Toyota losing money

[franksolich]

Yay!  We've found a closet racist.

Oh now, don't be so judgemental, so quick to jump to hasty conclusions.

The sentiments as expressed by our esteemed colleague Tucker13 are based upon something wholly different from race.  Those are sentiments widely, and oftentimes legitimately, held by those who put a great deal of their lives into American automotive manufacturing.

Whether those sentiments prove accurate, is up for history to judge.

I myself have no opinion on the matter, other than that such sentiments are based upon socio-economic hopes and fears, not upon the color of anyone's skin.

[Chris_]

Rebel, I just feel silly, I kept saying Tundra when it obviously isn't.  I used to date a guy that drove a Tundra and it's clearly different than the little Tacoma. 

And a Tundra is never cute, it's very manly.   

Those things are HUGE!  When my stepdad, mom and I were waiting to pick up her Highlander after the dealer mechanics f***ed up the onboard computer and had to repair it, my stepdad and I went to the showroom to look at the Tundra 4 door they had.  That Tundra seemed bigger than my Dad's 07 Silverado crew cab.  It could have been the height of the truck, or maybe it's the fact I'm practically a midget.    

I really don't think I could get behind the wheel of one. Call me weird, I can drive my stepmom's Suburban with ease, but its the crew cabs that scare her and I more than anything.  

[Tucker]

Yay!  We've found a closet racist.

Grow the **** up.  We killed 2.7 million Japanese and dropped two atomic weapons on their nation for that war.  Since then we've become some of the closest allies.  And quite frankly, in the near 8 years I've lived in Japan and defended her shores, I can say without a hesitation in my mind that most Japanese are better people then most Americans.

They've long ago gotten over the atrocities we committed onto them.  Why don't you join the rest of us where we don't have our heads shoved up our asses.

Not at all. Just don't like their business practices.

How about you choose your friend and I'll choose mine. You buy what you want to buy and I'll buy what I want, based on MY preferences.

[Tantal]

Not at all. Just don't like their business practices.

Ya. Building a quality product at a competitive price. Then they have the audacity to sell that product at a PROFIT and give it to shareholders. ASSHOLES!

[Zeus]

I do think the meme about foreign made vehicles are just so much better is strange. There has been foreign made vehicles made & allowed in the USA now long enough. If they are so well made how come you don't see many older models on the roads,say 15 - 20 yrs old or so.  German beemers & Benz maybe but you hardly ever see a 20+ yr old model of a Toyota or Mazda or even Honda around. Yea they are out there but not in the numbers one would expect for such Superior made vehicles.

[LC EFA]

A pretty high percentage of the vehicles on our roads are made in Japan. Especially in the commercial fleets.

I have a Nissan pickup truck , everyone I know has either Nissan or Toyota pickup trucks.

They're affordable, reliable, have excellent spare parts logistics and service availability and are tough as nails.

Next vehicle I get will probably be a Mitsubishi cab-over 4x4 truck.

If the Ford / Chevy / etc vehicles are so good, why aren't they exported in as large numbers, and to as many markets as the Asian made fleets ?

[Zeus]

A pretty high percentage of the vehicles on our roads are made in Japan. Especially in the commercial fleets.

I have a Nissan pickup truck , everyone I know has either Nissan or Toyota pickup trucks.

They're affordable, reliable, have excellent spare parts logistics and service availability and are tough as nails.

Next vehicle I get will probably be a Mitsubishi cab-over 4x4 truck.

If the Ford / Chevy / etc vehicles are so good, why aren't they exported in as large numbers, and to as many markets as the Asian made fleets ?

Yes they are out there but not older ones,that's my point. sure you see new or a couple yr old foreign vehicles all over the place but if they are built so good where they hiding all the 15 , 20  or 20+ yr old ones.


Import restrictions primarily.

[Tucker]

A pretty high percentage of the vehicles on our roads are made in Japan. Especially in the commercial fleets.

I have a Nissan pickup truck , everyone I know has either Nissan or Toyota pickup trucks.

They're affordable, reliable, have excellent spare parts logistics and service availability and are tough as nails.

Next vehicle I get will probably be a Mitsubishi cab-over 4x4 truck.

If the Ford / Chevy / etc vehicles are so good, why aren't they exported in as large numbers, and to as many markets as the Asian made fleets ?

Tariffs that Japan places on American vehicles coming into their country.

[LC EFA]

Yes they are out there but not older ones,that's my point. sure you see new or a couple yr old foreign vehicles all over the place but if they are built so good where they hiding all the 15 , 20  or 20+ yr old ones.

Could be many reasons.. Firstly I'd think to looking at the proportion of them that were actually sold back in those days. If they were sold in markedly less volume then that might account for the deficit.

Perhaps in the US the spares logistics aren't what they are here, so they fall out of circulation sooner.

I'd actually go with a combination of the above two.

[LC EFA]

Tariffs that Japan places on American vehicles coming into their country.

Japanese auto makers export to many countries in quite large volumes.

I don't know how big the US auto export business is, but does it export a comparable volume to a comparable number of markets ?
 
 

[Rebel]

I do think the meme about foreign made vehicles are just so much better is strange. There has been foreign made vehicles made & allowed in the USA now long enough. If they are so well made how come you don't see many older models on the roads,say 15 - 20 yrs old or so.  German beemers & Benz maybe but you hardly ever see a 20+ yr old model of a Toyota or Mazda or even Honda around. Yea they are out there but not in the numbers one would expect for such Superior made vehicles.

I see 90's models Japanese cars all over the place. 1990 was almost 20 years ago, as hard as it is to believe. Damn time is going by too damn fast.

[Rebel]

By the way, if you want to buy American, seems you have to buy Japanese. Even most of the assembly for my Tahoe happened in another country, with final assembly in Texas.

[Tucker]

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-exec-seeks-40-billion-euro-loan-from-eu.html

Toyota exec seeks 40 billion euro loan from EU


senior vice president of Toyota’s United Kingdom office strongly suggested that the European Commission consider an economic stimulus package that would include 40 billion euros in low-interest, short-term loans to aid the automakers in developing fuel-efficient vehicles for the future.

Graham Smith, speaking at the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, said, “At a time of economic uncertainty when budgets are stretched to capacity, we must ensure the industry continues to invest in the development of new products and innovative technology.”

The European Investment Bank would provide the loans that will potentially be offered by the European Commission. The European Commission will meet today to consider the economic stimulus package.

Wonder why they didn't ask for bailout money in the US.

[Zeus]

Based on an article written in November 2007 by the Detroit News, Toyota posted a profit of more than $14.9 billion profit.  Their sales figures for 2007 were projected at this time to be around 8.93 million vehicles sold world wide.

Another similar article reported on GM’s standing during 2007, which was written in February of 2008 by the International Herald Tribune.  The GM article was written with a radically different view of the automakers sales figures, stating that GM lost $38.7 billion in 2007.  The same article goes on to identify the number of vehicle sales for GM world wide, which was 9.4 million.

So here we have two articles discussing domestic versus foreign auto manufacturers sales figures.  Both companies sell nearly the identical number of vehicles, even GM selling slightly more, yet HUGE differences in their profit margins.  GM wasn’t even hoping to make it into the black come 4th quarter of 07 and 08 hasn’t been any friendlier to the books.

To summarize, two competing companies, dealing with comparable products, selling comparable amounts of units, post a difference in earnings for the year of $53.6 billion.  Toyota being the company who remained in the black, profiting $14.9 billion, and finally taking over the leader in car sales worldwide in 08.

Evidently sales or lack thereof is not the Big 3's financial problem.

[Tucker]

Evidently sales or lack thereof is not the Big 3's financial problem.

Legacy costs. GM had 500,000+ collecting a pension. If Asian manufacturers are here long enough, they will  be faced with the same liabilities.

[Zeus]

Legacy costs. GM had 500,000+ collecting a pension. If Asian manufacturers are here long enough, they will  be faced with the same liabilities.

Are the Asian manufacturers union ?  I think they have a 'You no workie you no get paid" policy. Unless of course you have some vacation time coming.

[rich_t]

Legacy costs. GM had 500,000+ collecting a pension. If Asian manufacturers are here long enough, they will  be faced with the same liabilities.

The legacy costs are part of it.  As are the current Union employee costs.  Paying unskilled workers $20.00+ per hour doesn't make smart business sense to me.

[rich_t]

Are the Asian manufacturers union ? 

Honda isn't
Toyota isn't
Hyundai isn't
Nissan isn't

Nor do I think any of these companies offer pension plans nor medical benefits to retirees.  The folks that work in the local Honda plant get a 401K option.  They don't get company paid medical benefits after retiring either.

I'm not positive about the others.

[Tucker]

The legacy costs are part of it.  As are the current Union employee costs.  Paying unskilled workers $20.00+ per hour doesn't make smart business sense to me.

What is the hourly rate of asian automakers? 25.00 an hour?

[Zeus]

Honda isn't
Toyota isn't
Hyundai isn't
Nissan isn't

Nor do I think any of these companies offer pension plans nor medical benefits to retirees.  The folks that work in the local Honda plant get a 401K option.  They don't get company paid medical benefits after retiring either.

I'm not positive about the others.

I think the folks that work for toyota down by San Antonio and those soon to be working for Toyota down the road in Temple have defined benefit retirement plans. It's not a something for nothing plan you gets what you gives plus interest. 401's and of course stock options and some kind of profit sharing plan also.

[rich_t]

What is the hourly rate of asian automakers? 25.00 an hour?

I don't recall.  They make less than their union counter-parts, at least according to every single article I've read on the issue.

[Zeus]

I don't recall.  They make less than their union counter-parts, at least according to every single article I've read on the issue.

I think the national avg pay differiental was somewhere in the neighbor hood of $30/hr.

(http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/article.aspx?RsrcID=39499CNSNews.com) – Economists in Michigan, the long-time home of the auto industry, say they don’t support the proposed multi-billion dollar bailout of Big Three automakers Chrysler, GM and Ford.
 
One reason why, they say, is the ultra-high labor costs for union workers employed by the Big Three. It costs over $73 per hour on average to employ a union auto worker, according to University of Michigan at Flint economist Mark J. Perry.
 
“Is it right to tax the average worker making $28.50 to bailout workers whose labor cost is over $73 an hour?” Perry asked.
 
He explained that in 2006, widely available industry and Labor Department statistics placed the average labor cost for UAW-represented workers at the former DaimlerChrysler at $75.86 per hour. For Ford it was $70.51, he said, and for General Motors it was $73.26.
 
“That includes the hourly pay, plus the benefits they’re receiving and all the other costs to General Motors, Ford and Chrysler, including legacy costs – retirement costs, pensions, and so on – so it’s looking at the total labor costs per hour worked for workers,” Perry said.
 
For U.S. workers at Toyota, however, the per hour labor cost is around $47.60, around $43 for Honda and around $42 for Nissan, Perry added, for an average of around $44.
 
“So we’re looking at somewhere around a $29 per hour pay gap between the Big Three and the foreign transplants that are producing cars in the United States,” Perry, chairman of the economics department, told CNSNews.com.

[Tucker]

I think the folks that work for toyota down by San Antonio and those soon to be working for Toyota down the road in Temple have defined benefit retirement plans. It's not a something for nothing plan you gets what you gives plus interest. 401's and of course stock options and some kind of profit sharing plan also.

That's the same as GM's hourly work force. They changed to that system several years ago.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

I do think the meme about foreign made vehicles are just so much better is strange. There has been foreign made vehicles made & allowed in the USA now long enough. If they are so well made how come you don't see many older models on the roads,say 15 - 20 yrs old or so.  German beemers & Benz maybe but you hardly ever see a 20+ yr old model of a Toyota or Mazda or even Honda around. Yea they are out there but not in the numbers one would expect for such Superior made vehicles.

At one time both Toyota and Honda had problems with their vehicles rusting badly very early in the life of the car. I think they've since gotten it remedied. As far as the meme you referred to.....I really believe that this is really just a burning hatred for the UAW on display! You'll notice everytime you hear that meme shortly thereafter the UAW is somehow brought up!

[Zeus]

At one time both Toyota and Honda had problems with their vehicles rusting badly very early in the life of the car. I think they've since gotten it remedied. As far as the meme you referred to.....I really believe that this is really just a burning hatred for the UAW on display! You'll notice everytime you hear that meme shortly thereafter the UAW is somehow brought up!

Although I think the UAW is a major contributer to the Big 3's current travails that wasn't on my mind when I mentioned the meme. hell just look at the stats, The Big three still outsell the asians, their cars last longer,score better on various test like safety etc etc.

sure a few of the imports get a couple miles per gal better gas mileage but one has to ask themselves is a couple MPG more worth risking mine or my families safety.

I think most the cheerleading for the imports is just political correctness look at me I am cool cause I bash american made cars.