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Offline Freeper

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How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« on: August 28, 2009, 12:40:16 PM »
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wurzel  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Fri Aug-28-09 01:29 PM
Original message
How to sell national health care to the right wing.
   
Edited on Fri Aug-28-09 01:33 PM by wurzel
With a history lesson:

Putting aside "who started it"!

In 1914 Germany was at war with Europe and its empires. It beat them to a standstill. Only the entrance of the Americans saved the Europeans and defeated the Germans.

Twenty years later the Germans did exactly the same thing over again. And again, only the intervention of America saved Europe.

How did the Germans do it? In 1890 Bismark instituted a German national education and national health care system. This meant that when they went to war the Germans had an educated and healthy population to fight that war.

Britain, on the other hand, had to recruit from a poverty stricken and uneducated population that had every disease (rickets, tuberculosis, typhoid etc) known to man. It could not in fact field an effective army. (Remember they had to walk across No-man's land at the Somme? And got mown down!. That is because they were not fit enough to run.)

Britain finally learned its lesson and instituted national health care after WW11. Incidentally that is why Pres. Truman also wanted a national health care system in the USA after WW11.

A country without an educated and healthy population cannot defend itself. It is a matter of national security and should be part of the defense budget.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6411083

Yeah you sold me  :whatever:

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Greyhound  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Fri Aug-28-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why bother? They have made it crystal clear that they will not support it.
   
Never ever under any circumstances.

There is no way to change a mind that is determined not to change.
:shrug:

We won't support it because the plan sucks plain and simple.
No amount of (not so) clever slogans and little stories will change what it is in the bill.
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 12:41:24 PM »
You mean nationalized healthcare will result in fewer leeches on the system; i.e., fewer DUmmies?

Dammnit--decisions, decisions....
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Offline Lord Undies

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 12:43:05 PM »
a.  LETS GET THE LEFT TO HATE SOCIALISM!!!!11111

B.  Why bother? They have made it crystal clear that they will forever support it.
   
Always & forever under every circumstance.

There is no way to change a mind that is determined not to change.
:shrug:
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Offline Chris_

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 12:47:26 PM »
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wurzel  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Fri Aug-28-09 01:29 PM
Original message
How to sell national health care to the right wing.
  
Edited on Fri Aug-28-09 01:33 PM by wurzel
With a history lesson:

Putting aside "who started it"!

In 1914 Germany was at war with Europe and its empires. It beat them to a standstill. Only the entrance of the Americans saved the Europeans and defeated the Germans.

Twenty years later the Germans did exactly the same thing over again. And again, only the intervention of America saved Europe.

How did the Germans do it? In 1890 Bismark instituted a German national education and national health care system. This meant that when they went to war the Germans had an educated and healthy population to fight that war.

Britain, on the other hand, had to recruit from a poverty stricken and uneducated population that had every disease (rickets, tuberculosis, typhoid etc) known to man. It could not in fact field an effective army. (Remember they had to walk across No-man's land at the Somme? And got mown down!. That is because they were not fit enough to run.)

Britain finally learned its lesson and instituted national health care after WW11. Incidentally that is why Pres. Truman also wanted a national health care system in the USA after WW11.

A country without an educated and healthy population cannot defend itself. It is a matter of national security and should be part of the defense budget.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the U.S. without a national health care system was the main player responsible for the defeat of a socialist country with a national health care system. This happened not once, but twice.

So the free country twice beat the socialist country with health care.

Explain to me again why this would make conservatives want to become a socialist country with a national health care system.
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 12:55:29 PM »
Quote from:
wurzel

A country without an educated and healthy population cannot defend itself.

Which is why Germany won WW1 and WW2.

What a great story!!

.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 01:04:19 PM by USA4ME »
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Offline dutch508

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 12:59:39 PM »
Lack of logical reasoning.

In WWI the Germans were fought to a standstill in the west. The next few years the majority of the youth from four nations was killed (Germany, France, Russia, and England). Russia crumbled from with-in due to a revolutiona nd pulled out of the war, alas too late for Germany to move the millions of troops to the west. America provided enough manpower to halt any further advances in the west by germany. Germany fell apart due to economic and social issues in 1918 and sued for peace.

Russia fought a civil war and the Soviets came out on top, but it would be 20 years before they returned as a major player. The Germans fought a civil war too, not to the extent of the Russians, but along the same lines (Socialists/communists vs royalists/nationalists) however, the centralists took over just in time for the depression to hit. The nationalists/royalists joined forces and barely took control of Germany in the late 20s early 30s. The National Socialists barely took power in 1936.

However- The OP suggests because the Germans had National Healthcare and National Education in the 1890s, they almost won WWI. The English lost men at the Somme because they did not. I am assuming the OP meant the Somme 1918 and not 1916. The Maxim had more to do with losses than education.

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Offline mamacags

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 01:35:48 PM »
The stupid in that thread screamed so loudly that my eardrums are bleeding. :bawl:
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 02:04:47 PM »
How about we check 'the Real Cuba' dot com and see Cuban "free" healthcarfe for ourselves
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 02:48:20 PM »
Oh.


My.


God.



I want to find the breeder of such ignorance and slap it hard. 



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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 03:01:01 PM »
What would get me to support the bill?  Something like this:
 
A)  Limit the scope of it to providing a Medicare/Medicaid type medical coverage for people who can prove they have been rejected by commercial insurers due to expensive treatments, pre-existing conditions, etc. - the uninsured who want to be covered but actually are failed by the current system.  Don't provide it free, but means-test it, and charge proportionally (Which does mean the poor would get it cheap or free, but the really poor are on Medicaid already).  Levy the rest of the cost across the insurable more or less like high-risk pool auto insurance is handled now (And the insured are currently paying the freight anyway, just in a less-structured and less-planned way), and leave everyone else the Hell alone;

B)  Include serious tort reform, because without that the whole damn' thing is doomed to a rising cost spiral, no matter whether the public or private sector is providing the insurance;

C)  Stop.   
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Offline ReaganForRushmore

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 03:03:14 PM »
Quote from: USA4ME on August 28, 2009, 12:55:29 PM
Which is why Germany won WW1 and WW2.

What a great story!!

.

Germany won by bombing Pearl Harbor :rotf:
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Offline jukin

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 03:13:01 PM »
Lord help us if the fascists of the left do to our health care what they have done to our education system.
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Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2009, 03:14:29 PM »
Quote from: jukin on August 28, 2009, 03:13:01 PM
Lord help us if the fascists of the left do to our health care what they have done to our education system.

Except at the University of Michigan, they keep medical school affirmative action pretty quiet.
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Offline dutch508

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2009, 03:16:23 PM »
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The Magistrate  (1000+ posts)        Fri Aug-28-09 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. That Will Not Work, Sir
 Edited on Fri Aug-28-09 01:38 PM by The Magistrate
People with even elementary knowledge of the Great War will tear it to ribbons.

England fielded a very effective army over the course of the Great War. The 'Kitchener Mob' expended at the Somme was an all volunteer force, mostly comprised of men well above the lowest ranks of the proletariat, and after a year's worth of training were in excellent physical shape. The method of approach in the opening hours of the Somme, in close line formation at the walk, was dictated by two factors: first, the inexperience of the soldiers in combat, which in the usual military understanding dictates keeping men near their officers and sergeants, and second, the distance between the lines which had to be crossed in full pack, since re-supply of advancing forces was known to be extremely problematic at the time, and the plan was for an extended advance through what was anticipated to be a devastated position that would offer little resistance. That last, of course, proved not to be the case, and the result was a field day for machine-gunners.


He is talking about the Somme, 1916, BTW.

Quote
wurzel (1000+ posts)      Fri Aug-28-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Bullshit, Sir.
 Britain never had an "effective" army. Unless it was using machine guns against spears. I don't know what you mean by "men above the lowest ranks of the proletariat". Unless you mean they were shop assistants. And they were as unhealthy and underweight as everyone else. The Germans were no more "experienced in combat" than the British, but there is no record of them walking into machine guns. The reason men were kept so close to officers is the same reason officers had hand guns.


If you watch the real movies of the time, you will see the company grade officers in the British Army LED their men from the front. They did not drive them forward from the rear. That is one of the reasons the casualties of officers was so high.

On an aside: JRR Tolkien was a young officer during the Great War and started writing his great work, The Lord of the Rings, in the trenches. Tolkien's WWI combat service was very brief. He went to France in early June of 1915, first saw combat in mid-July, developed trench fever in late October and was shipped back to England in early November of the same year.


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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 03:35:24 PM »
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wurzel (1000+ posts)      Fri Aug-28-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Bullshit, Sir.
 Britain never had an "effective" army. Unless it was using machine guns against spears. I don't know what you mean by "men above the lowest ranks of the proletariat". Unless you mean they were shop assistants. And they were as unhealthy and underweight as everyone else. The Germans were no more "experienced in combat" than the British, but there is no record of them walking into machine guns. The reason men were kept so close to officers is the same reason officers had hand guns.

You're an idiot, wurzel, and a poorly-read one at that.  German lives were squandered as wantonly as English ones during the advance in 1914, and into 1915.  The German leadership proved to be a somewhat quicker study than the French and British, for reasons totally unrelated to their health care or public education systems.
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Offline Vagabond

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2009, 04:07:57 PM »
The military or history channel had a great forensic show about the Somme in 1916.  It noted all sorts of things like the disparities between losses in units. 

Advancing in a line abreast formation with full kit at a walk was pure suicide against the maxin gun, which had been British infantry doctrine at the time.  The only way to survive was dispersing the men out with only rifle and ammo loads and charging full speed across the battlefield, while still creating ugly casualty levels that was more survivable.

The British also thought using shells that explode on impact were more effective against barbed wire than shells fused to explode in the air were, the reverse was true.  The British also were having problems with the fuses on their shells, since they had not fought a major land campaign since Napoleon.  The germans had last fought and won a major land campaign against France in the 1870s.
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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 05:12:28 PM »
Quote from: Vagabond on August 28, 2009, 04:07:57 PM
The Germans had last fought and won a major land campaign against France in the 1870s.

Hasn't everybody beaten the Fwench at least once?
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Offline jukin

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 08:03:26 PM »
I'll sum this up with;

3+2=yellow.
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Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2009, 08:23:18 PM »
Quote from: BlueStateSaint on August 28, 2009, 05:12:28 PM
Hasn't everybody beaten the Fwench at least once?

They've never lost a war to Kenya.
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Offline crockspot

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2009, 08:42:59 PM »
DU: Obama's Brain Trust

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Offline thundley4

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2009, 08:46:05 PM »
Quote from: crockspot on August 28, 2009, 08:42:59 PM
DU: Obama's Brain Trust



You give them to much credit.  The real brain trust at the DUmp.

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Offline whiteguyPI

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2009, 12:21:43 AM »
A great time for me to recommend the book I'm currently reading. "The Guns of August" by Barbara W. Tuchman. An in-depth examination of the political and military events leading up to and thru the first month of WW I. A great read for any of my fellow cavers. Enjoy!
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Offline Toastedturningtidelegs

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2009, 08:07:28 AM »
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wurzel  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Fri Aug-28-09 01:29 PM
Original message
How to sell national health care to the right wing.
   
Edited on Fri Aug-28-09 01:33 PM by wurzel
With a history lesson:

Putting aside "who started it"!

In 1914 Germany was at war with Europe and its empires. It beat them to a standstill. Only the entrance of the Americans saved the Europeans and defeated the Germans.

Twenty years later the Germans did exactly the same thing over again. And again, only the intervention of America saved Europe.

How did the Germans do it? In 1890 Bismark instituted a German national education and national health care system. This meant that when they went to war the Germans had an educated and healthy population to fight that war.

Britain, on the other hand, had to recruit from a poverty stricken and uneducated population that had every disease (rickets, tuberculosis, typhoid etc) known to man. It could not in fact field an effective army. (Remember they had to walk across No-man's land at the Somme? And got mown down!. That is because they were not fit enough to run.)

Britain finally learned its lesson and instituted national health care after WW11. Incidentally that is why Pres. Truman also wanted a national health care system in the USA after WW11.

A country without an educated and healthy population cannot defend itself. It is a matter of national security and should be part of the defense budget.

Dammit! How in the hell did I miss 9 World Wars! :o :-)
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2009, 08:38:54 AM »
Quote from: whiteguyPI on August 29, 2009, 12:21:43 AM
A great time for me to recommend the book I'm currently reading. "The Guns of August" by Barbara W. Tuchman. An in-depth examination of the political and military events leading up to and thru the first month of WW I. A great read for any of my fellow cavers. Enjoy!

Although it's written from a rather different perspective, after reading that you would probably like "August 1914" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn.
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Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: How to sell national health care to the right wing.
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2009, 11:37:58 AM »
The goofy bullshit in DUmmy wurzel's post is probably the way NEA teachers present history, except for when their students learn about how the Americans employed genocide.

They hate NCLB, so it must be a good idea.

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