Author Topic: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History  (Read 548 times)

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Offline SVPete

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Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« on: December 29, 2021, 11:40:07 AM »
This sort of came up in the Shoutbox in reference to the USS Texas.

It's simplistic, but the history of battleships can be divided into several eras:

* Pre-Dreadnought - 4 main guns, split 2 each fore and aft, with medium caliber secondary and tertiary batteries; pre-1910;

* Dreadnought types - 8 or more 11"-12" main guns (split fore, aft, and wings/midships), with secondaries being 4"-6" quick-firing guns to defend against torpedo boats and destroyers; 1906-~1910;

* Super-Dreadnought types - 8 or more >12" main guns (split fore, aft, and some midships), with quick-firing secondaries; ~1910-early 1920s;

* Fast battleships - 27 knots and faster; mid-1930-mid-1940s.

So, where do USN BBs that fought in WW2 fit?

USS Arkansas was a Dreadnought type, with quite a few 12", 50 caliber (12"/50) guns. She was of the last USN Dreadnought type class, and was slated for scrapping, but impending WW2 happened first.

Classmates USS New York and USS Texas were the USN's first Super-Dreadnoughts, sporting 10 14"/45 guns.

The USN had two types of Super-Dreadnoughts, those with traditionally distributed armor (the New York class) and those with "all or nothing" armor. The latter concentrated armor to protect parts of the ship necessary for buoyancy, propulsion, and fighting and kept those areas centrally located. These were also called "standards", because they had similar armament, architecture, and speed. This simplified crew training and fighting in task groups. The "all or nothing" armor scheme was considered such an advance that the older USS Arkansas, USS New York, and USS Texas were kept out of the Pacific until the chances they might encounter an IJN battleship were believed to be near zero.

All of the battleships present in PH on December 7, 1941 were "standards". The three New Mexico class BBs were in the Atlantic, because of Bismarck and Tirpitz. Class leader USS Colorado was at, IIRC, Bremerton getting a partial rebuild modernization. Of the BBs sunk or damaged at PH, only the USS Arizona and USS Oklahoma were not raised and repaired/rebuilt. Arizona, for obvious reasons; Oklahoma was refloated, but deemed too badly damaged to be worth repairing (besides the rebuild that was done to her class leader USS Nevada, much of Oklahoma's side was blown open, and her VTE engines probably should have been replaced, as obsolete).

Several Iowa class fast battleships fought at Korea, Vietnam, and in the Gulf War (as well as WW2).

So, what USN BBs were preserved? No pre-Dreadnoughts are still around (USS Oregon was a museum before WW2, but was stripped to a hulk during the war - scrap steel). No Dreadnoughts are still around (all but Arkansas were scrapped or de-militarized - USS Wyoming and USS Utah - and Arkansas was sunk in the Bikini A-bomb tests).

Of Super-Dreadnoughts, only USS Texas was preserved.

Of fast battleships: class leader USS North Carolina is at Norfolk; South Dakota class BB USS Alabama is at Mobile and USS Massachusetts is at Battleship Cove in Massachusetts; class leader USS Iowa is at Long Beach, CA, USS New Jersey is at New Jersey, USS Wisconsin is at Norfolk, and USS Missouri is at Pearl Harbor.

IMO, it is very sad that not one of the standards that was at PH has been preserved, though I understand that the late 1940s and the 1950s were a very different era.

USS Texas is the only
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2021, 12:39:27 PM »
I believe USS Texas is headed for drydock sometime next year. First time out of salt water in 100 years, according to the curator of the USS New Jersey.

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Offline ironhorsedriver

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2021, 12:52:15 PM »
The North Carolina is in Wilmington, NC, not Norfolk.

Offline SVPete

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2021, 01:28:23 PM »
The North Carolina is in Wilmington, NC, not Norfolk.

Thanks for the correction.

North Carolina and classmate Washington were originally designed to have 14" guns, due to treaty, but the treaty got ended and both got 16"/45s (not the same Mark as the 1920s Colorado class). Due to USN design practice, both were originally armored to withstand their intended 14"/50(?) guns, and the armor was not scaled up when the guns were. In WW2, only the Washington went toe to toe with a "battleship", and Kirishima had 14"/45 guns. Kirishima got so chewed up she eventually sank, while Washington was not seen until starting that damage, and Washington wasn't hit (IIRC) (South Dakota was, but only her superstructure was significantly damaged).

The following South Dakota class also had 16"/45s, with corresponding armor. The Iowa class had 16"/50s and corresponding armor.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2021, 06:34:43 PM »
We're accustomed to the US Navy being the most powerful navy in the world, but in the early 1880s it wasn't, not even close. After the Civil War it had languished in neglect for two decades, while the UK, France, and Russia had continued the transition from iron clad ships-of-the-line and frigates to what are now called pre-Dreadnought battleships. In the mid 1880s Congress woke to this, somewhat. A couple of battleship-ish ships, USS Maine and USS Texas were ordered in 1886 and commissioned in 1895. They were odd and obsolete architectural dead ends when commissioned. when they were commissioned.

In 1890 three more battleships were ordered that were of the pre-Dreadnought pattern, and they were commissioned in late 1895 and 1896. There were just three of them, and they weren't exactly world beaters, but they were a step into the state of the battleship art. Following them was USS Iowa, an improved one-off class. These served and fought in the Spanish-American War.

Between 1897 and 1908 followed six more classes of pre-Dreadnought battleships, some of which were incremental improvement, one class embodying a money-saving less-than-optimal secondary battery experimental location. The ships of the last two classes, the Connecticut and Mississippi classes were basically obsolete when commissioned, made so by the technological leap of HMS Dreadnought, which was followed in 1908 by the Dreadnought-type South Carolina class battleships (USS South Carolina was actually begun before HMS Dreadnought, but was slower in construction).

By the time USS South Carolina was commissioned the US Navy was actually "visible" on the world scene, though behind the RN and French Navy, and possibly behind or similar to the German and Italian navies.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2021, 03:02:23 PM »
Why "Dreadnoughts"? The easy uninformative answer is that HMS Dreadnought was the first battleship with the particular armament scheme to be commissioned. So, why the change in armament?

Pre-Dreadnoughts had followed the traditional centuries-old scheme that assumed that battle would occur at relatively short ranges and guns of varying calibers would have certain purposes. The 1903 Battle of Tsushima Strait showed that battles would be fought at longer than traditional ranges, due to improved large caliber gun accuracy and firing rate. Medium caliber secondaries and tertiaries were shorter range, due to how they were mounted, were not very effective against (then) modern armor, and at longer ranges it was difficult to discern their shell splashes from main gun shell splashes, confusing fire control. IOW, medium caliber secondaries and tertiaries were significant weight that accomplished little of significance.

Navies worldwide studied the Battle of Tsushima Strait, and HMS Dreadnought was the first battleship commissioned that reflected its "lessons". Dreadnought had 12"/45 guns (standard at the time) in 5 twin turrets - one fore, two aft, and one each in starboard and port "wing turrets". She also had a number of 12-pounder (3") quick-firing guns for defense against destroyers and torpedo boats. These latter were awkwardly mounted and were moved around during Dreadnought's service.

The USN also recognized that "all"-big-gun battleships was the way to go, but took a somewhat different tack. The two-ship South Carolina class had 12"/45s in four twin turrets, two super-firing fore, and two super-firing aft. South Carolina had 22 casemate mounted 3" guns along the sides of the ship.

While the South Carolina class nominally had two main guns fewer than HMS Dreadnought, the different gun layouts meant that both had 8 gun broadsides, and Dreadnought's wing turrets had very limited firing arcs. The wing turrets placed significant weight at Dreadnought's beams and had more complicated magazine placement. South Carolina's center-line turret placement simplified balance, stresses, and magazine placement. Eventually, Britain also went with center-line turret placement.

The USN had four classes of Dreadnoughts (12" guns), with increasing size, number/caliber (barrel length) of main guns, and size of quick-firing secondaries (5" became the norm, with 5"/51s becoming the guns also used in USN super Dreadnoughts).

Almost all USN pre-Dreadnoughts and Dreadnoughts had been scrapped by the start of WW2 due to naval treaties. Pre-Dread USS Kearsarge (the only USN battleship not named for a state) had become a crane ship used in ship construction. Pre-Dread USS Illinois was converted to a barracks ship and renamed USS Prairie State. Dreadnoughts USS Wyoming and USS Utah were used as gunnery training ships, their 12" main guns having been removed. USS Utah was sunk in the PH attack.
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Offline ironhorsedriver

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2021, 04:06:10 PM »
South Dakota didn't fair to well in the engagement with Kirishima, she took 42 hits. If Washington hadn't of been there she would probably be on the bottom. She had a power outage at a key time, Washington's fire was spot on accurate though. SoDak performed well the remainder of the war, primarily in bombardment. I wonder if power outages plauged her sisters also? I feel the need for research. In hindsight, it probably helped Washington greatly that SoDak was getting all that attention!

Offline SVPete

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2021, 05:02:51 PM »
IIRC, SoDak was on one side of some burning US DDs, silhouetted by them from Kirishima's viewpoint. Washington was on the other side of the unfortunate DDs, unseen by Kirishima. Washington had "seen" Kirishima on radar, but because she couldn't "see" SoDak, held fire until Kirishima's firing on SoDak made the identity clear.

SoDak had had a major electrical problem that was at least partly due to operator error. Her superstructure received significant damage - knocking out radar, fire control, and radio - but her armor wasn't penetrated and she was capable of full speed (which she used to clear the area).

In my previous post I had referred to Kirishima as a "battleship". She was of the Kongo class, four ships that had begun as battle cruisers, ca. 1913-1915, one built in England, the rest built in Japan. Having to make the most of what they had, due to naval treaties, the four Kongos went through a couple of updates/upgrades that replaced their engines and improved their armor. Their armor still wasn't adequate for being hit by 14" guns, and being the oldest of their battleships, weren't much esteemed by the IJN. Ironically, they were the fastest battleships the IJN had, and were suitable for steaming with their carriers, and were also best suited for use in the Solomons (fast enough to bombard and get clear of Henderson Field, while not guzzling as much fuel as Yamato and Musashi). The crippling and sinking of Hiei and Kirishima in the two actions of the Naval Battle of the Solomon Islands saved Henderson Field from some terrible bombardments.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2022, 02:42:17 PM »
I mentioned above what made HMS Dreadnought so different from previous battleships that it changed how battleships were armed and gave a name to battleships of that armament scheme. Another significant, technological, change with the Dreadnought was the switch from vertical triple expansion (reciprocating, or piston) engines to steam turbine engines. VTE battleships typically had a speed of 17-19 knots, and could not sustain their top speed for long duration without mechanical problems developing. HMS Dreadnought's speed was 21 knots, and the RN's Dreadnought-style battle cruisers were even faster (faster than the armored cruiser type ships they made obsolete).

Dreadnought's USN near-contemporary, the South Carolina class still used VTE engines, with a speed of 19 knots. The subsequent Delaware class BBs had VTE engines and 21knots. The Florida and Wyoming classes were the USN's first use of steam turbine engines, had 21 and 20.5 knot top speeds, respectively, but the USN was not satisfied with their efficiency. The USN reverted to VTE engines in the New York class, and USS Oklahoma, of the Nevada class. From the Pennsylvania class onward, USN BBs used steam turbine engines.

As mentioned above, pre-naval treaty USN BBs starting with the Nevada class changed from an incremental armor layout, in which all parts of a ship had some armor, to a layout and architecture in which vital parts of the ship - weapons, magazines, propulsion - were concentrated in an area with sufficient buoyancy and were fully armored, while other areas of the ship simply had the necessary structural steel. This gave critical areas maximum protection. These ships also had very similar armament, magazine and engineering layouts (except for USS Oklahoma, which had VTE engines, and the Colorado class, which had 16" guns), which simplified crew training, and all were designed to have the same 21 knot maximum speed (Oklahoma may have been only 20.5 knots, but...). IOW, except for the Colorado class' 16" guns, they were functionally almost identical, which is why they were called "Standards".

The 1922 Washington Naval Treaty brought building battleships and battle cruisers to an "end" (a ~15 year pause, with allowance for replacement of older ships when scrapping an older ship brought a nation to less than their allotted maximum ... it was complicated). The last classes to be built were the RN's Nelson class & HMS Hood, the USN's Colorado class, and the IJN's Nagato class, all 16"-gunned (the Nagatos were 16.1"). Remaining pre-Dreadnoughts and early Dreadnoughts and some super-Dreadnoughts were scrapped (with a few demilitarized and converted to other uses). Most battleships and battle cruisers under construction were scrapped, with some converted to aircraft carriers (e.g. USS Lexington and Saratoga and the IJN's Akagi and Kaga - all but the latter having been started as battle cruisers).

The 1930s brought an additional, London Naval Treaty, the start of building of some, already allowed, new battleships, and Japan's abrogation of the naval treaties. The RN built the 14" gunned King George V battleships, 10X 14" guns, 28.3 knots. The USN built the North Carolina class, upgunned during construction from 9X 14" to 9X 16" guns, 28 knots. The IJN built the much larger Yamato class, 18.1: guns, 27 knots. These all were basically fast enough to steam in carrier task forces (sort of), though whether their speed was chosen for this, I'm not sure.  In WW2, Yamato and Musashi guzzled fuel to a degree that it sometimes limited their usage.

The USN's North Carolina (2), South Dakota (4), and Iowa (4) classes all had 16" guns, though only the Iowas had 16"/50 guns (the rest being 16"45). Where the North Carolina and South Dakota class BBs forced carriers to steam at less than full speed, so as to keep formation, the Iowas had top speeds that matched that of the carriers, and thus were the only USN fast battleships that saw service after WW2.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2022, 04:37:06 PM »
Bingo on the Yamato class BB's guzzling fuel -- but Japan also had an increasingly difficult problem obtaining fuel oil -- probably because their sphere of influence became smaller and smaller.

Yamato was sent on a suicide mission to Okinawa, but was sunk while she was on her way. Not sure what happened to Musashi, but I'm sure it wasn't good. Biggest battleships ever built.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2022, 04:59:22 PM »
When Japan went to war (outside of China) the Dutch East Indies (modern Indonesia) was one of their major targets, because of the oilfields and refineries there. They conquered the key areas as quickly as they could - stunning the world with how fast they conquered so much - but the well and refinery operators managed substantial sabotage before the Japanese captured the area. So substantial repairs were necessary to get the oil flowing to Japan. And one of the ships a US submarine managed to sink was carrying a bunch of technical people coming to get things operating. So even in late 1942 Yamato and Musashi were not used in the Solomons campaign where their big guns could have done serious damage to Henderson Field, and their speed could have had them out of harm's way after a bombardment. But they were fuel guzzlers, while the Kongos were much less so.

In 1943 and 1944, the sinkings of tankers by submarines got so critical that IJN warship started using unrefined crude oil - it worked OK, though it was more volatile than proper fuel oil. That volatility made fuel fires worse when ships were damaged.

Musashi was sunk in the early stages of the Battle of Leyte Gulf. US carrier pilots discovered and attacked Kurita's "Center Force", the main force, for most of a whole day while they were headed into the Philippines. Musashi became a main target, and through the day got smothered in bombs and torpedo hits. Kurita turned around, for whatever reason, Halsey believed Kurita was headed home, and he went after the IJN carrier force, which was coming from the north, and was a decoy (they had almost no planes). Kurita turned around after dark and in the morning came into Leyte Gulf and got tangled with the escort carrier group supporting the landing. Yamato was in Kurita's force.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

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Offline Zathras

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Re: Some Quick and Probably Over-Simplified Battleship History
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2022, 01:49:07 AM »
The Battle off Samar is where Kurita's Center Force tangled with Taffy 3 who was guarding the landing beaches of Leyte Island.

https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-and-operations/world-war-ii/1944/samar.html
http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Samar.php

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