #142
254. I heard it on the radio and yes what I said is true - a BG says "yes General" not "Ma'am."
 Cannot say where I was on the general's staff because I would be recognized and 58 isn't very many and I stand by my statement that this BG said didn't have much practice saying "Ma'am to any general." Note: The issue is not how many generals but how many outranked the BG which means how many women generals have 2 stars or more. That's the number that counts since he wouldn't be saying "Yes, Ma'am" to someone on the BG level. Since you know so much, you tell us. Some of the retired women generals spent a lot of time deciding what uniforms women in the military should wear and nothing more important than that. Some are very important but how many out rank this BG and work with him? I guess I got your dander up but except for the Air Force part (radio called him Air Force) I stand by my comments. I don't spend my days watching TV. Please look up how women have been harassed at the Air Force Academy if you want to see what sexism looks like. I was the SGS at at Unified Command and was awarded the Joint Service Commendation Medal. What do you have? 

MADem  (1000+ posts)      Sat Jun-20-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #254
292. Again, I do not believe anything you are saying. Environmental subcommittee meetings 
 are generally not "radio" fare.

And I worked for the SECDEF, I'm not "afraid" of being recognized, so that argument is crap. Like I said, I'd believe you if you told me you worked for General Motors and his Aide, Major Asshole.

You do know the Army now has a four star female general, don't you? No? Gee, thought you might be interested in that. Know who Claudia Kennedy is? No? Look her up.

Please. You're digging that hole at a brutal clip. That remark about female generals and the uniforms, too, is absolute horseshit and the biggest insult to military women I've heard in EONS. And if you were truly military, you'd know that.

Oh, I have a shitload of medals, and I could spend hours telling you how I got each and every one of them. I only wore my top three, because I found that sort of display ostentatious, I was secure in my abilities without a need to display my fruit salad, and they're stuffed in a drawer because the only reward I need is given to me on the first of the month, every month.

The Navy captain who was sent to investigate the excesses, both in terms of sexism and religious harassment at the USAF academy, is a friend of mine. Don't tell ME about EO issues in the military. I'm more familiar than you could ever be.

And your story is not believable. Not even slightly. Shame on you.

I don't believe you. I think you're making stuff up to bolster a lousy argument. 

kiranon (545 posts)        Sat Jun-20-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #292
315. Now I don't believe a word you say. Nice try.

MADem  (1000+ posts)      Sat Jun-20-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #315
322. Ah yes, the "I'm rubber, you're glue" argument. Thanks for proving my point! nt

[BlueStateSaint]

Tell ya what--I'd H5 MADem for that exchange.

[Eupher]

I didn't watch the entire hearing - just the few seconds where Babs got her panties in a wad and decided to flounce her "title" in front of the general like a little kid flounces his toy just before he takes it and goes home.

It looked to me like the the general simply reverted to common practice and decency when he, in an attempt to answer Babs' question, stammered a bit and called her "ma'am."

And when he was rudely interrupted by Queen Bee Babs, he immediately clammed up. That isn't the mark of an officer who was deliberately trying to provoke Queen Bee Babs.

Nope - he was simply there to do what was asked of him.

Anybody else see it differently? Again, I didn't watch the entire hearing.

[miskie]

I find it mildly amusing that someone called 'MADem' (sounds like madam) is arguing against Babs Boxer for refusing to be called Ma'am (short for Madam)

[Eupher]

I find it mildly amusing that someone called 'MADem' (sounds like madam) is arguing against Babs Boxer for refusing to be called Ma'am (short for Madam)

Precisely. I don't have a lot of experience with the DU thing, but methinks she's headed for a tombstone.

Folks like her don't last long there because they tell the truth and they don't pull punches.

[JohnnyReb]

Sortta like the John Kerry, "Do you know who I am?" thing, huh......hehehehehehe

Fat chance I'll ever meet Madam Boxer. But if I were to and she asks, "Do you know who I am?", should I say "Yes Ma'am" or "Who gives a shit, bitch". decisions-decisions.

 

[miskie]

At times I wonder if Boxer's power trip is because she is an early feminist, or because she could represent the Lollipop Guild just as easily as she does California...

[Eupher]

At times I wonder if Boxer's power trip is because she is an early feminist, or because she could represent the Lollipop Guild just as easily as she does California...

Or simply because she's an egoist who is drunk with power and intends to stay that way?

Occam's Razor.

[docstew]

All that discusion about how to address Babs and no one said with a titanium-head driver or to China... I'm disappointed.

[BlueStateSaint]

All that discusion about how to address Babs and no one said with a titanium-head driver or to China... I'm disappointed.

 

I feel shame . . .