Is secession even legal?

[Rebel]

Technically, that piece of property was only attacked after an officer of the government of the United States broke his word and occupied it.  He made he and his men a threat to commerce within the port of Charleston.

I see, once property is stolen it becomes the property of the thief, and the thief is therefore fully justified in firing the first shot to get the property that will become his under that rule, because after all the victim might fight back if he doesn't.  Not buying any today, thanks, but it's not really germane to the issue of whether secession is legal at all.

They were given an ample time to vacate, DT. Would the United States allow Russia to occupy Sandy Hook and the southern tip of Long Island?

[GOBUCKS]

It's legal for Texas.

It didn't work out too well for Texas the last time they tried to secede from the union. I think the civil war settled that question pretty clearly.

Yes, but all that happened before TomInTib. Remember, in case of insurrection, all he needs is a weapon he can trust, and some solid food.

[rich_t]

If secession is illegal then we might as well stop calling ourselves a f'n Union and drop the "United States" from America. 

MOST states entered into the Union voluntarily and all retained the right to leave it. Abraham Lincoln violated the oath of office he was sworn to uphold.

In more way than one!

[BlueStateSaint]

Technically, that piece of property was only attacked after an officer of the government of the United States broke his word and occupied it.  He made he and his men a threat to commerce within the port of Charleston.

I see, once property is stolen it becomes the property of the thief, and the thief is therefore fully justified in firing the first shot to get the property that will become his under that rule, because after all the victim might fight back if he doesn't.  Not buying any today, thanks, but it's not really germane to the issue of whether secession is legal at all.

They were given an ample time to vacate, DT. Would the United States allow Russia to occupy Sandy Hook and the southern tip of Long Island?

I, for one, would be all in favor of that . . .   It would clean up the mess there.

[Rebel]

It's legal for Texas.

It didn't work out too well for Texas the last time they tried to secede from the union. I think the civil war settled that question pretty clearly.

Yes, but all that happened before TomInTib. Remember, in case of insurrection, all he needs is a weapon he can trust, and some solid food.

...and a SecNav to almost shoot afterwards. 

[Vagabond]

Technically, that piece of property was only attacked after an officer of the government of the United States broke his word and occupied it.  He made he and his men a threat to commerce within the port of Charleston.

I see, once property is stolen it becomes the property of the thief, and the thief is therefore fully justified in firing the first shot to get the property that will become his under that rule, because after all the victim might fight back if he doesn't.  Not buying any today, thanks, but it's not really germane to the issue of whether secession is legal at all.

Not quite, it was unoccupied under the agreement between the Federal garrison and Representatives of the state of South Carolina.  It was to remain unoccupied until the government of South Carolina and the government of the United States came to an agreement on it.  Further, South Carolina was being very hospitable to the garrison troops and supplying them.  That was until the garrison commander, under the cover of darkness after midnight, moved his troops to occupy Fort Sumter.

Whether you believe in seccession or not, he did not act within his word.  Further, Lincoln was conducting a military resupply of that Fort.  It wasn't thievery, it was self defense.

[Chris_]

It's legal for Texas.

Old Wive's Tale -- it is not.

[Chris_]

If secession is illegal then we might as well stop calling ourselves a f'n Union and drop the "United States" from America.  ::)

MOST states entered into the Union voluntarily and all retained the right to leave it. Abraham Lincoln violated the oath of office he was sworn to uphold.

They gave up the right to secede when they entered.  Unless you can point to the exact verbiage where they retained that right (don't bother -- you can't).

[Chris_]

Interesting discussion, I am learning a lot. Thanks guys.  A bit off topic but, would it be possible to eject a state from the union?

I sure as hell hope so.  I could start with my stitch ripper, tearing out the stars for California and Massachutsetts right now.

You are the weakest links.  Good-bye.

No, in the Reconstruction many of the winning states (that would be the Northern Aggressors to you Southrons) called for the idea of "Jr. States" or outright annexation.  Lincoln, in his wisdom, said "No -- this was an internal conflict and it is over.  Head home boys."

Officially, there was no "Civil War."  There was a civil insurrection that was suppressed.

[Rebel]

If secession is illegal then we might as well stop calling ourselves a f'n Union and drop the "United States" from America. 

MOST states entered into the Union voluntarily and all retained the right to leave it. Abraham Lincoln violated the oath of office he was sworn to uphold.

They gave up the right to secede when they entered.  Unless you can point to the exact verbiage where they retained that right (don't bother -- you can't).

Show me where. Otherwise, you're full of shit.

As for Texas, like any other state, they do have the right to secede.


.....and if you think our forefathers, in their infinite wisdom, would enter into a union with NO means to get out, you're dumb as shit. To put it mildly.

[Chris_]

If secession is illegal then we might as well stop calling ourselves a f'n Union and drop the "United States" from America. 

MOST states entered into the Union voluntarily and all retained the right to leave it. Abraham Lincoln violated the oath of office he was sworn to uphold.

They gave up the right to secede when they entered.  Unless you can point to the exact verbiage where they retained that right (don't bother -- you can't).

Show me where. Otherwise, you're full of shit.

As for Texas, like any other state, they do have the right to secede.


.....and if you think our forefathers, in their wisdom, would enter into a union with NO means to get out, you're dumb as shit.

It doesn't work that way.  The States join the Union in perpetuity.  There is no "we reserve the right to leave" clause in any document wherein the States joined the Union.  And that would be nonsensical (dumb as shit) -- what would be the point?  That would be a confederation, not a union?

Like I said -- please provide a link where any State reserved the right to secede?

Also, please explain Texas v White.

This is your forum, but I won't be bullied.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

If secession were legal DUmmies could claim themselves duly disaffected by the political process and secede and demand the federal government surrender all assets within their territory.

I know that sounds tempting but then so would the Ronulans, the illegal immigrants and any other faction that could conjure 51% of its local vote.

Who here would surrender the naval base in San Francisco to the local cretins or the nuke missile silos in the midwest?

It's that very same factionalism the federalists warned against leading us away from the AoC to our current Constitution.

[Chris_]

As for Texas, like any other state, they do have the right to secede.

The Urban Myth of which I refer is that The Republic of Texas DID reserve the right to secede if they didn't like being part of the USA.  There is no such reservation.

[Chris_]

If secession were legal DUmmies could claim themselves duly disaffected by the political process and secede and demand the federal government surrender all assets within their territory.

I know that sounds tempting but then so would the Ronulans, the illegal immigrants and any other faction that could conjure 51% of its local vote.

Who here would surrender the naval base in San Francisco to the local cretins or the nuke missile silos in the midwest?

It's that very same factionalism the federalists warned against leading us away from the AoC to our current Constitution.

Again, I reference Texas v White.

[Rebel]

It doesn't work that way.  The States join the Union in perpetuity.  There is no "we reserve the right to leave" clause in any document wherein the States joined the Union.  And that would be nonsensical (dumb as shit) -- what would be the point?  That would be a confederation, not a union?

Like I said -- please provide a link where any State reserved the right to secede?

Also, please explain Texas v White.

This is your forum, but I won't be bullied.

D6 DID provide you a link...to the US Constitution. Again, you're wrong. There is no way in HELL our forefathers would have entered into a union without the ability to leave if it didn't serve the best interests of the state. Now, show me the link that shows we CAN'T leave.

If you think I'm "bullying" you, fine. I'm not doing it as an Admin. I'm doing it as Rebel. I'm aware of the appearance and trust me, I'm fine with the dual-role of being Admin/Poster. I've done it for many years at NCAABBS. It's why I knew I could be a better Admin than Gator. You wanna go after me in full strength, go right ahead. You won't be banned for it. Please don't EVER think that when debating me. If I ever do that I'll request to be removed.

Snugs, San Francisco is a city, not a state.

I would also like to add, I find it quite funny that northern and western conservatives bash southern conservatives. Sorry, but if it weren't for us, the entire COUNTRY would look like Detroit right now.  

[Chris_]

It doesn't work that way.  The States join the Union in perpetuity.  There is no "we reserve the right to leave" clause in any document wherein the States joined the Union.  And that would be nonsensical (dumb as shit) -- what would be the point?  That would be a confederation, not a union?

Like I said -- please provide a link where any State reserved the right to secede?

Also, please explain Texas v White.

This is your forum, but I won't be bullied.

D6 DID provide you a link...to the US Constitution. Again, you're wrong. There is no way in HELL our forefathers would have entered into a union without the ability to leave if it didn't serve the best interests of the state. Now, show me the link that shows we CAN'T leave.

If you think I'm "bullying" you, fine. I'm not doing it as an Admin. I'm doing it as Rebel. I'm aware of the appearance and trust me, I'm fine with the dual-role of being Admin/Poster. I've done it for many years at NCAABBS. It's why I knew I could be a better Admin than Gator. You wanna go after me in full strength, go right ahead. You won't be banned for it. Please don't EVER think that when debating me. If I ever do that I'll request to be removed.

Snugs, San Francisco is a city, not a state.

I would also like to add, I find it quite funny that northern and western conservatives bash southern conservatives. Sorry, but if it weren't for us, the entire COUNTRY would look like Detroit right now.  :whatever:

Nah, I guess I am paranoid.

Stand by for refutation ---

In the meantime, please address Texas v. White.

[rich_t]

It doesn't work that way.  The States join the Union in perpetuity.  There is no "we reserve the right to leave" clause in any document wherein the States joined the Union.  And that would be nonsensical (dumb as shit) -- what would be the point?  That would be a confederation, not a union?

Like I said -- please provide a link where any State reserved the right to secede?

Also, please explain Texas v White.

This is your forum, but I won't be bullied.

D6 DID provide you a link...to the US Constitution. Again, you're wrong. There is no way in HELL our forefathers would have entered into a union without the ability to leave if it didn't serve the best interests of the state. Now, show me the link that shows we CAN'T leave.

If you think I'm "bullying" you, fine. I'm not doing it as an Admin. I'm doing it as Rebel. I'm aware of the appearance and trust me, I'm fine with the dual-role of being Admin/Poster. I've done it for many years at NCAABBS. It's why I knew I could be a better Admin than Gator. You wanna go after me in full strength, go right ahead. You won't be banned for it. Please don't EVER think that when debating me. If I ever do that I'll request to be removed.

Snugs, San Francisco is a city, not a state.

I would also like to add, I find it quite funny that northern and western conservatives bash southern conservatives. Sorry, but if it weren't for us, the entire COUNTRY would look like Detroit right now.  

Not all of us northern conservatives do that Rebel.

[Rebel]

Nah, I guess I am paranoid.

Stand by for refutation ---

In the meantime, please address Texas v. White.

I am. It's a long brief. When it comes to legal documentation, I don't rely on Wiki.

As for you being paranoid, don't be. You could not even IMAGINE the trash that's said to me at ncaabbs. As an Admin, I could easily end their life at ncaabbs right there, but it's not right. Again, why I knew I could be a better Admin than Gator. Oh, and I don't have some cutesy dumbass saying like "Why are you so Damn stupid". 

[Chris_]

It doesn't work that way.  The States join the Union in perpetuity.  There is no "we reserve the right to leave" clause in any document wherein the States joined the Union.  And that would be nonsensical (dumb as shit) -- what would be the point?  That would be a confederation, not a union?

Like I said -- please provide a link where any State reserved the right to secede?

Also, please explain Texas v White.

This is your forum, but I won't be bullied.

D6 DID provide you a link...to the US Constitution. Again, you're wrong. There is no way in HELL our forefathers would have entered into a union without the ability to leave if it didn't serve the best interests of the state. Now, show me the link that shows we CAN'T leave.

If you think I'm "bullying" you, fine. I'm not doing it as an Admin. I'm doing it as Rebel. I'm aware of the appearance and trust me, I'm fine with the dual-role of being Admin/Poster. I've done it for many years at NCAABBS. It's why I knew I could be a better Admin than Gator. You wanna go after me in full strength, go right ahead. You won't be banned for it. Please don't EVER think that when debating me. If I ever do that I'll request to be removed.

Snugs, San Francisco is a city, not a state.

I would also like to add, I find it quite funny that northern and western conservatives bash southern conservatives. Sorry, but if it weren't for us, the entire COUNTRY would look like Detroit right now.  :whatever:

Not all of us northern conservatives do that Rebel.

FWIIW, this isn't "Bashing"  This is educating about real history, not the made-up history you Southrons tell each other to justify the insurrection.

Imagination isn't a Conservative value.

And also FWIIW, you won't find a more ardent supporter of the IX and X Amendments than I.  Not that they mean anything today, but they should.

[Chris_]

Nah, I guess I am paranoid.

Stand by for refutation ---

In the meantime, please address Texas v. White.

I am. It's a long brief. When it comes to legal documentation, I don't rely on Wiki.

As for you being paranoid, don't be. You could not even IMAGINE the trash that's said to me at ncaabbs. As an Admin, I could easily end their life at ncaabbs right there, but it's not right. Again, why I knew I could be a better Admin than Gator. Oh, and I don't have some cutesy dumbass saying like "Why are you so Damn stupid".  ::)

You are right -- that was stupid on my part. My profound apologies.

You can summarize Texas v. White (I can in one sentence) -- I will accept your citations.  Actually, this would be argumentation, not documentation per se.  IOW where is the error?

[Vagabond]

If secession is illegal then we might as well stop calling ourselves a f'n Union and drop the "United States" from America. 

MOST states entered into the Union voluntarily and all retained the right to leave it. Abraham Lincoln violated the oath of office he was sworn to uphold.

They gave up the right to secede when they entered.  Unless you can point to the exact verbiage where they retained that right (don't bother -- you can't).

Show me where. Otherwise, you're full of shit.

As for Texas, like any other state, they do have the right to secede.


.....and if you think our forefathers, in their wisdom, would enter into a union with NO means to get out, you're dumb as shit.

It doesn't work that way.  The States join the Union in perpetuity.  There is no "we reserve the right to leave" clause in any document wherein the States joined the Union.  And that would be nonsensical (dumb as shit) -- what would be the point?  That would be a confederation, not a union?

Like I said -- please provide a link where any State reserved the right to secede?

Also, please explain Texas v White.

This is your forum, but I won't be bullied.

It doesn't have to be written down.  The right of seccession is not an enumerated right.  It is nonetheless a right.  Our founding fathers, the very men who created this country, engaged in activities of both seccession and treason.  The question is not whether or not such a right exists, it is a right indestructible by mere mortals.  The question is under what conditions is it both moral and appropriate to attempt to secede.

I challenge that it is moral to secede when you find yourself living under a government that commits the acts of a tyrant.  Such a government that nullifies laws you pass (locally) so that you may live with your neighbors amicably.  A government that uses its purse to coerce local legislatures into passing legislation favorable only to it.  A government that seeks to limit the right of commerce.  A government that refuses to listen to your redress.  A government that actively spies against you, and garrisons it's enforcement agents near you.  And finally, a government that declares you beyond it's protection and makes war against you.  Under those circumstances, it would be moral to secede.  

However, it is only appropriate to secede if it is moral, you stand a chance, and you can't leave.  Because to secede usually means war, and it is immoral to engage in the slaughter of warfare to no possible good end.  

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

You cannot simply leave a government because you don't like its policies. Look at the forum this thread is in. What a bunch of candy-assed faggots we watch every day. Listen to them howl about their stolen rights, lack of representation, excesses of law, etc etc etc.

So they say.

The fact of the matter is: they are fully represented and protected by the law. They are free to assemble, march, give speeches, pamphlet, petition, bring suit, vote, hold office...

They may lose elections repeatedly but that's not the same as lacking the natural rights of a born citizen. Just because they claim to be on the persecuted side doesn't ake it so. Ergo they have no right ot secede simply because they feel mistreated. If they were to move towards secession the government would have every right to detain, surveill and if need be compel their retention within the Union through armed force.

If they were truly stripped of their rights to assemble, march, give speeches, pamphlet, petition, bring suit, vote, hold office etc maybe then the case for armed rebellion could be made but by that time the government would be so far off course the arguments would be academic.

If the Chavez/Castro/Obama fellating DUmmies sought to secede would Bush be obligated to grant their demands or could he unleash the full might of the FBI, CIA, NSA and DoD?

[Chris_]

If secession is illegal then we might as well stop calling ourselves a f'n Union and drop the "United States" from America. 

MOST states entered into the Union voluntarily and all retained the right to leave it. Abraham Lincoln violated the oath of office he was sworn to uphold.

They gave up the right to secede when they entered.  Unless you can point to the exact verbiage where they retained that right (don't bother -- you can't).

Show me where. Otherwise, you're full of shit.

As for Texas, like any other state, they do have the right to secede.


.....and if you think our forefathers, in their wisdom, would enter into a union with NO means to get out, you're dumb as shit.

It doesn't work that way.  The States join the Union in perpetuity.  There is no "we reserve the right to leave" clause in any document wherein the States joined the Union.  And that would be nonsensical (dumb as shit) -- what would be the point?  That would be a confederation, not a union?

Like I said -- please provide a link where any State reserved the right to secede?

Also, please explain Texas v White.

This is your forum, but I won't be bullied.

It doesn't have to be written down.  The right of seccession is not an enumerated right.  It is nonetheless a right.  Our founding fathers, the very men who created this country, engaged in activities of both seccession and treason.  The question is not whether or not such a right exists, it is a right indestructible by mere mortals.  The question is under what conditions is it both moral and appropriate to attempt to secede.

That question has been answered by the SCOTUS.

[Vagabond]

If secession is illegal then we might as well stop calling ourselves a f'n Union and drop the "United States" from America. 

MOST states entered into the Union voluntarily and all retained the right to leave it. Abraham Lincoln violated the oath of office he was sworn to uphold.

They gave up the right to secede when they entered.  Unless you can point to the exact verbiage where they retained that right (don't bother -- you can't).

Show me where. Otherwise, you're full of shit.

As for Texas, like any other state, they do have the right to secede.


.....and if you think our forefathers, in their wisdom, would enter into a union with NO means to get out, you're dumb as shit.

It doesn't work that way.  The States join the Union in perpetuity.  There is no "we reserve the right to leave" clause in any document wherein the States joined the Union.  And that would be nonsensical (dumb as shit) -- what would be the point?  That would be a confederation, not a union?

Like I said -- please provide a link where any State reserved the right to secede?

Also, please explain Texas v White.

This is your forum, but I won't be bullied.

It doesn't have to be written down.  The right of seccession is not an enumerated right.  It is nonetheless a right.  Our founding fathers, the very men who created this country, engaged in activities of both seccession and treason.  The question is not whether or not such a right exists, it is a right indestructible by mere mortals.  The question is under what conditions is it both moral and appropriate to attempt to secede.

That question has been answered by the SCOTUS.

The SCOTUS is not the final answer, as I said it is a right given by nature's creator and therefore beyond the purview of the court.

[rich_t]

I challenge that it is moral to secede when you find yourself living under a government that commits the acts of a tyrant.  Such a government that nullifies laws you pass (locally) so that you may live with your neighbors amicably.  A government that uses its purse to coerce local legislatures into passing legislation favorable only to it.  A government that seeks to limit the right of commerce.  A government that refuses to listen to your redress.  A government that actively spies against you, and garrisons it's enforcement agents near you.  And finally, a government that declares you beyond it's protection and makes war against you.

Circumstances that we are already dangerously close to IMO.