The Conservative Cave
Current Events => Breaking News => Topic started by: Miss Mia on December 11, 2008, 09:54:02 PM
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(http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/ap/1af449b6-eec7-4613-b12c-f624cc2acd9f.h2.jpg)
Senate negotiations on auto bailout break down (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218/)
News of a deal gave way to impasse; sticking point was union wage cuts
WASHINGTON - A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said he was "terribly disappointed" about the demise of an emerging bipartisan deal to rescue Detroit's Big Three.
He spoke shortly after Republicans left a closed-door meeting where they balked at giving the automakers federal aid unless their powerful union agreed to slash wages next year to bring them into line with those of Japanese carmakers.
Republican Sen. George V. Voinovich of Ohio, a strong bailout supporter, said the UAW was willing to make the cuts — but not until 2011.
Reid was working to set a swift test vote on the measure Thursday night, but it was just a formality. The bill was virtually certain to fail to reach the 60-vote threshold it would need to clear to advance.
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Republican Sen. George V. Voinovich of Ohio, a strong bailout supporter, said the UAW was willing to make the cuts — but not until 2011.
Voinovich is a RINO and always has been IMO. I see the UAW still want's to keep pulling the strings in Detroit.
I'm glad the Senate said NO.
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:cheersmate: :II: :II: :bday: :cheerleader2: :rocker2: :party:
Well I guess it's obvious how I feel
The one thing I like is this
Reid says the issue won’t be taken up again until next session.
:cheersmate: :II: :II: :bday: :cheerleader2: :rocker2: :party:
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"It's disappointing that Congress failed to act tonight," a White House statement said.
Congress did act tonight. The Senate said no!
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This is a switch but I am glad for it. Usually it is the Senate doing the dumb stuff and the House Republicans say no. I guess it's just a sign of the times. :bday: :blowkiss: :yahoo:
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Congress did act tonight. The Senate said no!
No shit.......................WTF is wrong with em......................the dumbass bailout grant failed not the Senate :thatsright:
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All the UAW has to do is hold on for about another 6 weeks then the new regime will give them everything they want.
:loser:
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All the UAW has to do is hold on for about another 6 weeks then the new regime will give them everything they want.
:loser:
God willing, they won't hang that long.
It is time for a serious cutting -- and let the chips fall where they may
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White House may tap Wall Street fund for autos (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218/)
Administration says could use $700 billion fund to help ailing automakers
WASHINGTON - The White House said Friday it is willing to consider using some of the $700 billion Wall Street bailout fund to help the U.S. auto industry.
The news comes the day after a bailout-weary Congress killed a $14 billion package to aid struggling U.S. automakers. A partisan dispute Thursday night over union wage cuts derailed a last-ditch effort to revive the emergency aid before year’s end.
Republicans, breaking sharply with President George W. Bush as his term draws to a close, refused to back federal aid for Detroit’s beleaguered Big Three without a guarantee that the United Auto Workers would agree by the end of next year to wage cuts to bring their pay into line with U.S. plants of Japanese carmakers. The UAW refused to do so before its current contract with the automakers expires in 2011.
The breakdown left the fate of the auto industry — and the 3 million jobs it touches — in limbo at a time of growing economic turmoil. General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC have said they could be weeks from collapse. Ford Motor Co. says it does not need federal help now, but its survival is far from certain.
Democratic leaders called on Bush to immediately tap the $700 billion Wall Street bailout fund for emergency aid to the auto industry.
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They need to stay tough on this because any money they get isn't going to be enough. The Big 3 will keep coming back and keep coming back, more more more. People are going to eventually get PO'd. I'll put it this way; if people don't get upset at having to constantly bail them out, then this country deserves to collaspe.
The bailout will happen under the Dems, so let them take the heat for throwing money down a hole.
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The bailout will happen under the Dems, so let them take the heat for throwing money down a hole.
From what I understand GM and Chrysler may not make it to Obamas Inaugaration. Sounds like Bush is gonna use part of the 700 billion. So apparently now instead of a bridge loan we really are going to bail them out! I know everybody here is skeptical about those loans being paid back but if Bush does this there will not even be the possibility of getting it back. Not really sure about the wisdom of what just happened yesterday!
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If this "bailout package" ever goes through, I will NEVER buy a car from the Big 3 again. Why would they need my business anyway? They'll just get my money through the use of government whether I buy their product or not. If they're going to take my money by force, I'll be damned if I'll give them more of it of my own volition.
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Voinovich is a RINO and always has been IMO. I see the UAW still want's to keep pulling the strings in Detroit.
True, of course if you are a Senator from Michigan or any State bordering it, not backing the bailout is a suicide move, that's just political reality.
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From what I understand GM and Chrysler may not make it to Obamas Inaugaration. Sounds like Bush is gonna use part of the 700 billion. So apparently now instead of a bridge loan we really are going to bail them out! I know everybody here is skeptical about those loans being paid back but if Bush does this there will not even be the possibility of getting it back. Not really sure about the wisdom of what just happened yesterday!
What happened yesterday was short-sightedness on everyone. The failure of GM will reverberate throughout and I think most people don't realize the ramifications of what will happen.
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What happened yesterday was short-sightedness on everyone. The failure of GM will reverberate throughout and I think most people don't realize the ramifications of what will happen.
Yes. I think alot of people don't realize that if GM and Chrysler fall they will take alot of tier 1&2 suppliers with them. Honda and Toyota use alot of those same suppliers,so they will be hurt in this as well!
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The death of the UAW is a long-time coming. My dad worked at the OKC GM plant for 3 years, paid his MANDATORY union dues out of each check, and got absolutely zero support from them when he was terminated as an employee. They are nothing but ****ing leeches. Good riddance.
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Yes. I think alot of people don't realize that if GM and Chrysler fall they will take alot of tier 1&2 suppliers with them. Honda and Toyota use alot of those same suppliers,so they will be hurt in this as well!
Exactly, it goes much further than the actual plants and UAW employees. Down the line to steel employees and truck drivers and the porters at dealerships.
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Replacement part businesses and mechanics shops will become lucrative, because, the need for automotive transportation has not and will not decrease. Plant retooling is in what is in the future for them.
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Replacement part businesses and mechanics shops will become lucrative, because, the need for automotive transportation has not and will not decrease. Plant retooling is in what is in the future for them.
With what funding source? A government loan. That's where.
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With what funding source? A government loan. That's where.
Hi-5 Tuck!
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With what funding source? A government loan. That's where.
Yeah, God forbid venture capitalism from executive officers of corporations without governmental constraints find themselves into the marketplace again.
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Yeah, God forbid venture capitalism from executive officers of corporations without governmental constraints find themselves into the marketplace again.
Two different animals. Venture capitalists are an outside entity who risk money on a unproven/untested product in the hopes of generating a hefty profit.
A CEO of a company shouldn't be able to risk stockholder investments on risky ventures. That's not why investors buy securities in a company.
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Two different animals. Venture capitalists are an outside entity who risk money on a unproven/untested product in the hopes of generating a hefty profit.
A CEO of a company shouldn't be able to risk stockholder investments on risky ventures. That's not why investors buy securities in a company.
I am saying they should be using THEIR personal income to reinvest in their business and not using tax subsidies as golden parachutes for their failures.
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I am saying they should be using THEIR personal income to reinvest in their business and not using tax subsidies as golden parachutes for their failures.
Ford is the only privately held auto company. It is my understanding that they pulled their request. GM and Chrysler are publically held companies. Why would a CEO at GM invest his personal money? Where's the potential gain as opposed to the risk?
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Ford is the only privately held auto company. It is my understanding that they pulled their request. GM and Chrysler are publically held companies. Why would a CEO at GM invest his personal money? Where's the potential gain as opposed to the risk?
If they don't see profitability, there isn't a reason. So, why should the U.S. taxpayer, whom takes on those same risk the executives are willing to avoid, be forced by their elected officials, whom are supposed to be serving to increase the prosperity of their constituancy take up the burden of a "doomed business structure" according to the businesses' own leadership?
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I heard on the radio today that nationwide, 1 in 7 jobs is tied to the auto industry. Breaking the union aside, can we afford to let them fail?
A big emphatic no.
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I heard on the radio today that nationwide, 1 in 7 jobs is tied to the auto industry. Breaking the union aside, can we afford to let them fail?
A big emphatic no.
I've always read 1 in 10 jobs are tied to the auto industry. It's way more than just the people at the plants and the UAW.
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What happened yesterday was short-sightedness on everyone. The failure of GM will reverberate throughout and I think most people don't realize the ramifications of what will happen.
What difference does it make if the get bailed out or fail if the underlying problems aren't fixed? Congress is designing the cars anyway and until that stops American's aren't going to be buying anyway.
Between Congress and the UAW there are already a lot of ramifications thrashing the economy. Everything from demanding banks make loans to people who can't pay them back to CAFE standards and regulating CO2 as a pollutant, government is the problem and until it stops being the problem what will a measly $15 billion fix?
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the economy will adjust to whatever happens. If GM folds, the folks who make the parts will have a short business life doing aftermarket stuff for a while. But I can't believe that GM is the only thing they do.
Either way, the economy is going to have a huge impact. It is better that the things causing damage are removed, rather than subsidized.
Were I an auto employee, or dependent on auto employees, I would be terrified now. I can feel for them.
But the deal is, they make a product I don't want, don't like, they get paid twice what I do and have benefits that cost twice more, and why I should do with less so they can have more strikes me as the worst kind of socialistic stupidity.
GM needs to dump the UAW contract that has dozens of featherbedding workers. That is what is good for GM, and that is what is good for America.
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Last year Toyota sold 9.37 million vehicles.
Last year GM sold 9.37 million vehicles.
Last year Toyota MADE 17 billion dollars.
Last year GM LOST 38 billion dollars.
Why should we, as taxpayers, be forced to support a business model that has obviously failed? The Big 3 need to get their shit together, in bankruptcy, and come back with a more competitive business plan......and better cars. Not that it matters that much to me......I'll probably continue to buy U.S.-built Toyotas. The only things I've had to do to my 2002 Tacoma is change the battery and one radiator hose. Wish the same could be said of the American vehicles I've owned after 7 years of use.
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Last year Toyota sold 9.37 million vehicles.
Last year GM sold 9.37 million vehicles.
Last year Toyota MADE 17 billion dollars.
Last year GM LOST 38 billion dollars.
Why should we, as taxpayers, be forced to support a business model that has obviously failed? The Big 3 need to get their shit together, in bankruptcy, and come back with a more competitive business plan......and better cars. Not that it matters that much to me......I'll probably continue to buy U.S.-built Toyotas. The only things I've had to do to my 2002 Tacoma is change the battery and one radiator hose. Wish the same could be said of the American vehicles I've owned after 7 years of use.
Should we allow a foreign corp. to come into our country and lower our standard of living? No.
I would make the asian auto manufactures raise their employees wages to match American auto workers wages. Better yet, if the parent HQ's isn't located in this country, I would slap a tariff on all their products equal to the one Japan puts on America cars.
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God willing, they won't hang that long.
It is time for a serious cutting -- and let the chips fall where they may
I agree. It is well past that time IMO.
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Should we allow a foreign corp. to come into our country and lower our standard of living? No.
I would make the asian auto manufactures raise their employees wages to match American auto workers wages. Better yet, if the parent HQ's isn't located in this country, I would slap a tariff on all their products equal to the one Japan puts on America cars.
They are not lowering our standard of living, they are competing in a capitalist market and beating us at it.
No, we shouldn't FORCE any company to raise wages for any job. Why would do that when the high wages are the reason that the Big 3 are in the shape they're in? If the wages suck that bad, then the employess can find work elsewhere. As far as tariffs, I believe in exact reciprocity. If they tariff ours, we should tariff theirs at the exact same rate; however, Toyota isn't simply bringing cars in. Many of them are made right here in the U.S. My Tacoma and my dad's Sequoia came out of the same factory in Indiana. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are just going to have to lower their wages and make cars that are more desirable and of better quality if they want to compete with Toyota and Honda.
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Should we allow a foreign corp. to come into our country and lower our standard of living? No.
I would make the asian auto manufactures raise their employees wages to match American auto workers wages. Better yet, if the parent HQ's isn't located in this country, I would slap a tariff on all their products equal to the one Japan puts on America cars.
The Japanese pay just a little less than the US companies, $26 per hour vs $28. The UAW has a deal that that prevents layoffs or even shut downs. The US companies have to pay the same wages whether or not they make a single car.
Plus there are all the other parts of the union deal that effectivly raise the hourly cost of an employee to $77 per hour.
Then there are the quality issues.
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They are not lowering our standard of living, they are competing in a capitalist market and beating us at it.
No, we shouldn't FORCE any company to raise wages for any job. Why would do that when the high wages are the reason that the Big 3 are in the shape they're in? If the wages suck that bad, then the employess can find work elsewhere. As far as tariffs, I believe in exact reciprocity. If they tariff ours, we should tariff theirs at the exact same rate; however, Toyota isn't simply bringing cars in. Many of them are made right here in the U.S. My Tacoma and my dad's Sequoia came out of the same factory in Indiana. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are just going to have to lower their wages and make cars that are more desirable and of better quality if they want to compete with Toyota and Honda.
I have a friend who works in the IT department at Nissan. Not only do they have a factory here, they moved their North American HQ down the street.
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The Japanese pay just a little less than the US companies, $26 per hour vs $28. The UAW has a deal that that prevents layoffs or even shut downs. The US companies have to pay the same wages whether or not they make a single car.
I think the big difference in cost is that the Japanese worker pays in taxes what the UAW/Detroit companies are paying for retiree pensions and insurance. When you've got that much of a base to spread the cost around, it's not so bad when you compare it to three or four companies laying out the same money from their own pockets. Honda and Nissan aren't paying for their worker's health insurance at home... the government is, and that's one less cost associated with manufacturing cars.
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The Japanese pay just a little less than the US companies, $26 per hour vs $28. The UAW has a deal that that prevents layoffs or even shut downs. The US companies have to pay the same wages whether or not they make a single car.
Plus there are all the other parts of the union deal that effectivly raise the hourly cost of an employee to $77 per hour.
Then there are the quality issues.
One has to also consider the $$$ value of the benefits. The UAW always glosses that over when discussing what they "pay" their UAW employees. When comparing it to their competitors.
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I think the big difference in cost is that the Japanese worker pays in taxes what the UAW/Detroit companies are paying for retiree pensions and insurance. When you've got that much of a base to spread the cost around, it's not so bad when you compare it to three or four companies laying out the same money from their own pockets. Honda and Nissan aren't paying for their worker's health insurance at home... the government is, and that's one less cost associated with manufacturing cars.
Japanese medical insurance is a very different deal than the comprehensive style in Europe and Canada. Plus I gather from my watching of Japanese video that the care is very different as well. The family is expected to come in and do the laundry on a regular basis over there too. That includes the sheets. Also the Japanese medical insurance has a high deductible and a co pay.
Government pensions everywhere seem to work on the Bismark Tontine model. I am sure Japan is no different. Again, from watching Japanese video, it is considered normal to live with your parents after they retire. Which explains why love hotels are considered acceptable there. Government pension benefits are never generous.
My bank does the health insurance 1/3 to the employee 2/3 to the bank, so can guess the most expensive option, Kaiser, which is closest to the government model, costs the bank $70 per week, or about $1.75 per hour.
So the insurance isn't that big a deal. As a cost, it is huge, but it isn't what is killing the car companies, or providing that big a boon the Japanese.
The big issue is UAW featherbedding. Paying for the no shows. Paying for operating the plant with a full payroll when there are no cars being built.
If the companies could just shut down and re tool, they might survive.
Don't forget one big thing. If the companies get on the government teat, we are paying for the UAW contract too. And the featherbedding.