I don't think we should leave Afghanistan right now

[dutch508]

Star Member Stinky The Clown (63,062 posts)
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215415055

I don't think we should leave Afghanistan right now
The painfully fresh mass grave of dead young women who were killed for trying to get an education is all the reason we need.

It's Biden's war now.

 

winetourdriver01 (461 posts)

2. I don't agree

That's who they are, and they are going to do things like that whenever they can. In the geopolitical world there is an old saying about Afghanistan- It's where empires go to die. We've been there twenty years, it's enough.

Star Member Hoyt (48,708 posts)

6. Maybe if we had gone in there with a different motive, we could have accomplished something.

What we've spent would probably provide every Afghan 2, 3, or more times the per capita income for the rest of their lives and more.

In stead, we left them with bombs, landmines, Eddie Gallagher, and dog knows what else.

betsuni (16,247 posts)

7. I agree. Nato forces should stay.

albacore (1,050 posts)

11. Only hubris makes Americans think they can change a place like Afghanistan.

Make a list of the barbaric regimes that violate human rights as a matter of policy...then...let's go to war with them.

No matter what the historical, cultural and political situation is, we can teach them - at gunpoint - to be good citizens of a new Western-style democracy.

THIS is why we haven't won a war since 1945... and we're not about to win the next couple of wars, either.

Xolodno (4,661 posts)

13. We should have never got involved in the first place.

And I don't mean Bin Laden....I'm talking about aiding them during the Soviet invasion. We trained their leaders who then trained everyone else and used those same tactics against us. The Soviets had the best chance of pacifying them, but, in our one up ship, wanted to give there version of Vietnam. Lets not forget, we had Taliban leadership invited and visiting the White House. Our Cold War policies still continue to haunt us.

Sad to say, at this point, genocide would be required to pacify the Taliban. Which is something we won't do and they know it...and it inspirer's them. We're talking about certain people who are willing to kill their own daughter brutally with rocks for an "alleged" transgression.

I know this won't be popular, I will get flamed and good chance this post gets hidden. But, like the SS of Nazi Germany, some evil just can't be rehabilitated. The best option, split the country with the parts that want to move on and help them defend it. Contain the rest, nothing goes in and nothing comes out. They want to live like the stone age, oblige them. It will eventually fall, just not in our generation or maybe the next. It's still wrong, particularly for those who want to leave that hell...but we have few choices.

What worries me, the Taliban spreads their shit to Tajikistan and Uzbekistan...that is their near time goal. But if that starts happening, wouldn't be surprised Moscow gives a call to DC and informs them that they are no longer the only member of the club who used nukes on foreign territory. And we'll give the usual condemnations...while telling them privately "good job".

Star Member panader0 (22,396 posts)

14. Remind me why the US invaded Afghanistan to begin with.

Because of 911? Oil pipelines for US corps.? It never made sense.
A horrible mistake. Yeah, the Taliban is bad, the women are mistreated.
Physician, heal thyself. We have so many racial and sexual injustices in our own country.
Let's start there.

 

Star Member JI7 (84,215 posts)

17. Becsuse that's where terrorists trained for 9-11 attacks

Star Member panader0 (22,396 posts)

20. Of 19 hijackers, 15 were from Saudi Arabia.

None were from Afghanistan.
Yes, I know they trained there, and in Florida, but does that mean invade and wage war for 20
years? There were other reasons besides 911, I believe

 

maxsolomon (24,194 posts)

49. Because Al Queda was based there.

They planned and executed 9/11 from a safe haven provided by the Taliban, with money and personnel gathered from all over Sunni Islam. The fact that Bush ****ed up the response doesn't mean there wasn't a need to respond.

Your Isolationist dismissal of the Taliban's medieval theocratic misogyny isn't a good look.

Star Member panader0 (22,396 posts)

53. There is plenty of "medieval theocratic misogyny" going on right in this country. Not a good look.

Our number one terrorist threat is from within. After 20 years and many deaths in Afghanistan,
what good has our war accomplished? I don't believe in isolationism, nor do I believe that the US
should go around the world trying, and usually failing, to police the troubles. If we are to be the world's
police force, we'll need many times more soldiers than we have.

 

HariSeldon (112 posts)

15. We need consistent, rational policy

Let's say we did this: First, formally declare war against the government (the Taliban at the time) of Afghanistan for supporting and harboring terrorists who committed an act of war against our nation.

Second, take significant territory in the country and establish a relationship with the local forces willing to oppose the Taliban.

Third, establish an effective refugee program to assist Afghanis in Taliban-controlled areas to flee while announcing the imminence of attacks on Taliban controlled areas.

Fourth, having cleared as many civilians as reasonably possible, use the military power we have to thoroughly destroy the areas remaining under Taliban control, considering any person discovered to be an enemy collaborator unless and until proven otherwise; there is no question this would be atrocious, and certainly some innocent people would die, but that happened in our country, too, and we would have at least tried to minimize it there.

Fifth, we allow a plebiscite among the cooperating Afghanis to place a government in power, train their troops, and hand over security to them.

Sixth, we leave, promising to come back with the same set of steps if we start seeing the same kind of threats to our national security arise again. Ideally, there's some kind of trade deal in there, too, if they can keep their country stable and secure.

Could we as a nation ever have committed to this? Would it have worked? Would it have been legal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law? Would it have left our military in an untenable readiness level?

 

ansible (1,356 posts)

24. How exactly do you propose to fight against a religion hell bent on enslaving women?

They hate women so much they're literally willing to DIE to kill them too, because it means they get to go to their version of "heaven".

Star Member Skittles (134,852 posts)

25. may I ask

did you serve?

 

Star Member Celerity (19,513 posts)

27. NO, it is time to GTFO. Please stop pushing forever wars.

Star Member Stinky The Clown (63,062 posts)

38. "Please stop pushing forever wars"

Are you saying I am "pushing forever wars"? I want a yes or no to that.

May I assume you're perfectly okay with 60 dead girls?

Star Member Stinky The Clown (63,062 posts)

44. I wish you felt as strongly for the 60 young women who are now dead

Whatever ..... right?

Star Member Celerity (19,513 posts)

47. completely unfair mischaracterisation of me on a personal level

They died whilst we were still there as well.

What would YOU have the US do?

Go full stop takeover/complete submission of Afghanistan via the slaughter of, say, 5, 10 million or more?

Make the Helmand, Kabul, Amu Darya, Panjshir, etc. rivers run red, the vast arid, brutal deserts run red, the torturous mountains run red, the urban hellscapes run red, all of the land and water run red with the blood of millions of Afghan people of colour and hundreds of thousands (perhaps over a million once the war is taken onto the US soil) of dead Americans?

Are you prepared for multiple 9-11 style (in terms of impact) attacks (perhaps worse if we start talking about multiple radiological attacks such as dirty bombs)? They will come to the US as surely as day follows night IF the US ramps it up to that level..

Because trust me, to literally crush the entire fight and horrific fundamentalism out of them, it will take all of what I said and more, so much more death, so much more chaos, pain, misery, darkness, and dare I say evil.

Sometimes, you just have to know when to fold your hand.

The US is not omnipotent, and human beings, until we start genetic modification/cognitive programming from perhaps even pre-birth (and likely with an AI component), are ALWAYS going to commit atrocities.

That was etched into our makeup millions of years ago, and given a right proper turbocharging when humans first started the insanity of the wilful suspension of disbelief that was needed for the concept of god(s) and its attendant monster, religion, to be wrought forth.

Trying to wipe out all atrocities now, at the weak (yet insanely strong in terms of manifestations of mass death) systemic levels of human tech we have at the present is only going to produce greater atrocities than simply walking away, and on Afghanistan's case, using multinational (UN please, not NATO) regional containment stratagems.

 

RegularJam (131 posts)

31. I think there are more negatives than positives to leaving. I think we should stay.

But it's more about perception and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I do know that what happens to women cannot be a reason for staying, as outlined as your concern. Sad but true.

 

[SVPete]

Star Member Stinky The Clown (63,062 posts)
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215415055

I don't think we should leave Afghanistan right now
The painfully fresh mass grave of dead young women who were killed for trying to get an education is all the reason we need.

Yeah, well, what did Stinker say when girls' schools were attacked when Bush and Trump were President.

[franksolich]

Yeah, well, what did Stinker say when girls' schools were attacked when Bush and Trump were President.

Right.  The sparkling old dude's been an adult during a lot of wars, beginning with the war in Vietnam.  One doubts he expressed any sympathy for the Vietnamese women murdered, injured, and raped by the North Vietnamese during that war--and it was probably more than a mere 60.....per week.

The sparkling old dude's lived during a time that saw tens of millions of women murdered, injured, and raped by socialists all over the world; one wonders why he's suddenly so concerned about a mere five dozen recently.

My guess is that because he's dominated by his much younger trophy second wife, he says whatever she wants him to say.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

The Taliban attacked in retaliation for Biden reneging on the agreement made with Trump.

[ADsOutburst]

albacore (1,050 posts)

11. Only hubris makes Americans think they can change a place like Afghanistan.

Make a list of the barbaric regimes that violate human rights as a matter of policy...then...let's go to war with them.

No matter what the historical, cultural and political situation is, we can teach them - at gunpoint - to be good citizens of a new Western-style democracy.

THIS is why we haven't won a war since 1945... and we're not about to win the next couple of wars, either.

The first Gulf War must have been so fast and decisive that some don't even realize it happened. 

[USA4ME]

Stinky The Clown

I don't think we should leave Afghanistan right now.

Cap’n Dementia is weak. The enemy knows he’s weak. Personally I’d rather our military not be in harms way under an administration whose leader isn’t even sure what day it is.

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