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Author Topic: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC  (Read 17210 times)

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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #125 on: February 05, 2009, 05:56:54 PM »
BTW, great quote by Lee, eh?

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The consolidation of the States into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.  --General Robert E Lee

The man must have had a ****ing crystal ball.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline formerlurker

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #126 on: February 05, 2009, 05:58:50 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 05, 2009, 05:54:48 PM
Those stipulations were placed in the documents before they joined the union. Yes, it does have to be regarded in the same light.

No it doesn't, as to do so would require an amendment of the Constitution by the Union -- which Freedumb2003 has repeated about a dozen or so times in this thread.   They cannot unilateraly change the Consitution/Union.
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #127 on: February 05, 2009, 06:02:11 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 05, 2009, 05:56:54 PM
BTW, great quote by Lee, eh?

The man must have had a ******* crystal ball.

“Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for “perpetual union” so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by a revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled. It is idle to talk of secession, Anarchy would have been established, and not a government, by Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and the other patriots of the Revolution.

Robert E. Lee, from a letter written to his son, January 23, 1861
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 06:05:00 PM by formerlurker »
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #128 on: February 05, 2009, 06:04:37 PM »
Ok, so where's it located in the founding documents that secession is illegal? I've only asked about 500 times.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline formerlurker

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #129 on: February 05, 2009, 06:05:21 PM »
Quote from: Rebel on February 05, 2009, 06:04:37 PM
Ok, so where's it located in the founding documents that secession is illegal? I've only asked about 500 times.


 :whatever:
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #130 on: February 05, 2009, 06:07:42 PM »
Quote from: formerlurker on February 05, 2009, 06:02:11 PM
“Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of out Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for “perpetual union” so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by a revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled. It is idle to talk of secession, Anarchy would have been established, and not a government, by Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and the other patriots of the Revolution.

Robert E. Lee, from a letter written to his son, January 23, 1861


Great find.  I think if Reb has sort of backed into a point it is that the South's great men are not really featured in American History class -- up to and including college, except for graduate level history classes. 

As a result people don't realize just how brilliant people like Lee, J. Davis and others were.  Like Reb, they were passionate and really felt they were doing the right thing -- maybe the only right thing -- for their people.  They were also quite eloquent, as is demonstrated in some of the quotes we have seen here.

Reb, that is the fight you should be fighting IMHO -- not refighting the Civil War (I almost used my new term but decided against it...).
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #131 on: February 05, 2009, 06:10:12 PM »
Quote from: Rebel
Ok, so where's it located in the founding documents that secession is illegal? I've only asked about 500 times.

I will type slowly for you:
1) The USC provides a means for dissolution
2) The Supremacy Clause establishes that as the ONLY way to leave the Union, through dissolution
3) The 10th Amendment specifically says it covers only that which has NOT been covered in the USC/BOR

See? Not that hard, when you read slowly...

Also, we have this gem from Article III of the USC:

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Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 06:13:02 PM by freedumb2003 »
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #132 on: February 05, 2009, 06:24:53 PM »
How was it treason when they were members of another sovereign nation? As for the dissolution, again, the south wasn't trying to dissolve the entire union. They were dissolving their ties with the union. The union was still intact after the southern states left.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline Rebel

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #133 on: February 05, 2009, 06:26:54 PM »
I'd love to play more, but I have to study for the LSAT.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline Chris_

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Re: Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC
« Reply #134 on: February 12, 2009, 11:57:18 AM »
Sorry to dredge up this battle again, but I heard this today, and saw quite a bit of application to the argument that was never really resolved.

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The Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions(or Resolves) were important political statements in favor of states' rights written secretly by Vice President Thomas Jefferson (who would later become president) and James Madison in 1798, respectively. They were passed by the two states in opposition to the federal Alien and Sedition Acts. Though often mentioned as a pair in modern historical discussions, they were actually two separate documents. The Kentucky Resolutions (plural) were written by Jefferson and passed by the state legislature on November 16, 1798, with one more being passed the following year on December 3, 1799. The Virginia Resolution (singular) was written by Madison and passed by the state legislature on December 24, 1798. Jefferson and Madison collaborated on the writing of the two documents, but their authorship was not known for many years. The resolutions attacked the Sedition Acts, which extended the powers of the federal government. The resolutions declared that the Constitution was a "compact." That is, it was an agreement among the states. The federal government had no right to exercise powers not specifically delegated to it; should the federal government assume such powers, its acts under them would be void. Thus it was the right of the states to decide as to the constitutionality of such laws passed by Congress.
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