How I know armed guards in public buildings won't work

[dutch508]

Star Member JohnnyRingo (12,671 posts) https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211340303


How I know armed guards in public buildings won't work

Donald Trump said that if there was an armed guard in that synagogue he would have shot the gunman and it would be over. Donald Trump watches too many movies.

A sidearm is no match for an assault rifle, and pulling one on such an assailant is a sure way to make one's self the next target. Trump must think a guard can draw, fire, and watch as the gunman spins twice and hits the ground with only enough remaining breath to utter a memorable quote before going limp.

In reality, such a determined killer will take several body shots while returning hi-power flesh tearing rounds in fast succession. No one but the bravest wants to be a dead hero. Most hourly security guards would wisely follow the others running to safety. I know I would.

In the case of Pittsburgh, four trained SWAT team members took wounds from the gunman before he finally succumbed (probably out of ammo). A security guard with a pistol could only serve as a bullet magnet while others fled. [so. you are saying he would have saved lives...]

In Denver where the gunman entered through the back door dressed as The Joker, it was Colorado. I'm sure there were concealed guns in that theater, but not one person tried to shoot back. Not one. [it was a gun free zone in a urban city noted for it's liberal policies and public. Doubt there was a CC permit within 50 miles]

Maybe Trump meant churches should have a belt fed M30 mounted machine gun nest behind the alter trained on the pews. That might deter a mass shooting, but...

As an aside Trump also cited "bringing back the death penalty" as a sure way to stop these suicidal killers. Pennsylvania does have capital punishment, so what went wrong?

Dumbass attaches almost mythical powers to the shooters but thinks all the armed security would suck at shooting back and cowards to boot. Makes as much sense as anything else the DUmpmonkiez say, really...

if someone comes in shooting and then gets shot at back, I an gar-un-tee you they are gonna duck and try to get away from the gunfire... trust me on that one.

Star Member Blue_true (9,010 posts)

2. One time a survivor of a mass shooting described what the sounds of the firing from an assault weapon seemed like. He said that first it freezes your mind, like a deer in headlights. If a person is not dead from freezing, the survivor said that when the flee reflex returns, there is no sense of where to run to since the sound is echoing everywhere. Finally the survivor said that he just ran and hoped that he was not running into the person firing. I honestly have no idea of what I would do in a mass shooting, likely I would act like the survivor of one and maybe I would come out of it alive.

That's why you train, DUmbasses. A brand new private in the military is likely to freeze up the first time in combat- but you train hard and are ready. You don't just hand someone a sidearm and tell them to guard the bank.

Furthermore- you argue a pistol can't defeat a rifle..
not true- you just have to know how to shoot is all... better yet, arm your security personnel with AR-15s...

[Texacon]

Yet they cheer on ‘freedom’ fighters in places like Afghanistan and Syria, who are fighting fighter jets with AK’s. Guess that’s different, huh?

Bottom line; if I’m armed I have a much higher success rate of actually returning fire than if I’m not armed. Seems logical to me, but maybe my math is off ...

KC

[DUmpDiver]

I wonder why shooters target places where they know there won't be armed guards or armed citizens.

[Airwolf]

Gee I seemed to do ok as an armed guard at my work place when some asshat decided to shoot his daughters ex boyfriend in the back with a .40 cal Glock one night. Despite running into each other and finding ourselves within 30 feet of each other just after the shooting I , with the help of one of the night managers got the guy on the ground and held him there till the cops got there.

[Movie buff- The Sequel]

Never mind that an armed security guard managed to stop Matthew Murray (The 2007 Denver church shooter) by herself.
Oh, wait, I forgot: The DUmmies portrayed Murray as a brave and noble hero for it, portrayed the churchgoers he targeted as evil fundies who must have all deserved to die, and portrayed the guard in question as a bloodthirsty lunatic for it, so they'd say that doesn't count.

[Texacon]

Gee I seemed to do ok as an armed guard at my work place when some asshat decided to shoot his daughters ex boyfriend in the back with a .40 cal Glock one night. Despite running into each other and finding ourselves within 30 feet of each other just after the shooting I , with the help of one of the night managers got the guy on the ground and held him there till the cops got there.

I remember when you posted about that.

The thing is there are far more defensive uses of guns every year than there are killings.  You don't hear about it because usually it is someone simply brandishing and stopping anything from escalating, and we all know the DUpipo will never acknowledge this. 

The next thing they always do after a shooting is demonize all gun owners, but God help you if you do that to any of their sacred cows.  Illegal immigrant kills someone?  Hell, go tell DUpipo you want all illegal immigrants held responsible for that crime and see how far that gets you.

KC

[67 Rover]

Star Member JohnnyRingo (12,671 posts) https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211340303


How I know armed guards in public buildings won't work

Donald Trump said that if there was an armed guard in that synagogue he would have shot the gunman and it would be over. Donald Trump watches too many movies.

A sidearm is no match for an assault rifle, and pulling one on such an assailant is a sure way to make one's self the next target. Trump must think a guard can draw, fire, and watch as the gunman spins twice and hits the ground with only enough remaining breath to utter a memorable quote before going limp.

In reality, such a determined killer will take several body shots while returning hi-power flesh tearing rounds in fast succession. No one but the bravest wants to be a dead hero. Most hourly security guards would wisely follow the others running to safety. I know I would.

In the case of Pittsburgh, four trained SWAT team members took wounds from the gunman before he finally succumbed (probably out of ammo). A security guard with a pistol could only serve as a bullet magnet while others fled. [so. you are saying he would have saved lives...]

In Denver where the gunman entered through the back door dressed as The Joker, it was Colorado. I'm sure there were concealed guns in that theater, but not one person tried to shoot back. Not one. [it was a gun free zone in a urban city noted for it's liberal policies and public. Doubt there was a CC permit within 50 miles]

Maybe Trump meant churches should have a belt fed M30 mounted machine gun nest behind the alter trained on the pews. That might deter a mass shooting, but...

As an aside Trump also cited "bringing back the death penalty" as a sure way to stop these suicidal killers. Pennsylvania does have capital punishment, so what went wrong?

The moment a citizen starts returning fire the assailants plans go out the window immediately and now he is in a life or death struggle.

Tell me there was one member of that congregation that would not have wanted to have a gun at that moment.

[Texacon]

The moment a citizen starts returning fire the assailants plans go out the window immediately and now he is in a life or death struggle.

Tell me there was one member of that congregation that would not have wanted to have a gun at that moment.

What's really sad is most of them may have actually supported policies that would prevent them or others from being able to defend themselves.  I doubt the politics of it would ever run through your mind at a time like that, but I can definitely see someone trying to find cover and wishing they had a weapon to at least try to fight off the attacker.  When you're cornered you don't have much option to flee so the fight instinct has to kick in.

KC

[67 Rover]

What's really sad is most of them may have actually supported policies that would prevent them or others from being able to defend themselves.  I doubt the politics of it would ever run through your mind at a time like that, but I can definitely see someone trying to find cover and wishing they had a weapon to at least try to fight off the attacker.  When you're cornered you don't have much option to flee so the fight instinct has to kick in.

KC

Maybe the synagogue should have supplied a bucket of rocks or something.

[SVPete]

New Life Church, Colorado Springs, 12/9/2007:

At about 1:00 p.m. MST (20:00 UTC), more than thirty minutes after the 11:00 a.m. sermon had ended at New Life Church, Murray opened fire in the church parking lot, shooting at the Works family as they entered their vehicle, causing the worst fatal consequences at New Life Church that day: the deaths of two of the Works' family's four daughters: Stephanie Works, 18, and Rachel Works, 16, as well as the near-death of their father, David Works, who was shot multiple times.

Church member and bystander Judy Purcell was wounded in the shoulder when attempting to enter her vehicle; she survived her injuries. Murray directed gunfire towards other vehicles during his shooting spree within the New Life Church parking lot, including narrowly missing church patron Christina Wilke after riddling her vehicle with a volley of bullets from his semi-automatic rifle, missing Wilke with his gunfire by approximately four inches. Murray then entered the building's main foyer where he wounded Larry Bourbonnais, as Bourbonnais was attempting to yell at Murray distract Murray from hurting others; Bourbonnais was minorly wounded in the forearm with shrapnel. At this point, church member Jeanne Assam, a private security guard working for New Life Church, who was herself a former Minneapolis Police Department law enforcement officer, opened fire upon Murray. The incident was fully witnessed by Larry Bourbonnais, who later repeatedly conveyed to national news interests that, "It was the bravest thing I've ever seen." Assam later gave her testimony publicly, stating that she felt that she was spiritually called to serve on the security team for the church that morning, and that she had been personally fasting and praying in preparation due to a supernatural "calling from God." While the official coroner's report states that Murray subsequently killed himself, some reports indicate that Assam suspects that she was the one who potentially administered the fatal wound upon Murray. The police themselves have not stated on-record whom they believe fired the fatal shot upon Murray.

Regardless of whether Jeanne Assam's was the fatal shot or Murray finished himself off, she stopped a mass shooting in progress and saved lives.

AND NOW, THE PITTSBURGH SYNAGOGUE SHOOTINGS

Watching the interview of the synagogue’s immediate past president on FOX News, I was disheartened to learn that the synagogue had no security for Shabbat services. At Temple of Aaron in St. Paul, which I take it draws a comparable or smaller crowd than Tree of Life at Shabbat services, we have had regular police presence for the past several years. Indeed, I became friends with Officer Lou Ferraro — this year’s St. Paul Police Officer of the year — pausing to thank him for working overtime and to kibbitz on Saturday mornings when I attended services.

Incidents such as this shooting at Tree of Life synagogue or that Baptist church in Texas or that Sikh temple in Wisconsin were almost unthinkable as recently as 20 years ago, but many churches have responded by having security teams, some of whose members are carrying concealed. From Scott Johnson's article, above, it appears that some cities' PDs are stationing on-duty at likely targets (a Jewish temple/synagogue in the Twin Cities in MN,need I say more?).

Maybe when politicians stop politicizing shootings, maybe when politicians stop demonizing religious people and faiths, maybe when politicians summon the courage to have police "sweat the small stuff" and get those who commit "big stuff" off the streets, maybe when politicians summon the courage to get known crazies out of circulation security teams will become unnecessary at churches, synagogues, temples and mosques. I won't be holding my breath anticipating all that happening.

[DumbAss Tanker]

ARs aren't exactly known for putting people completely down with one shot, in fact they're not as good at it as a pistol with a manstopping load.  As far as relative advantage, inside a building that's entirely a matter of who has the drop on who, not the weapon.

[Texacon]

Maybe when politicians stop politicizing shootings, maybe when politicians stop demonizing religious people and faiths, maybe when politicians summon the courage to have police "sweat the small stuff" and get those who commit "big stuff" off the streets, maybe when politicians summon the courage to get known crazies out of circulation security teams will become unnecessary at churches, synagogues, temples and mosques. I won't be holding my breath anticipating all that happening.

Here's what really pisses me off.  You can watch any 'cop' show you want, I mean the reality ones like Cops or Live PD, and you will see them catch someone with a firearm who is a FELON, and they let them go.  I've even seen it on some of the game warden shows that are on now.

These people should be arrested!  It is the law, and it is one that is overlooked time and again.  What in the hell is going on?!  If you're a felon you know you aren't supposed to have access to any firearms, you get caught, you go to jail.  It is that simple.

Our firearms laws are flaunted daily and all the left wants to scream about is more firearm restrictions.  Nope.  Not until you start prosecuting those who lie on the federal form to purchase or you start arresting felons with firearms they shouldn't have.

Saw a story about a reporter who was going to show how easy it was to purchase a firearm and he was denied because he lied on the federal form.  What happened to him?  Absolutely nothing.  They should have arrested his ass and made a documentary about his deceit and what it can cost you.

KC

[hillneck]

I would rather have any weapon than none at all.  A properly practiced and trained individual with a pistol is a very effective guard.  The DUmmies, as usual, speaking about things they have no ideal about.

[Zathras]

Reading Johnny's drivel you can tell just how much of an idiot he is when it comes to firearms. Two things that stood out are:

1. Someone needs to tell him that the AR in AR-15 does not stand for Assault Rifle.
2. A belt fed M30 MG? What is it? One half of a M-60 GPMG? Sorry DUmbass, the "belt fed M-30 machine gun", much like everything else you believe in, is just a figment of your drug addled brain.

[SVPete]

Star Member JohnnyRingo (12,671 posts) https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211340303
...
... Donald Trump watches too many movies.

Who watches too many movies?

[ChuckJ]

Star Member Blue_true (9,010 posts)

2. One time a survivor of a mass shooting described what the sounds of the firing from an assault weapon seemed like. He said that first it freezes your mind, like a deer in headlights. If a person is not dead from freezing, the survivor said that when the flee reflex returns, there is no sense of where to run to since the sound is echoing everywhere. Finally the survivor said that he just ran and hoped that he was not running into the person firing. I honestly have no idea of what I would do in a mass shooting, likely I would act like the survivor of one and maybe I would come out of it alive.

I realize that everyone is different but here's my story. I was walking some woods that were strange to me looking over a piece of property for someone. It was 10 or more acres. I was walking a fire break. When I got to the very back of the property I came to a clearing. I was still standing in the fire break, but in the clearing, about 50' or so from me, I saw a moonshine still with smoke still coming from the ashes. Now THAT caused me to freeze but just for a second. As I stood in the fire break looking at the still a rifle shot rang out. I IMMEDIATELY dropped to my knees and hurriedly low jogged from the area.

I don't know where the rifle shot came from, but it was fairly close. I don't know if it was someone guarding the still or someone shooting for fun, but I didn't feel the need to stick around and find out. I also don't know if the shot was fired from a scary flat black "assault" rifle or one of those extremely friendly rifles with a wooden stock, but I figured the bullet that was being fired didn't know if it was being fired from a scary rifle or a friendly rifle.

[SVPete]

My, my, my, I didn't remember it this AM, but there was an incident in 2012 that was almost exactly what Star Moron JohnnyRingo claimed cannot happen.  A moron entered Clackamas Town Center mall and starts firing away with an AR-15 type rifle, killing 2 and seriously wounding a third. A concealed carrier took aim at the moron, was spotted, and the moron fled, eventually taking his own life. I don't know OR's requirements for getting a CC license, but I suspect the CCer's Glock 22 was a greater danger to the moron than the moron's rifle was to the CCer. Because the CCer probably knew what he was doing, and the moron much less so.

[Ausonius]

My, my, my, I didn't remember it this AM, but there was an incident in 2012 that was almost exactly what Star Moron JohnnyRingo claimed cannot happen.  A moron entered Clackamas Town Center mall and starts firing away with an AR-15 type rifle, killing 2 and seriously wounding a third. A concealed carrier took aim at the moron, was spotted, and the moron fled, eventually taking his own life. I don't know OR's requirements for getting a CC license, but I suspect the CCer's Glock 22 was a greater danger to the moron than the moron's rifle was to the CCer. Because the CCer probably knew what he was doing, and the moron much less so.

Amen!  And I loved this line in the original comments:

 

In Denver where the gunman entered through the back door dressed as The Joker, it was Colorado. I'm sure there were concealed guns in that theater, but not one person tried to shoot back. Not one.

And because "I'm sure," that makes the assertion a fact!   

[J P Sousa]

The DUmmies refuse the facts;

McDonald's murderous shooter stopped by armed dad

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/29/mcdonalds-murderous-shooter-stopped-armed-dad/

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

In Garland, Texas a security guard dropped not 1, but 2 would be Muslim terrorists armed with semiautomatic rifles.

[txradioguy]

What the DUmmies don't seem to realize is that the deterrence aspect of an armed...trained security presence at a building is just as important as a guard that draws his weapon and engages an attacker.

The fear of the unknown for shooters like that...not knowing if there is a guard or armed parishoners could be the difference of life or death for those assembled.

[SVPete]

In Garland, Texas a security guard dropped not 1, but 2 would be Muslim terrorists armed with semiautomatic rifles.

Curtis Culwell Center attack

The terrorists should have used sawed-off shotguns to produce a 50 yard long, no aiming needed, cone-of-death.

[jukin]

Thank you DUchebag for making the point of having rifles. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc


The best hangun caliber is a long gun. PERIOD

[67 Rover]

Thank you DUchebag for making the point of having rifles. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc


The best hangun caliber is a long gun. PERIOD

As long as it is one of them there large velocity calibers because as you know they tumble and break bones and stuff. It has also been reported by one DUmmie some time ago that it shoots through engine blocks as well. 

[BadCat]

As long as it is one of them there large velocity calibers because as you know they tumble and break bones and stuff. It has also been reported by one DUmmie some time ago that it shoots through engine blocks as well. 

I liked the one they posted about the .223 that blew a feral hog to "pieces".