MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet

[JohnnyReb]

On the TV news last night I saw one of the people wounded in the shooting. He was displaying his arm and telling the reporter that the doctors had left the "shrapnel" in his arm. Turns out he was talking about shotgun pellets in his arm. The scabs on his arm looked to me like they were made by about a #4 shot.

Now, if you were going to carry a 12 ga. shotgun into a place intending to kill as many people as possible, wouldn't you use a better load?

[Bad Dog]

Not even Kalashnikov is immune from Murphy.

But....but our infantry always carried them in the Nam you know.

[txradioguy]

AP Source: Assault rifle jammed in Colo. attack

Thank God for small miracles.

[AprilRazz]

TheMastersNemesis (1,025 posts)

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The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
I know many people know how deadly the .223 round from an M-16 is or AR 15. For those people who do not know. Here is what I discovered my first days in Vietnam.

My first day in the field our squad leader shot two VC in a brief skirmish. They were left behind to harass our company when we were searching an enemy camp. I came up on the scene less than a minute after these two enemy were hit. There was not a mark on them except a couple of very small holes similar to a 22 caliber rifle. Yet they were done for because the bullet traveled all over their body. Even if you were hit in an extremity it could very well amputate that part of the body.

There was good reason why you never locked and loaded any M-16 unless you were ready for immediate action. It was simply too dangerous a weapon to be even shot by accident.

The .223 was designed to have only just enough rotation that when it strikes an object it acts like a dud and has the stopping action of a 50 caliber weapon. What makes it so bad is that the bullet is meant to travel throughout the target it hits and then fragment. The lethality of this kind of weapon is so severe that it should not be on the streets of this country.

There is no earthly reason to have such an assault weapon available to the general public. It is a murder and killing weapon.

And forget what you see in the movies. High velocity assault weapons will go through two car doors and still do damage. The only place safe in a firefight is behind the engine block.

Little problem with your argument there Skippy. The US military has never used the .223 round ever. The M16 uses a 5.56 round.

[zeitgeist]

Thank God for small miracles.

I may have to ping my jarhead armorer but I suspect that it is not so much a miracle it jammed as that they would work in the first place.  I have no great expertise in arms so if I get a chance I will defer to him on the issue of what happens when you try to feed that many rounds through a breech not really made for it from a device made who knows where. 

I mean the theory sounds just wonderful but I keep thinking more of thermal expansion spring tension getting the best of things. 

There is plenty of info available on why the M16 use to jam in Nam out there in cyber space. 

[DumbAss Tanker]

I may have to ping my jarhead armorer but I suspect that it is not so much a miracle it jammed as that they would work in the first place.  I have no great expertise in arms so if I get a chance I will defer to him on the issue of what happens when you try to feed that many rounds through a breech not really made for it from a device made who knows where. 

I mean the theory sounds just wonderful but I keep thinking more of thermal expansion spring tension getting the best of things. 

There is plenty of info available on why the M16 use to jam in Nam out there in cyber space. 

AKs malfunction like any other machine, and they are easily cleared but not one-handed, which is almost impossible.  Generally it's the operator that is to blame, in this case the most probable scenario would be that some of his costume or gear fouled the ejection port and a fired cartridge case failed to clear it, jamming the bolt.  AK magazines are both simple and exceedingly robust, so unless he was using some incredibly shitty plastic-bodied knock-off, a magazine failure is literally less than a one-in-a-million chance.  I can't say I have ever seen or heard of a steel milsurp AK magazine failing, but it's always possible.

[Big Dog]

Not even Kalashnikov is immune from Murphy.

AKs malfunction like any other machine, and they are easily cleared but not one-handed, which is almost impossible.  Generally it's the operator that is to blame, in this case the most probable scenario would be that some of his costume or gear fouled the ejection port and a fired cartridge case failed to clear it, jamming the bolt.  AK magazines are both simple and exceedingly robust, so unless he was using some incredibly shitty plastic-bodied knock-off, a magazine failure is literally less than a one-in-a-million chance.  I can't say I have ever seen or heard of a steel milsurp AK magazine failing, but it's always possible.

I've been reading it was an AR.

[Carl]

On the TV news last night I saw one of the people wounded in the shooting. He was displaying his arm and telling the reporter that the doctors had left the "shrapnel" in his arm. Turns out he was talking about shotgun pellets in his arm. The scabs on his arm looked to me like they were made by about a #4 shot.

Now, if you were going to carry a 12 ga. shotgun into a place intending to kill as many people as possible, wouldn't you use a better load?

According to Atman one uses deer shot.

[AprilRazz]

There are some interesting 100 round threads going on over there too featuring Weapons Expert gNad. 

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/1002987381
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/1002991916

 

There was a "Best of" exchange in your first link...

tabasco (17,546 posts)
56. Hahahahahaha.
You live in fear. Must suck.

Signed,

Combat infantry vet.

Marinedem (102 posts)
61. Yep. That's me. Big ole fraidy cat.
I'm so scared that I don't even want free men and women to be armed around me! The thought of someone having a weapon just makes me quiver. That's why I'm such an anti gunner.

Wait, that's not me......

One wonders how an supposed combat infantry vet ever made it through combat with such a mortal fear of an armed adversary.

[Airwolf]

An AR-15/M-16 would fail or malfunction for a few reasons.

1. a bad magazine spring or one that's fouled with dirt. I heard yesterday that he had one of those 100 round drum magazines in his AR and if so I'm wondering if he got one of those South Korean knock offs of the Beta C-mags and due to poor quality it jammed while rapid firing his rifle.

2. He may not have lubed the bolt in his AR and the carbon from the rounds caused the jam. When I was in the Army and the Guard we made sure our bolts were lubed to keep the bolts going with all the blanks we shoot. Live rounds are different but having the bolt lubed would be needed to keep the rifle working in either case

[Bad Dog]

An AR-15/M-16 would fail or malfunction for a few reasons.

1. a bad magazine spring or one that's fouled with dirt. I heard yesterday that he had one of those 100 round drum magazines in his AR and if so I'm wondering if he got one of those South Korean knock offs of the Beta C-mags and due to poor quality it jammed while rapid firing his rifle.

2. He may not have lubed the bolt in his AR and the carbon from the rounds caused the jam. When I was in the Army and the Guard we made sure our bolts were lubed to keep the bolts going with all the blanks we shoot. Live rounds are different but having the bolt lubed would be needed to keep the rifle working in either case

Good start on a list.  This guy sounds like he got his training on the internet & cut rate gear.  Too bad he didn't screw up quicker.

[DumbAss Tanker]

I've been reading it was an AR.

I hadn't heard that, but then I haven't been following the details, I think the last thing I tuned in for was the fact that they had managed not to blow up the apartment building after all.  The reports were all AK or AK47 for the first 24 hours, but between the press and the police stumbling all over themselves to make shit up out of their preconceived ideas bag to fill air time, it wouldn't surprise me if they hosed that up completely.

It would take several hundred rounds of the cheap shit to foul an unlubed AR bolt badly enough to make it jam, but a knock-off hundred-rounder would be the most likely thing to fail if he had an AR with one of those in it.

[Chris_]

The rifle was an M&P.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Yeah, I'm not sure where I picked up the AK from, but it was one of the morning news shows the morning right after.  After all, even the Master's Enema was talking about .223/5.56 in his/her/its OP.  Well, like I say, I have other shit going on and haven't followed the minor details as they were corrected, amended, and updated.

[Big Dog]

Yeah, I'm not sure where I picked up the AK from, but it was one of the morning news shows the morning right after.  After all, even the Master's Enema was talking about .223/5.56 in his/her/its OP.  Well, like I say, I have other shit going on and haven't followed the minor details as they were corrected, amended, and updated.

Roger that.

[67 Rover]

Another cause of malfunctions to the untrained is short cycling or limp wristing. We need to know how he was holding the M&P to be sure.

[BlueStateSaint]

Another cause of malfunctions to the untrained is short cycling or limp wristing. We need to know how he was holding the M&P to be sure.

Wouldn't those two be negated in a semi-auto rifle?

[67 Rover]

Wouldn't those two be negated in a semi-auto rifle?

Negative, not having a firm grip on the weapon allows the bolt to not complete the cycling as much of the energy (Kinetic recoil) is lost to rearward movement of the firearm. This is most often associated with spring recoil type and a few gas operated weapons.



 

[Skul]

Just a note. The S&W, M&P is a 9mm handgun, not a longarm.
Reports state that he carried an AR, which is gas operated, and thus not really influenced
by "limp wristing".  The malfunction was likely caused by the after-market magazine.

[Chris_]

Just a note. The S&W, M&P is a 9mm handgun, not a longarm.

For some confusing reason S&W likes to use the same or similar names for different firearms.

M&P15 Rifles

[Bad Dog]

Just a note. The S&W, M&P is a 9mm handgun, not a longarm.
Reports state that he carried an AR, which is gas operated, and thus not really influenced
by "limp wristing".  The malfunction was likely caused by the after-market magazine.

I agree but, I think poor cleaning/maintenance or bad ammo are also likely.

[67 Rover]

I misunderstood, I though it was an M&P rifle that misfired.

[BlueStateSaint]

I misunderstood, I though it was an M&P rifle that misfired.

That is correct.  But, it had a 100-round drum magazine that likely was the reason for the jam.

[BadCat]

That is correct.  But, it had a 100-round drum magazine that likely was the reason for the jam.

Really.  What idiot would think one of those drums would work well?  Someone who doesn't know much about firearms.

[BlueStateSaint]

Really.  What idiot would think one of those drums would work well?  Someone who doesn't know much about firearms.

Steel on target, BC.  Nice to see you around (hopefully for longer than five seconds!), BTW.