Author Topic: Is secession even legal?  (Read 11259 times)

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Offline bijou

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Is secession even legal?
« on: September 02, 2008, 09:34:59 AM »
The Palinophobia is still rife at DU with huge numbers of threads still being posted.  In an effort to find a new angle I stumbled on this:
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Paint It Black (1000+ posts)      Tue Sep-02-08 09:51 AM
Original message
Is secession even legal?
 Advertisements [?]Usually when the topic of secession comes up, it conjures images of the Confederacy, slavery, rebel flag waving rednecks, etc. But with the choice of Palin to be McCain's running mate, secessionist movements are once again in the news, albeit from a very different place - Alaska. Indeed, there are currently several active secessionist movements across the United States, everywhere from Alaska to New Hampshire to the old Confederacy (don't they ever give up?).

I'm pretty sure that I've read several places that secession is indeed illegal, that the Constitution doesn't even cover it. So what would happen nowadays if a state held a referendum to secede, and attempted to do so peacefully?

 
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no_hypocrisy  (1000+ posts)      Tue Sep-02-08 09:59 AM
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5. I don't believe it's in the Constitution, and how it would play out as 
 Edited on Tue Sep-02-08 10:02 AM by no_hypocrisy
states rights has yet to be tested. Lincoln didn't recognize the secession of the southern states. An area of a municipality can remove itself from that host municipality and proclaim it an indendependent, autonomous entity. Same thing with counties. But I'm uncertain how that plays out as a macrocosm of states splitting or a union of states splitting. Something tells me it would require an amendment to the Constitution to make it "legal".
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NoMoreMyths  (1000+ posts)       Tue Sep-02-08 10:01 AM
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6. In terms of choice and diversity, I'd say it should be
 In terms of thousands of years of history and momentum, it won't be done peacefully.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3903837

Should they not be using their time to cheerlead for Obama rather than get distracted by decades old news?



Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2008, 09:44:47 AM »
Is PIB insinuating a modern Alaskan secessionist movement would be sympathetic to the institution of slavery?
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Offline tuolumnejim

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2008, 09:46:45 AM »
So should we go back in their own archives and pull out the "Jesusland" posts from 2000 and 2004?  :doh:
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Offline miskie

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2008, 10:02:31 AM »
So should we go back in their own archives and pull out the "Jesusland" posts from 2000 and 2004?  :doh:

The DUmmies were hot to move to California to help push the secessionist movement in that state.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1911863

here is a 2004 article about it.
http://www.sfweekly.com/2004-12-08/news/how-to-secede-from-jesusland-without-really-fighting/

Offline franksolich

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 10:05:16 AM »
I dunno; maybe the primitives should be asking their fellow Vermontese primitives.

For quite some time, some primitives (more in real life than on Skins's island, though) have been calling for a free and independent Vermont, as it had been circa 1783-1791.

However, there's something wrong with the way the primitive Vermontese successionists look at the issue; for some reason, they seem to think that if Vermont were an independent country, Vermont could still send Patrick "Joe McCarthy" Leahy and Jr. to the U.S. Senate to represent them, and all the disbursements from the U.S. Treasury (grants, social security, medicare, welfare, whatnot) would continue.
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2008, 10:09:40 AM »
If secession is illegal then we might as well stop calling ourselves a f'n Union and drop the "United States" from America.  ::)

MOST states entered into the Union voluntarily and all retained the right to leave it. Abraham Lincoln violated the oath of office he was sworn to uphold.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2008, 10:43:49 AM »
If secession is illegal then we might as well stop calling ourselves a f'n Union and drop the "United States" from America.  ::)

MOST states entered into the Union voluntarily and all retained the right to leave it. Abraham Lincoln violated the oath of office he was sworn to uphold.

You're arguing a nullity, which isn't unusual on this topic.  Nothing says it is legal, nothing says it isn't.  Secession simply isn't mentioned one way or the other in the Constitution.  Arguably, it would be legal if the State wished to do it and also had the consent of the Union as a whole, which would probably require a Constitutional Amendment in order to specify a procedure.

Not so sure about the Texas thing, I think I remember reading there was something about their reintegration into the Union that gave up that original reservation of the power.  I'm not in Texas and realistically it ain't even remotely happening (unless to become the northernmost province of Mexico) in the foreseeable future, so I'm not going to go dig for it.   
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2008, 10:49:51 AM »
It's legal for Texas.

Montana as well.  They made sure the clause was written into their charter for statehood.
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Offline Lauri

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2008, 10:57:43 AM »
It's legal for Texas.

it is legal for Texas... I did a whole speech about it in college.

Offline Rebel

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2008, 11:03:08 AM »
You're arguing a nullity, which isn't unusual on this topic.  Nothing says it is legal, nothing says it isn't.  Secession simply isn't mentioned one way or the other in the Constitution.  Arguably, it would be legal if the State wished to do it and also had the consent of the Union as a whole, which would probably require a Constitutional Amendment in order to specify a procedure.

Oh, we need the approval of other states before remove ourselves from a voluntary union? Yeah, I'm saying no. If France wanted to get out of the EU, that would be up to the citizens of France, not the citizens of Italy. When the federal government starts working against the interests of the states, it's the state's right to dissolve that union. It's why governors are elected by the people, not selected by the federal government.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008, 11:52:17 AM »
You're arguing a nullity, which isn't unusual on this topic.  Nothing says it is legal, nothing says it isn't.  Secession simply isn't mentioned one way or the other in the Constitution.  Arguably, it would be legal if the State wished to do it and also had the consent of the Union as a whole, which would probably require a Constitutional Amendment in order to specify a procedure.

Oh, we need the approval of other states before remove ourselves from a voluntary union? Yeah, I'm saying no. If France wanted to get out of the EU, that would be up to the citizens of France, not the citizens of Italy. When the federal government starts working against the interests of the states, it's the state's right to dissolve that union. It's why governors are elected by the people, not selected by the federal government.

I don't think it's that simple.  The contrary argument to what you're saying is that there is a permanent change of relationship upon a State joining the Union, which involves part of the State's sovereignity being irrevocably surrendered, the only way it can be recalled is with the consent of the entity to which it was surrendered.  I don't think your analogy to the EU fits that well, as I don't think joining it it is presumed to be irrevocable.  In the case of the United States it's more analogous to an adoption.  One thing that is pretty unalterably established legally is that State property which has been ceded for Federal installations (and the cession formally accepted by the Federal government) is revocable only with the consent of the Federal government.  The State cannot get it back just by declaring it State property again, of course the unlawful seizure of such Federal property by that means was the primary spark from attempted secession to shooting war back in 1861. 
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That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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Offline Rebel

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2008, 12:16:04 PM »
Whoa, where in the US Constitution does it say that state's must surrender their sovereignty to join the union? Don't know if you've read it or not, but the sole purpose of the United States is to provide for the common defense and regulate interstate commerce between the states. Now, if there's a new amendment out there that I don't know about, maybe the 10.5th or something, I'd love to hear about it.

The federal government is WAY past what it was intended to do. States didn't give up their sovereignty when they joined the union. It's why Bush can't just order federal troops into a state and it's why he couldn't just send in aid after Katrina without the request of the governor of Louisiana.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2008, 12:23:38 PM »
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Is secession even legal?

The stupid is running rampant, alongside the hatred. This is the kind of dim-witted limp-wristed post that is typical of stevenumbers at his best. Maybe DUmmy Paint It Black is just copying that mesmerizing stevenumbers style.

Offline bijou

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2008, 01:19:51 PM »
Interesting discussion, I am learning a lot. Thanks guys.  A bit off topic but, would it be possible to eject a state from the union?



Offline Donpeyote

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2008, 01:20:48 PM »
So should we go back in their own archives and pull out the "Jesusland" posts from 2000 and 2004?  :doh:

The DUmmies were hot to move to California to help push the secessionist movement in that state.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1911863

here is a 2004 article about it.
http://www.sfweekly.com/2004-12-08/news/how-to-secede-from-jesusland-without-really-fighting/

If WW2 had not happened there would have been a 49th state called Jefferson thet would have stretchd from below Red Bluff Ca. to above Medford Oregon , US & State senators were behind the State of Jefferson and it was on the fast track (Reguardless of what WIKIPEDIA SAYS ) i KNOW OLD TIMERS INVOLVED WITH THIS MOVEMENT (and it did not start in a Redding Ca. or Ashland Oregon barber shop) but the Japs ruined the whole thing ...

Offline Chris_

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2008, 01:28:25 PM »
Interesting discussion, I am learning a lot. Thanks guys.  A bit off topic but, would it be possible to eject a state from the union?

I sure as hell hope so.  I could start with my stitch ripper, tearing out the stars for California and Massachutsetts right now.

You are the weakest links.  Good-bye.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2008, 02:14:01 PM »
Whoa, where in the US Constitution does it say that state's must surrender their sovereignty to join the union? Don't know if you've read it or not, but the sole purpose of the United States is to provide for the common defense and regulate interstate commerce between the states. Now, if there's a new amendment out there that I don't know about, maybe the 10.5th or something, I'd love to hear about it.

The federal government is WAY past what it was intended to do. States didn't give up their sovereignty when they joined the union. It's why Bush can't just order federal troops into a state and it's why he couldn't just send in aid after Katrina without the request of the governor of Louisiana.

Well, yeah, I have, and while those are the two biggies, there is really a lot more to Federal sovereign power than you are taking into account, including the exclusive power to conclude treaties with foreign powers or otherwise conduct foreign affairs, which goes way beyond just providing for the common defense.  The fact that the States do not control their own borders (in the sense of having power to exclude people or levy tariffs) can be regarded in part as a Commerce Clause issue, but there are aspects of both 14th Amendment Equal Protection Clause and as well as tariff/excise issues as well.  Both the power to control their borders and deal with foreign nations are therefore aspects of sovereignity that were indeed surrendered upon accession to the Union.
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Offline Vagabond

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2008, 04:20:23 PM »
If secession is illegal then we might as well stop calling ourselves a f'n Union and drop the "United States" from America.  ::)

MOST states entered into the Union voluntarily and all retained the right to leave it. Abraham Lincoln violated the oath of office he was sworn to uphold.

You're arguing a nullity, which isn't unusual on this topic.  Nothing says it is legal, nothing says it isn't.  Secession simply isn't mentioned one way or the other in the Constitution.  Arguably, it would be legal if the State wished to do it and also had the consent of the Union as a whole, which would probably require a Constitutional Amendment in order to specify a procedure.

Not so sure about the Texas thing, I think I remember reading there was something about their reintegration into the Union that gave up that original reservation of the power.  I'm not in Texas and realistically it ain't even remotely happening (unless to become the northernmost province of Mexico) in the foreseeable future, so I'm not going to go dig for it.   
Andrew Jackson did not believe that such a right existed in the constitution.  Since he was the first president to face such a problem I guess we would have to think about what he had to say about it during the nullification crisis.  He was of the opinion that if the union of the states could be dissolved at will and for whatever reason by any state, that would endanger and collapse the entire union. 

Now, I would argue that secession is indeed a right, otherwise how exactly did this nation known as the United States come into being, however I would question the wisdom of dissolving the union for any but the most celestial of causes.
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Offline Vagabond

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2008, 04:23:01 PM »
You're arguing a nullity, which isn't unusual on this topic.  Nothing says it is legal, nothing says it isn't.  Secession simply isn't mentioned one way or the other in the Constitution.  Arguably, it would be legal if the State wished to do it and also had the consent of the Union as a whole, which would probably require a Constitutional Amendment in order to specify a procedure.

Oh, we need the approval of other states before remove ourselves from a voluntary union? Yeah, I'm saying no. If France wanted to get out of the EU, that would be up to the citizens of France, not the citizens of Italy. When the federal government starts working against the interests of the states, it's the state's right to dissolve that union. It's why governors are elected by the people, not selected by the federal government.

I don't think it's that simple.  The contrary argument to what you're saying is that there is a permanent change of relationship upon a State joining the Union, which involves part of the State's sovereignity being irrevocably surrendered, the only way it can be recalled is with the consent of the entity to which it was surrendered.  I don't think your analogy to the EU fits that well, as I don't think joining it it is presumed to be irrevocable.  In the case of the United States it's more analogous to an adoption.  One thing that is pretty unalterably established legally is that State property which has been ceded for Federal installations (and the cession formally accepted by the Federal government) is revocable only with the consent of the Federal government.  The State cannot get it back just by declaring it State property again, of course the unlawful seizure of such Federal property by that means was the primary spark from attempted secession to shooting war back in 1861. 
Technically, that piece of property was only attacked after an officer of the government of the United States broke his word and occupied it.  He made he and his men a threat to commerce within the port of Charleston.
There comes a time when even good men must run up the black flag of anarchy and slit throats. - H.L. Mencken

Offline Vagabond

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2008, 04:25:54 PM »
Interesting discussion, I am learning a lot. Thanks guys.  A bit off topic but, would it be possible to eject a state from the union?
There has been an argument to that effect.  I believe that if three-fourths of the remaining states as well as two thirds of the remaining members. of congress signed of on it, then yes it likely would be legal.
There comes a time when even good men must run up the black flag of anarchy and slit throats. - H.L. Mencken

Offline Chris_

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2008, 04:29:20 PM »
Andrew Jackson did not believe that such a right existed in the constitution.  Since he was the first president to face such a problem I guess we would have to think about what he had to say about it during the nullification crisis.  He was of the opinion that if the union of the states could be dissolved at will and for whatever reason by any state, that would endanger and collapse the entire union. 

The 10th Amendment automatically makes Jackson wrong in this case.  

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The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Quite simply, the Constitution does not give any branch of the Federal government specific authority to restrain states who choose to leave the Union, nor does it forbid the right to leave the Union to the States.  So, according to the 10th Amendment, that right is BY DEFAULT  "reserved to the States respectively".
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Offline bijou

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2008, 05:29:23 PM »
Interesting discussion, I am learning a lot. Thanks guys.  A bit off topic but, would it be possible to eject a state from the union?
There has been an argument to that effect.  I believe that if three-fourths of the remaining states as well as two thirds of the remaining members. of congress signed of on it, then yes it likely would be legal.
Thanks.  It would be pretty difficult then, which I suppose is the aim.  Unlikely that the country would be polarised to that degree.



Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 05:39:12 PM »
Technically, that piece of property was only attacked after an officer of the government of the United States broke his word and occupied it.  He made he and his men a threat to commerce within the port of Charleston.

I see, once property is stolen it becomes the property of the thief, and the thief is therefore fully justified in firing the first shot to get the property that will become his under that rule, because after all the victim might fight back if he doesn't.  Not buying any today, thanks, but it's not really germane to the issue of whether secession is legal at all.
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Offline comradebillyboy

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 05:42:34 PM »
It's legal for Texas.

It didn't work out too well for Texas the last time they tried to secede from the union. I think the civil war settled that question pretty clearly.

Offline Rebel

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Re: Is secession even legal?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 05:59:28 PM »
It's legal for Texas.

It didn't work out too well for Texas the last time they tried to secede from the union. I think the civil war settled that question pretty clearly.


So North Vietnam was right? That how that works?  :whatever:
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site