If Obama wins ?

[thundley4]

His new civilian police force?

[Chris_]

Life will go on........the occupant of the White House has little effect on me or my family personally.......

We are masters of our own fate, and are blessed to live in a land where that is possible......

doc

[Wretched Excess]

Life will go on........the occupant of the White House has little effect on me or my family personally.......

We are masters of our own fate, and are blessed to live in a land where that is possible......

doc

there have been such things as presidents that fundamentally changed the social contract between those governed and those governing.  FDR and  johnson come to mind. 

[Flame]

Life will go on........the occupant of the White House has little effect on me or my family personally.......

We are masters of our own fate, and are blessed to live in a land where that is possible......

doc

life will go on, yes, but I'm not so sure about how long the 2nd part of your statement will be true

[Wretched Excess]

life will go on, yes, but I'm not so sure about how long the 2nd part of your statement will be true

I think obama definitely has a plan, and won't hesitate to use the awesome power of the federal government to create and enforce his personal notion of "social justice", and eradicate those evil instances of inequality that a free market and a free society are open to permit.

 

[Chris_]

there have been such things as presidents that fundamentally changed the social contract between those governed and those governing.  FDR and  johnson come to mind. 

And the Republic survived both........let us not forget the backlash that occurred in 1994, and a substantial portion of LBJ's "change" has been fundementally reversed over the years.

doc

[whiffleball]

I think obama definitely has a plan, and won't hesitate to use the awesome power of the federal government to create and enforce his personal notion of "social justice", and eradicate those evil instances of inequality that a free market and a free society are open to permit.

 

To begin with-his civilian forces.  There's never been a description of what he intends their function to be exactly.  Will they enforce non-PC language?  Will they post a list of permitted terms for public use?

(had to edit for spelling)

[Chris_]

I think obama definitely has a plan, and won't hesitate to use the awesome power of the federal government to create and enforce his personal notion of "social justice", and eradicate those evil instances of inequality that a free market and a free society are open to permit.

 

All presidents have a "plan", but getting it accomplished is another thing altogether......I seem to recall that GWB had some great ideas about privatizing a small portion of Social Security, in order to preserve the program for the youngest of participants.....it was the "third rail" of American politics, and was a subject that no one dared to discuss........he tried, and failed, but that is the way of these things.

We are not in the midst of a depression with a president serving his fourth term anymore......some things have changed for the better in the "basic structure" of our government.  

Assuming that the messiah IS elected, I would doubt that even a small portion of what he has proposed will ever see the light of day, once he is faced with the realities of the office........remember that he is the most underqualified politician to ever win (if he does), he therefore does not have a clue as to what he will be up against in order to implement his grandiose "plans".

I would predict that if he wins, one year into his tenure, the most disappointed of our citizens will be the far left that are his base.......

doc

[Thor]

Life will go on........the occupant of the White House has little effect on me or my family personally.......

We are masters of our own fate, and are blessed to live in a land where that is possible......

doc

TVDOC, I'm not as comfortable with a potential Obama win as you seem to be. There's too many things that he wants to do that will hurt this country and the people in it. We'll probably survive it, but it won't be pleasant. I look forward to rampant censorship, private arms will be seized, ammunition will become unobtainable and taxes on those who make more than $50K / yr will be abominable. I haven't even thoroughly contemplated the amount of reverse racism that will grow. You must remember, we will probably have a Democrat super-majority, too. With the Dems holding the reigns of power, Obama will be able to walk all over the Constitution and individual rights. Look at the damage that GWB has done already.

[Chris_]

To begin with-his civilian forces.  There's never been a description of what he intends their function to be exactly.  Will they enforce non-PC language?  Will they post a list of permitted terms for public use?

(had to edit for spelling)

I would suggest that he will have some problems with that pesky thing called the Constitution if he intends to implement his "civilian force" idea.......

doc

[Thor]

I would suggest that he will have some problems with that pesky thing called the Constitution if he intends to implement his "civilian force" idea.......

doc

You think that something as "trivial"(to him) as the Constitution is going to stop him ??

[Wretched Excess]

And the Republic survived both........let us not forget the backlash that occurred in 1994, and a substantial portion of LBJ's "change" has been fundementally reversed over the years.

doc

I understand your point, and genuinely appreciate your intent.  but the republic only survives in a recognizable form until it finally fails to.  and I haven't seen very much of anything in the liberal agenda that has ever been "reversed", unless it had an expiration clause built into it.

[Wretched Excess]

All presidents have a "plan", but getting it accomplished is another thing altogether......I seem to recall that GWB had some great ideas about privatizing a small portion of Social Security, in order to preserve the program for the youngest of participants.....it was the "third rail" of American politics, and was a subject that no one dared to discuss........he tried, and failed, but that is the way of these things.

We are not in the midst of a depression with a president serving his fourth term anymore......some things have changed for the better in the "basic structure" of our government. 

Assuming that the messiah IS elected, I would doubt that even a small portion of what he has proposed will ever see the light of day, once he is faced with the realities of the office........remember that he is the most underqualified politician to ever win (if he does), he therefore does not have a clue as to what he will be up against in order to implement his grandiose "plans".

I would predict that if he wins, one year into his tenure, the most disappointed of our citizens will be the far left that are his base.......

doc

are you perhaps forgetting the likely makeup of the next congress?  what's going to stop him?  and the composition of the supreme court could be radically altered before the first anniversary of his election, so what is or isn't "constitutional" could completely change in the short term.

no, this election has plenty to cause extreme anxiety.  although I do see how your last sentence could work out to be very true, and I even said so someplace around here.

[Wretched Excess]

TVDOC, I'm not as comfortable with a potential Obama win as you seem to be. There's too many things that he wants to do that will hurt this country and the people in it. We'll probably survive it, but it won't be pleasant. I look forward to rampant censorship, private arms will be seized, ammunition will become unobtainable and taxes on those who make more than $50K / yr will be abominable. I haven't even thoroughly contemplated the amount of reverse racism that will grow. You must remember, we will probably have a Democrat super-majority, too. With the Dems holding the reigns of power, Obama will be able to walk all over the Constitution and individual rights. Look at the damage that GWB has done already.

in all fairness, I don't think he's exactly comfortable.  he's just saying that the united states can stand a lot of killing.  but we have to acknowledge to potential perfect storm before us;  an ultraliberal president, an ultraliberal congressional leadership, a filibuster proof majority on the senate, and a current "crisis" used as an excuse to force a statist agenda down our throats.

sooner or later, you have to worry about the fallacy of assumed concreteness. 

[USA4ME]

FYI, I have 4 extra tickets for the Robbie Knievel event at the Charlotte Convention Center this week if anyone wants them. 

He's going to try to jump 5,000 Obama supporters with a Cat D-9 bulldozer.

Should be a good time. Let me know if you want the tickets.

.

[Chris_]

I understand your point, and genuinely appreciate your intent.  but the republic only survives in a recognizable form until it finally fails to.  and I haven't seen very much of anything in the liberal agenda that has ever been "reversed", unless it had an expiration clause built into it.

Well....to start with, the "Welfare Reform Act", that slick willie was finally forced to sign, after vetoing it twice, pretty much gutted LBJ's "Great Society".  I will grant you, that much of what FDR set into motion has continued and expanded.....perhaps that course of action was the best for the country at the time, but a day of reconing will come for that also, in the not too distant future.

Don't get me wrong, and I direct this to Thor as well, I'm not comfortable with an Obama presidency at all, but I DO have a fundamental confidence in the American people to ultimately correct the direction of government......even if it takes a while.  Will it be uncomfortable, most certainly, but the more "uncomfortable" an Obama administration makes the populace, the shorter that duration will be.......Jimmy Carter being the best historical example.......

Unlike four or five decades ago, the country is ideologically divided nearly right down the middle on a number of issues that are usually raised in any election cycle.  This was not the case in 1939, nor was it the case during the Vietnam war, and LBJ's tenure......it will not take very much to tilt the electorate one way or the other on any given issue, and this condition has not been the case in this country for well over a century.

doc

[Chris_]

are you perhaps forgetting the likely makeup of the next congress?  what's going to stop him?  and the composition of the supreme court could be radically altered before the first anniversary of his election, so what is or isn't "constitutional" could completely change in the short term.

no, this election has plenty to cause extreme anxiety.  although I do see how your last sentence could work out to be very true, and I even said so someplace around here.

As I mentioned in a thread some time ago on the subject of the Supreme Court, the liberal justices are the ones that are tenaciously clinging to life (both actually, and on the court).  Therefore a liberal president replacing a couple of uber-liberal justices with a couple more is unlikely to change the mix much in the short run....given two terms, perhaps, but if you look at the history of the SC, there have been MUCH more liberal courts (the Warren Court for example), and the Constitution has still emerged more or less intact.  Further, challenges to legislation in the courts has to pass the circuits first, the most important (in this discussion) being the DC Circuit, which is relatively conservative.  All of this "Change" is going to take a lot of time and effort to accomplish.

I just don't see an Obama administration running roughshod over the Constitution, and negating the Bill of Rights, as I said before, he is a naive neophyte, and has NO clue what it will take to make his "Change" happen.......have faith......

doc

[Wretched Excess]

Well....to start with, the "Welfare Reform Act", that slick willie was finally forced to sign, after vetoing it twice, pretty much gutted LBJ's "Great Society".  I will grant you, that much of what FDR set into motion has continued and expanded.....perhaps that course of action was the best for the country at the time, but a day of reconing will come for that also, in the not too distant future.

Don't get me wrong, and I direct this to Thor as well, I'm not comfortable with an Obama presidency at all, but I DO have a fundamental confidence in the American people to ultimately correct the direction of government......even if it takes a while.  Will it be uncomfortable, most certainly, but the more "uncomfortable" an Obama administration makes the populace, the shorter that duration will be.......Jimmy Carter being the best historical example.......

Unlike four or five decades ago, the country is ideologically divided nearly right down the middle on a number of issues that are usually raised in any election cycle.  This was not the case in 1939, nor was it the case during the Vietnam war, and LBJ's tenure......it will not take very much to tilt the electorate one way or the other on any given issue, and this condition has not been the case in this country for well over a century.

doc

admitting that the new deal continues to expand while pointing out that parts of the great society may have been scaled back (and I even disagree with you about that) is almost conceding my point.  one is a mountain, the other is a molehill.  we don't know how "evenly split" the electorate is at the moment (that may change by tonight), although I would point out that an electorate that would choose the agenda that we could conceivably have coming as the solution to the problems (the real ones, not the perceived ones) that we have now would be well challenged to ever make the right choice. 

[DumbAss Tanker]

I hear what you are saying Doc, but I am not optimistic about a future where all the elective branches of Government are in the hands of only one party, and by a substantial margin in both Congressional houses.  There will be a large internal Democrat struggle for control between Congressional Dems who view themselves as the Kingmakers who put Obama in, and an attempt by Obama to defy them and prove himself to be his own man (an inexperienced and naive academic ditherer of a man, surrounded by 'Helpers' who owe much more to certain Congressmen and Senators than to him, in my opinion), but all the action will be simply conflicts over which Democrat interests to advance and how rapidly, not what is good for the country, and at the expense of rational economics in favor of unsustainable populist generosity and protectionism.

[Wretched Excess]

As I mentioned in a thread some time ago on the subject of the Supreme Court, the liberal justices are the ones that are tenaciously clinging to life (both actually, and on the court).  Therefore a liberal president replacing a couple of uber-liberal justices with a couple more is unlikely to change the mix much in the short run....given two terms, perhaps, but if you look at the history of the SC, there have been MUCH more liberal courts (the Warren Court for example), and the Constitution has still emerged more or less intact.  Further, challenges to legislation in the courts has to pass the circuits first, the most important (in this discussion) being the DC Circuit, which is relatively conservative.  All of this "Change" is going to take a lot of time and effort to accomplish.

I just don't see an Obama administration running roughshod over the Constitution, and negating the Bill of Rights, as I said before, he is a naive neophyte, and has NO clue what it will take to make his "Change" happen.......have faith......

doc

no one knows what is going to happen on the SCOTUS during the next four years.  again, you perceive a loophole, and I perceive a great danger in turning over the SCOTUS and the confirmation process to barack obama and harry reid.  and you seem to be completely forgetting the abnormally large number of vacancies that exist on the federal bench because the PMS congress has refused to vote on bush's nominees.


 

[Wretched Excess]

I hear what you are saying Doc, but I am not optimistic about a future where all the elective branches of Government are in the hands of only one party, and by a substantial margin in both Congressional houses.  There will be a large internal Democrat struggle for control between Congressional Dems who view themselves as the Kingmakers who put Obama in, and an attempt by Obama to defy them and prove himself to be his own man (an inexperienced and naive academic ditherer of a man, surrounded by 'Helpers' who owe much more to certain Congressmen and Senators than to him, in my opinion), but all the action will be simply conflicts over which Democrat interests to advance and how rapidly, not what is good for the country, and at the expense of rational economics in favor of unsustainable populist generosity and protectionism.

I completely agree.  there would be something of a power struggle between congress and the executive to see who has the upper hand in driving the agenda, but it would inevitably be an ultraliberal agenda.  thus, the problem.

[Chris_]

admitting that the new deal continues to expand while pointing out that parts of the great society may have been scaled back (and I even disagree with you about that) is almost conceding my point.  one is a mountain, the other is a molehill.  we don't know how "evenly split" the electorate is at the moment (that may change by tonight), although I would point out that an electorate that would choose the agenda that we could conceivably have coming as the solution to the problems (the real ones, not the perceived ones) that we have now would be well challenged to ever make the right choice. 

My point was that the New Deal may have been the right thing for the country at that point.....not that its continued expansion is a good thing, and the fact that it is nearing the point where it will force the politians to make some very difficult decisions on its future, or bankrupt the country, is also a good thing.

As far as how "evenly split" the electorate is......regardless of who wins tonight, I doubt that it will be by a popular vote landslide......I would be very surprised if the difference in the popular vote between the two candidates will be more than 4 or 5 points..........hell, even Bob Dole, as bad a candidate as he was, didn't lose by a "landslide"......

doc

[Wretched Excess]

I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion, by the way.

[Wretched Excess]

My point was that the New Deal may have been the right thing for the country at that point.....not that its continued expansion is a good thing, and the fact that it is nearing the point where it will force the politians to make some very difficult decisions on its future, or bankrupt the country, is also a good thing.

As far as how "evenly split" the electorate is......regardless of who wins tonight, I doubt that it will be by a popular vote landslide......I would be very surprised if the difference in the popular vote between the two candidates will be more than 4 or 5 points..........hell, even Bob Dole, as bad a candidate as he was, didn't lose by a "landslide"......

doc

that is a totally different discussion.  there is no way we will get that one covered and still squeeze in anything about the election today.  

and bob dole didn't get blown out because it was a three way race.  split ross perot's 9% of the popular vote up evenly, and you're looking at something like 55-45 clinton.  that's about where landslides start.

[Chris_]

I hear what you are saying Doc, but I am not optimistic about a future where all the elective branches of Government are in the hands of only one party, and by a substantial margin in both Congressional houses.  .

Nor am I optimistic about it.....I fear loss of the filibuster in  the Senate much, much more than I fear an Obama presidency.......

I'm simply attempting to play the devil's advocate here a little, and allow the light of history to shine on the situation........I'm not saying that this is a good thing, only that it has happened before, and the Republic has survived.....

doc