Author Topic: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?  (Read 20598 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #100 on: May 22, 2012, 12:47:23 PM »
The bottom 50% pay 3.46% of all taxes (your number not mine, but lets run with it).  How is that unfair, when the bottom 50% make 2.5% of all the income and control only 2.5% of all wealth?  The top 50% earn 96% of all income and own 98% of all wealth.
Seems the numbers are in proportion to me.  If you make 96% of all the wealth, why shouldn't you pay about the same in taxes?

The disparity occurs when we get to the top 1% who control 42% of all the wealth (and pay 36% of all taxes) and whose income figures are distorted by the fact that most of their "income" is earned largely in the form of capital gains and dividends, which technically isn't income.....But I'll stop there (for now) with the figures.

Now for the record, I don't support "free lunch" as you call it.  Without arguing if there should or shouldn't be welfare, and making this point since there is, I'd have no problem making welfare beneficiaries report to "work" to sort "widgets" 8hrs a day.

The point would be make them "work" for their assistance.  If people had to work to earn their assistance, they'ed be a lot more likely to come to the realization that if their going to have to work for their money, they might as well do it somewhere they want to work.  For those that report each day on time, can follow direction, and sort tons of widgets there would be lots of employers willing to hire those people straight from that program.

I see assistance as a problem of incentives.  I've highly condensed my thoughts on welfare, and I admit it's not a one size fits all solution, but the point is that it would provide incentive people to look for work on their own or stick the program out and do a good job so employers looking to hire people can hire those that have demonstrated they can show up for work, be on time, and take direction.

In regards to "net gains".  I don't have any figures here in front of me, maybe someone could school me.  How much money did the bottom 30% (the percentage that received money back) of taxpayers receive total?  As far as the income of this group, even with their tax returns they probably control less then 1% of all income in the US.

My guess, and it's just a guess, is that this number, whatever it is, is fairly insignificant when compared to other numbers in our government.  Now that doesn't mean I don't take your point.  The fact that the number may be insignificant, dosen't mean in principle your points not valid, I just want to make the distinction that poor people getting money back from the government is not the reason our economy is in the shitter.

The nations largest company, GE didn't pay any taxes in 2010.

Now I'm not arguing the right or wrong here, there are variables that I'm sure I'm not aware of and for the record, I don't support taxes on companies, but that's another thread....

The point is the corporate tax rate in the US is what, 35%?....  How does the bottom 30-50% get so much hate and money is being doled out to corporations whose CEO salaries are so high.  In the same year ,2010, GE paid no taxes and revived a 3.2B tax benefit GE's CEO made 15.2 million.  That's 1.5 million $10 an hour jobs. or 150 $100,000 jobs.

Now before I get attacked for being anti-capitalist....I think people deserve compensation for a job well done.  Cure cancer..Your worth $15m, invent sustainable nuclear fusion, your worth $15m dollars, but I don't believe for a second that most companies CEO's are worth 10's of millions.  I think to often companies have come to serve a very elite few at the very top. 

I'm going to stop their before the point of this discussion is lost.....Hopefully anyone addressing this, will address the whole thing.

Pure leftist class warfare right there.  Cut and paste from the DNC website.

I linked to what I stated in my post...directly from the IRS.

I want to see where you get your stats for this little gem:

Quote
when the bottom 50% make 2.5% of all the income and control only 2.5% of all wealth?  The top 50% earn 96% of all income and own 98% of all wealth.

Link to your source.

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Offline obumazombie

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #101 on: May 22, 2012, 12:48:39 PM »
^Irrelevant to income tax discussion. Wealth is not income.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #102 on: May 22, 2012, 12:49:58 PM »
This is a total distortion of reality....

No it's not.

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The side that gets the water gets a few dollars back, now they can buy some bread.

If they want more then what they have...work harder.



Quote
The surf and turf side pays a lot and gets a lot.

Because they work to be able to achieve that level.

You want people to get something for nothing....which is typical of todays Liberal mindset...punish people who actually get off their ass and DO something with their lives and reward the people too lazy to get off their couch and even get a job at Burger King.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2012, 12:50:50 PM »
^Irrelevant to income tax discussion. Wealth is not income.

Agreed.  You and I know that...but Liberal class warfare drones can never tell the difference.
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Offline CG6468

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2012, 12:56:41 PM »
UncommonIdiot, get the **** off my thread. Go start your own drivel.
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Offline UncommonSense

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #105 on: May 22, 2012, 12:59:39 PM »
Why do you libs insist on conflating income with wealth ? Remember, it's an INCOME tax, not a wealth tax.

I get your point, but wealth isn't this nebulous concept.  Wealth is used to make wealth and the people at the top pay other people to make money with their money.  That's not "hard work"  that's the advantage of having and leveraging money.

When you have a billion dollars you can borrow 5 billion more.  Make an investment, earn 10%, pay back the loan and interest and have 1.48b dollars.

If you have a billion dollars in unrealized assets and you want to purchase something for say 1/2 billion dollars, do you trade in your assets and pay the 15% capital gains tax?  Nope you take a loan at 2% using your assets as collateral and borrow the money.  You get your 1/2 billion and avoid having to pay tax on it paying an insanely low interest rate.

There is a working class and an investor class.  The latter doesn't necessarily "work hard" (though many worked hard to get there) the way a mechanic, or construction worker works.  Those at the higher end of the investor class can use money to create their own breaks, including influencing local, state and federal governments.

At the tip top we have people like Facebook's Co-Founder that can avoid paying taxes simply by expatriating.  This is an elite that has no loyalty to a country, just to the dollar that give him the freedom to do what he wants.

Offline docstew

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2012, 01:04:50 PM »
This is a total distortion of reality....

The side that gets the water gets a few dollars back, now they can buy some bread.

The surf and turf side pays a lot and gets a lot.

Oh, so the check came to $95, the guy paying forks over a Benjamin and he's coming out ahead cuz he got $5 back?

You're a retard with reading comprehension problems. I suggest you re-read my post. Here it is so you don't have to hunt for it:

Fair?

Here's what's fair. When I go to a restaurant with friends, we each pay for what we order, unless I specifically state it's my treat. The way things are running now, the restaurant is giving the check entirely to the half of the table that only gets a glass of water. Then the other half of the table (the half that got surf and turf) demands that their meals be paid for, but that they don't have the money for it.
[/b]

In case you missed it, I stated that the people who don't get anything but basic services are paying for the whole thing, because the othersgroups demands they do so. Now would you like to answer again whether that is fair?

Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2012, 01:10:04 PM »
I get your point, but wealth isn't this nebulous concept.  Wealth is used to make wealth and the people at the top pay other people to make money with their money.  That's not "hard work"  that's the advantage of having and leveraging money.

How exactly do you think people got and amassed their wealth?  See this is whats wrong with the Liberal mindset...you and your ilk believe that there is a fixed unchanging pile of cash and that the greedy evil capitalists hoard as much as they can and toss out crumbs to the rest of us.

You're never able to comprehend that the more people making money...keeping more of what they make...EXPANDS the pool of cash out there for EVERYONE!

Ever hear the term "a rising tide lifts all boats"?

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When you have a billion dollars you can borrow 5 billion more.  Make an investment, earn 10%, pay back the loan and interest and have 1.48b dollars.

What's wrong with that?  Anyone who's made that kind of fortune should be able to borrow that much.  Why should they be punished for success?

Quote
If you have a billion dollars in unrealized assets and you want to purchase something for say 1/2 billion dollars, do you trade in your assets and pay the 15% capital gains tax?  Nope you take a loan at 2% using your assets as collateral and borrow the money.  You get your 1/2 billion and avoid having to pay tax on it paying an insanely low interest rate.

Still not seeing a problem with this.

Quote
There is a working class and an investor class.  The latter doesn't necessarily "work hard" (though many worked hard to get there) the way a mechanic, or construction worker works.  Those at the higher end of the investor class can use money to create their own breaks, including influencing local, state and federal governments.

Again with the class warfare strait out of the Book of Marx.

EVERYONE in this country has every opportunity to be as successful or as inconsequential in this country as they choose.

Quote
At the tip top we have people like Facebook's Co-Founder that can avoid paying taxes simply by expatriating.  This is an elite that has no loyalty to a country, just to the dollar that give him the freedom to do what he wants.

Quick question...what country has the highest corporate tax rate in the world...and what is it?
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #108 on: May 22, 2012, 01:19:34 PM »
Wealth is used to make wealth

Hence the expression, "making money."  You think the system that created that would be better off destroyed.  Capitalism has created more upward mobility than any other economic system in history.  Can you dispute that fact?  I'm guessing you can't.

Or, you can be like me and most of the people I know who got to their station in life through (gasp!  the horror!) hard work.  Yeah, you heard me.  Equal opportunity only matters when you actually USE that opportunity to improve your lot.  But silly liberals like you seem to forget that equal opportunity does NOT, has never, will ever, guarantee equal RESULTS.  Some people work and don't get as lucky or rich.  Such is life.  I've busted my ass and done well, although I'll never be a millionaire short of winning the Powerball.  Shit happens.

So, your choice becomes this--do you bemoan your station in life and whine about how "unfair" it is and expect someone to support you, or do you get off your ass, dust yourself off, and try again?

If you fall into the latter category, good for you.  If you fall into the former, tough shit.
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #109 on: May 22, 2012, 01:21:42 PM »
Oh, so the check came to $95, the guy paying forks over a Benjamin and he's coming out ahead cuz he got $5 back?

I'll go even further, Doc.  The check is coming to $95, plus tax, plus tip, call it $125, and they expect the "rich" half at the table to kick in $150 so the other three get to eat and get a few bucks back on top of it.

This is called the laughingly-labeled "Earned Income Credit", of which exactly ZERO words apply.  It's not earned, it's not for those with income, and it's not a credit, it's a gimme.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #110 on: May 22, 2012, 01:56:54 PM »
Well, Uncommon?

You asked me the question, but I think these gents have done very nicely with the response.

I can offer only this:

If you want to reduce ANYTHING in life (certain exceptions notwithstanding) -- tax it.

So you want more jobs? Go ahead and tax those who create jobs and see how many of those jobs you'll get.

You want more income? Create your own opportunity, take your own risks, and reap the benefits -- or the failures.

This is a country of OPPORTUNITY for risks and failures alike. You don't risk, you don't gain -- or gain little.

There's a reason that entrepreneurs generally are big-bucks guys 'n gals.

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Offline Danglars

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #111 on: May 22, 2012, 02:18:33 PM »
I don't think this was addressed earlier in the thread, and it wasn't part of the choices, but the matter of FICA should be addressed--it's a big enough tax, and to an important enough purpose.

I'd exempt the first $30,000 earned by anyone from FICA, both employee and employer contribution--BUT, I'd remove the absurd cap at $100,000. This is not a soak the rich thing--it's simply that I can see no reason to exempt income of any kind at the higher levels, OR, at this point, if we want social security to remain solvent, non-earned income, ie, dividends, interest, and capital gains. I'd apply FICA to those as well, although I'd also drastically reduce the baseline capital gains tax--I'd eliminate the distinction between short-term and long-term capital gains, retain the 5% limit on capital gains of all kinds for low-income earners, but reduce cap gains to 8% for everyone else.

Offline NHSparky

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2012, 02:20:07 PM »
I don't think this was addressed earlier in the thread, and it wasn't part of the choices, but the matter of FICA should be addressed--it's a big enough tax, and to an important enough purpose.

I'd exempt the first $30,000 earned by anyone from FICA, both employee and employer contribution--BUT, I'd remove the absurd cap at $100,000. This is not a soak the rich thing--it's simply that I can see no reason to exempt income of any kind at the higher levels, OR, at this point, if we want social security to remain solvent, non-earned income, ie, dividends, interest, and capital gains. I'd apply FICA to those as well, although I'd also drastically reduce the baseline capital gains tax--I'd eliminate the distinction between short-term and long-term capital gains, retain the 5% limit on capital gains of all kinds for low-income earners, but reduce cap gains to 8% for everyone else.

Why soak the rich on a system where they'll likely never see a dime, particularly if SS becomes "means-tested?"  And no, I don't think it'll be around in its current form in 20-25 years when I retire.
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Offline UncommonSense

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2012, 02:29:27 PM »
Your going to have to give me a little while to get to all of this, but I will respond.  You're all giving me quite a bit of homework.

Offline Danglars

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2012, 02:49:04 PM »
Why soak the rich on a system where they'll likely never see a dime, particularly if SS becomes "means-tested?"  And no, I don't think it'll be around in its current form in 20-25 years when I retire.

Well, we don't necessarily see personal benefit for all sorts of things our tax money goes to. But as I said, I wouldn't call it soaking the rich at all, although I did include my thinking on the matter because I did expect something of that reaction. I do NOT think the rich and very rich underpay! That's lib-stuff and I want no part of it. But as long as we're going to have taxation, why should great, giant chunks of money be exempt from FICA? Especially if we do want to keep SS solvent? And it isn't as if the wealthiest Americans would even notice it, really--and it sure wouldn't impact their personal retirements, nor should it.

But earned income over $100,000 is exempt from FICA. I can see no reason earned income above a certain level should be exempt from a particular tax. Frankly, I can see no reason unearned income should be exempt.


I am unquestionably in favor of deeper, across-the-board income tax cuts, far deeper than the Bush tax cuts--I'm thinking 3 brackets,: 8%, 14%, and 20%.



And the hideous death tax must be eliminated. That's just plain revolting, and wrong. And it's double taxation. no matter what word games tax-and-spenders/Obama-type communists (I won't even bother calling him a socialist--he's a communist) want to play.

Offline Danglars

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2012, 02:51:14 PM »
Also, I did want to slash the base capital gains tax significantly--nearly in half.

Offline Eupher

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2012, 02:52:53 PM »
I agree it's the time to bring up FICA.

A system that was never intended to provide the entitlements it does today.

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Offline obumazombie

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2012, 08:40:33 PM »
The reason for the 100k exemption on the front end, is benefits on the back end will be proportionally restricted.
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Offline indago

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #118 on: May 23, 2012, 04:41:33 AM »
You go on and on about the income tax being an "indirect excise tax" and quote decisions from the 1800's to support your theory.

Not a theory: facts, taken from our historical records.

Offline indago

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #119 on: May 23, 2012, 05:00:12 AM »
Quote
Lately, there is a lot of information, including that from a few attorneys, arguing that the personal income tax is an excise tax.  This is not correct, nor is this a legitimate argument, and this short paper is provided to explain why the personal income tax is not properly recognized as an excise, but as a tariff.


Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #120 on: May 23, 2012, 05:02:45 AM »




Cute picture.  :whatever:

Now care to show where what I posted is wrong?
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Offline indago

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #121 on: May 23, 2012, 05:45:01 AM »
Cute picture. Now care to show where what I posted is wrong?

I already have:

POST 1

POST 2

Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #122 on: May 23, 2012, 05:48:27 AM »
I already have:

POST 1

POST 2

And I replied with black letter law cases that showd your 19th century references to be invalid.

It's not nor has the Income tax ever been an excise tax.

It was very clearly defined for you.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #123 on: May 23, 2012, 05:52:17 AM »
Since you seem to be a bit of a slow blinker on this issue let me repost the facts...


The personal income tax is not an excise tax. 

 

Lately, there is a lot of information, including that from a few attorneys, arguing that the personal income tax is an excise tax.  This is not correct, nor is this a legitimate argument, and this short paper is provided to explain why the personal income tax is not properly recognized as an excise, but as a tariff.

 

First, both tariffs (imposts) and excises are indirect taxes under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution of the United States, which states:

 

“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;”

 

Blacks law dictionary tells us that a tariff is a tax, or schedule of rates for a tax, imposed on foreign goods being imported into the country, or imposed on foreign activity occurring within the United States (America, – including the fifty states). 

 

The Constitution, in Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 3-5, gives the federal government absolute jurisdiction over all foreign matters, affairs, and agreements with foreign nations, and over foreign persons in the U.S.   This is done so that the fifty states may present one consistent face to the world to deal with in trading with the United States, rather than having to keep track of fifty different agreements, depending upon which state they were doing business in.  This jurisdiction over foreign affairs gives the federal government the power to tax both imports into, and the foreign activity of foreign nations and persons in, the United States.

 

An excise tax, on the other hand, as stated by the Supreme Court in Flint v. Stone Tracy Co., 220 U.S. 107, 31 S.Ct. 342, 349 (1911), are:

 

"Excises are taxes laid upon:

(1.)                 the manufacture, sale or consumption of commodities within the country,

(2.)                 upon licenses to pursue certain occupations, and

(3.)                 upon corporate privileges;”

 

In further identifying and describing the nature of an excise tax, the court held:

 

“.. the requirement to pay such taxes involves the exercise of the privilege and if business is not done in the manner described no tax is payable ... it is the privilege which is the subject of the tax and not the mere buying, selling or handling of goods.”
Flint, supra, at 151 -152

 

So we see that excise taxes are taxes on taxable activities involving commodities, the possession of a license (like ATF licenses), and corporate privileges.   Excise taxes are not taxes on general occupations (or on the work of citizens conducted by constitutional right), rather than on work conducted under a federal license or corporate banner, or involving commodities.   

 

Some of the confusion on this issue of  “Is it an excise or a tariff ?” comes from the Supreme Court itself.  This is because the Court appears in the Stanton decision in 1913, where the court is testing the legitimacy of taxing the income of a mining corporation derived from its mining activities, to uphold the CORPORATE part of the income tax provisions of the tested legislation as an indirect excise.  Also, in the Brushaber v. Union Pac. R.R. Co., 240 U.S. 1, 36 S.Ct. 236 (1916), the court stated,

 

"Moreover in addition the conclusion reached in the Pollock Case did not in any degree involve holding that income taxes generically and necessarily came within the class of direct taxes on property, but on the contrary recognized the fact that taxation on income was in its nature an excise entitled to be enforced as such unless and until it was concluded that to enforce it would amount to accomplishing the result which the requirement as to apportionment of direct taxation was adopted to prevent, in which case the duty would arise to disregard form and consider substance alone and hence subject the tax to the regulation as to apportionment which otherwise as an excise would not apply to it."  Brushaber, supra, at 16-17.



http://www.tax-freedom.com/NotAnExcise.htm
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Offline indago

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #124 on: May 23, 2012, 06:39:30 AM »
Since you seem to be a bit of a slow blinker on this issue let me repost the facts...

The personal income tax is not an excise tax.

I'm not denying that the toady class has morphed the federal income tax into what it is today.  "The toady class just can't help themselves; it is their nature."  They are a new breed:  Gay Masochist!  Just LUV takin' it in the ass!

BOHICA

No lube...

and no reacharound