I hope McLame reads this.

[DixieBelle]

I feel the same way. He's not my ideal candidate but he's a heck of a lot closer than the opposition. I think we all need to look back at just the last four years and ask ourselves how many times Bush has done or said something we didn't agree with. I promise you, most conservatives can recall something they didn't like. It will be the same regardless of whoever is the GOP nominee.

[USA4ME]

I find myself defending mccain more and more these days.  and I don't like him any more than you do.

I am trying to see the big picture, though.  it's very difficult most days, but I can find plenty of great reasons to
vote for john mccain besides the fact that he isn't baroque obama.

When November rolls around, it may be different.  But on this date looking forward, if NC is close I'd likely vote for McCain.  If it's clearly one way or the other, I probably won't vote for president at all.

.

[Wretched Excess]

I feel the same way. He's not my ideal candidate but he's a heck of a lot closer than the opposition. I think we all need to look back at just the last four years and ask ourselves how many times Bush has done or said something we didn't agree with. I promise you, most conservatives can recall something they didn't like. It will be the same regardless of whoever is the GOP nominee.

in a lot of ways, GWB had his presidency abducted by 9/11.  he ran as a strong social conservative (who spoke out repeatedly against "nation-building, by the way) during what appeared to be a time of peace and prosperity.  and then september happened.

I am willing to cut him infinite slack for whatever he has screwed up since then.  the man knows right from wrong, and he is decisive.  I can't imagine where we would be if al gore had won in 2000.  it truly rattles me to think about it.

[Wretched Excess]

I find myself defending mccain more and more these days.  and I don't like him any more than you do.

I am trying to see the big picture, though.  it's very difficult most days, but I can find plenty of great reasons to
vote for john mccain besides the fact that he isn't baroque obama.

When November rolls around, it may be different.  But on this date looking forward, if NC is close I'd likely vote for McCain.  If it's clearly one way or the other, I probably won't vote for president at all.

.

I feel like I say this in the election forum 10 times a week, but I am sure that once the dems have a nominee, and we have
an opportunity to make a direct comparison, the choice will become clear for conservatives.

[DixieBelle]

I feel the same way. He's not my ideal candidate but he's a heck of a lot closer than the opposition. I think we all need to look back at just the last four years and ask ourselves how many times Bush has done or said something we didn't agree with. I promise you, most conservatives can recall something they didn't like. It will be the same regardless of whoever is the GOP nominee.

in a lot of ways, GWB had his presidency abducted by 9/11.  he ran as a strong social conservative (who spoke out repeatedly against "nation-building, by the way) during what appeared to be a time of peace and prosperity.  and then September happened.

I am willing to cut him infinite slack for whatever he has screwed up since then.  the man knows right from wrong, and he is decisive.  I can't imagine where we would be if al gore had won in 2000.  it truly rattles me to think about it.

I too have cut him slack. You HAVE to look at 9/11 and what followed. When he won the election, I saw his Inauguration and thought, "okay, here's decent man who was decent as my Governor, I guess things will be fine as long as Congress doesn't fight him too hard" - and then Sept 11 happened. It changed everything. I don't even know if I can articulate how it dramatically it changed my perceptions and beliefs.

Bush is a conviction president. He's never paid attention to the polls. I've always admired that even when I haven't agreed.

[Chris_]

I feel the same way. He's not my ideal candidate but he's a heck of a lot closer than the opposition. I think we all need to look back at just the last four years and ask ourselves how many times Bush has done or said something we didn't agree with. I promise you, most conservatives can recall something they didn't like. It will be the same regardless of whoever is the GOP nominee.

I agree to an extent.....going into 2000 Bush was an unknown in national politics, coming from Govenorship of a conservative state.  He looked great when compared to slick willy.....however, McCain's positions on issues important to conservatives are well known, and looked upon with distain by most thinking conservatives.  Therefore I find myself in the same position as USA, I may take an industrial size barf bag with me to the polls in November, or, I might stay home or vote for the "Constitution Party", et. al.

It is really tough to vote for someone that has made it patently clear on many issues that he just doesn't give a damn what I consider important, and doesn't really care whether we vote for him or not.......and for those of you that will make the counter that a mcCain vote is for the good of the party, it is that same party that is completely responsible for McCain's candidacy to begin with......he should never have been allowed to run in the first place as a Republican.......

We conservatives are the first to loudly proclaim that politicians on our side need to take principled positions on key issues, and stick to our guns......and the party is now asking us to forget our "principles", and vote for a limp-wristed RINO that essentially stands for nothing when the chips are down....I'm not sure that I can do that.....

doc

[Wretched Excess]

I feel the same way. He's not my ideal candidate but he's a heck of a lot closer than the opposition. I think we all need to look back at just the last four years and ask ourselves how many times Bush has done or said something we didn't agree with. I promise you, most conservatives can recall something they didn't like. It will be the same regardless of whoever is the GOP nominee.

in a lot of ways, GWB had his presidency abducted by 9/11.  he ran as a strong social conservative (who spoke out repeatedly against "nation-building, by the way) during what appeared to be a time of peace and prosperity.  and then September happened.

I am willing to cut him infinite slack for whatever he has screwed up since then.  the man knows right from wrong, and he is decisive.  I can't imagine where we would be if al gore had won in 2000.  it truly rattles me to think about it.

I too have cut him slack. You HAVE to look at 9/11 and what followed. When he won the election, I saw his Inauguration and thought, "okay, here's decent man who was decent as my Governor, I guess things will be fine as long as Congress doesn't fight him too hard" - and then Sept 11 happened. It changed everything. I don't even know if I can articulate how it dramatically it changed my perceptions and beliefs.

Bush is a conviction president. He's never paid attention to the polls. I've always admired that even when I haven't agreed.

you've hit upon something that I have always thought was significant;  he is supremely confident in his judgment.  I think that is part of what drives the DUmmies so insane;  he flatly doesn't NOT second guess himself.

I can't decide if that is mostly because of his strong faith, his MBA, or just because he's a damn texan.  

[Wretched Excess]

I feel the same way. He's not my ideal candidate but he's a heck of a lot closer than the opposition. I think we all need to look back at just the last four years and ask ourselves how many times Bush has done or said something we didn't agree with. I promise you, most conservatives can recall something they didn't like. It will be the same regardless of whoever is the GOP nominee.

I agree to an extent.....going into 2000 Bush was an unknown in national politics, coming from Govenorship of a conservative state.  He looked great when compared to slick willy.....however, McCain's positions on issues important to conservatives are well known, and looked upon with distain by most thinking conservatives.  Therefore I find myself in the same position as USA, I may take an industrial size barf bag with me to the polls in November, or, I might stay home or vote for the "Constitution Party", et. al.

It is really tough to vote for someone that has made it patently clear on many issues that he just doesn't give a damn what I consider important, and doesn't really care whether we vote for him or not.......and for those of you that will make the counter that a mcCain vote is for the good of the party, it is that same party that is completely responsible for McCain's candidacy to begin with......he should never have been allowed to run in the first place as a Republican.......

We conservatives are the first to loudly proclaim that politicians on our side need to take principled positions on key issues, and stick to our guns......and the party is now asking us to forget our "principles", and vote for a limp-wristed RINO that essentially stands for nothing when the chips are down....I'm not sure that I can do that.....

doc

I'm not sure that you speak for all "thinking conservatives", first of all.  and quite frankly, I am running out of patience for this line of reasoning.  when president obama nationalizes what left of the private health care industry, confiscates your income, and strips the defenses of this country, I don't want to hear any bitching out of the people that stayed home on election day.

[Chris_]

I'm not sure that you speak for all "thinking conservatives", first of all.  and quite frankly, I am running out of patience for this line of reasoning.  when president obama nationalizes what left of the private health care industry, confiscates your income, and strips the defenses of this country, I don't want to hear any bitching out of the people that stayed home on election day.

As I have stated more than once, I've seen presidents come and go, and have managed to minimize the impact of hundreds of bad decisions made by politicians of both parties......I don't bitch, I compensate.....and so far have managed to do OK for myself and my family.  I certainly am not threatened by a president Obama, or another Clinton......if that is what the voters want.......we will compensate and survive.

However, when it comes to my vote, and the personal integrity that it represents to me, I find it difficult to grant that great priviledge to an individual that obviously views me with distain......no one is asking you to defend McCain....he is a big boy, and is perfectly capable of making a political loser out of himself without anyone else's assistance......

doc

[Wretched Excess]

I'm not sure that you speak for all "thinking conservatives", first of all.  and quite frankly, I am running out of patience for this line of reasoning.  when president obama nationalizes what left of the private health care industry, confiscates your income, and strips the defenses of this country, I don't want to hear any bitching out of the people that stayed home on election day.

As I have stated more than once, I've seen presidents come and go, and have managed to minimize the impact of hundreds of bad decisions made by politicians of both parties......I don't bitch, I compensate.....and so far have managed to do OK for myself and my family.  I certainly am not threatened by a president Obama, or another Clinton......if that is what the voters want.......we will compensate and survive.

However, when it comes to my vote, and the personal integrity that it represents to me, I find it difficult to grant that great priviledge to an individual that obviously views me with distain......no one is asking you to defend McCain....he is a big boy, and is perfectly capable of making a political loser out of himself without anyone else's assistance......

doc

well, I am coming off much more caustically than I intend to.  or so I was just informed.

but I think I may have uncovered where our viewpoints diverge.  it's about more than individuals.  in fact, I don't really see (or perhaps I just don't want to see) the federal government as an important element in my life.  it's about first principles and character.  in fact, "character", according to our founders, is the most important requirement for the job.

the choice couldn't be more compelling in this election cycle.

[Chris_]

well, I am coming off much more caustically than I intend to.  or so I was just informed.

but I think I may have uncovered where our viewpoints diverge.  it's about more than individuals.  in fact, I don't really see (or perhaps I just don't want to see) the federal government as an important element in my life.  it's about first principles and character.  in fact, "character", according to our founders, is the most important requirement for the job.

the choice couldn't be more compelling in this election cycle.

I think we are really in agreement, at least conceptually, I (we) too, have always viewed the federal government as more of an obstacle to be "worked around" than an overall benefit in our personal lives. 

I won't argue that McCain is a man of character, and that the founders placed that above all attributes in a public servant, it is his "principles" that I take issue with, and that, IMHO comes in a close second.

Overall, I have unflagging faith in our constitutional concept of "balance of powers", in that regardless of who sits in the White House, they will be unable to take the nation off on any great tangents in either direction.  Perhaps the best example of all is FDR, whose "New Deal" is blamed by pundits for launching the country on the road to a "welfare state".  For all that he attempted, he failed, compromised, or diluted most of those efforts, and the ones that he accomplished were no where near as onerous as one might imagine if you actually look at what was initially proposed.....and he had FOUR TERMS to try to get it done.......

I guess that it just chaps my ass that the Republican party can't come up with a better candidate than we are stuck with.....the talent is certainly out there....

doc

[DixieBelle]

^Agree about the character component. I also believe that while it's hard for a president to turn this nation on it's head in a single term (hold the snark please ) we must look ahead to the years after this term, SCOTUS, etc...your comment earlier about imagining a Gore administration rightfully gave you chills. Everyone should go stand in front of a mirror and say, "President Obama (or President Clinton) today......." and see how it feels. Now, a lot of people are going to say well the govt isn't really that influential in my life (like you did) and there is truth to that. Again, it's pretty hard to turn the nation on a dime - look at Pelosi's mandate for change in 06 (giggle) she's been frustrated and outmaneuvered at almost every turn but yet has still managed to cause havoc. Another thing to consider is that we are a nation at war. I prefer Commander in Chief McCain to any other option at this point.

I am disappointed in the Republican party. I also expected more. But I think we've gotten accustomed to our standards of living. It's going to have to be painful before it gets better. I just hope that pain is caused by President McCain (who can be dealt with) and not a President Obama (shudder!) or Clinton II (shudders twice).

[Chris_]

^It's hard for me to rationalize one of the criteria for selection of the next president as "wartime" or not, as I feel that the war in Iraq is essentially won, and the next president would have to do something really stupid to turn it into a loss, which would ultimately be a disaster for that president's political party.  Therefore regardless of who wins in November, the troops and the mission will remain until the job is completed.

As far as SCOTUS Justices are concerned, I can only look at the downside......it would be great if a president McCain were to appoint another Scalia to the court, but based on his history in the Senate on judicial issues, I maintain that there is absolutely no guarantee that he will do so......he is just as likely to appoint some "independent thinker" like himself who will morf into another Stevens or Kennedy on the bench.  Further, the justices who are lining up for retirement are basically all liberals, so if a democrat ends up in the white house, the court will at worst, remain ideologically much the same as it is.....

As history has taught, events have made great men out of "wimps" in the past, and again FDR and Pearl Harbor is a great example.  People elected to that office have a habit of "stepping up" to greatness whenever challenged by outside forces, more often than not......

doc

[DixieBelle]

I was speaking in terms of the larger war on terror, not just Iraq and Afghanistan. And yes, I do agree with your assessment on Iraq. But I don't trust either Dem candidate on the GWoT.

I'm not as optimistic about SCOTUS with a Dem in the White House. And McCain is no guarantee either. But I like my chances with him better than the other too fruitloops.

[Doc]

I was speaking in terms of the larger war on terror, not just Iraq and Afghanistan. And yes, I do agree with your assessment on Iraq. But I don't trust either Dem candidate on the GWoT.

I'm not as optimistic about SCOTUS with a Dem in the White House. And McCain is no guarantee either. But I like my chances with him better than the other too fruitloops.

Well....on the general WoT, if McCain wins, likely nothing will change....if the Dems win, they have a choice.....either continue to press forward, regardless of their campaign promises (remember, this is the same party that promised to bring down gas prices in 2006), or they can retreat to our borders, and risk another attack......which (God forbid) if it happens, will guarantee that they go back to minority status for another generation, depending on how bad the attack is.......They are in a really tough spot politically on this issue....

Never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate.......remember the Brits threw Churchill out after WW-II was won.......

There is always an ebb and flow to these things, and one must, as stated aptly by an ancient Chinese warlord, "bend like a reed in the wind....."

doc

[Duke Nukum]

great.  then entrust the custodianship of the entire country to obama.  I hope you can sleep at night.

The two most common ways that we are continually manipulated to get us to do what others want us to do is fear and guilt.

I've already rejected fear and I now reject guilt.

If I voted for McCain and Hilary or Obama ended up winning, then what?  I would have more trouble sleeping knowing I had voted against myself than rejecting this thin pretense.

Worse still, what if I voted for McCain, feeling as  I do now about him, and he won.  I should have many more sleepless nights.

McCain's job is to win my vote and he is doing a very poor job of it at this point.  It isn't my work to support someone simply because they aren't Hilary or Obama.  My job is to vote for the candidate I am for and right now, in this snapshot of time, I am not for any of these.  If McCain wants my vote, let him win it.  That is what candidates are supposed to do.

[Chris_]

great.  then entrust the custodianship of the entire country to obama.  I hope you can sleep at night.

The two most common ways that we are continually manipulated to get us to do what others want us to do is fear and guilt.

I've already rejected fear and I now reject guilt.

If I voted for McCain and Hilary or Obama ended up winning, then what?  I would have more trouble sleeping knowing I had voted against myself than rejecting this thin pretense.

Worse still, what if I voted for McCain, feeling as  I do now about him, and he won.  I should have many more sleepless nights.

McCain's job is to win my vote and he is doing a very poor job of it at this point.  It isn't my work to support someone simply because they aren't Hilary or Obama.  My job is to vote for the candidate I am for and right now, in this snapshot of time, I am not for any of these.  If McCain wants my vote, let him win it.  That is what candidates are supposed to do.

Your analysis is poor.  If hussein or mrs, clinton win because you sat out then it is at your feet.  The socialism to ensue is your fault.

Te perfect is the enemy of the good.

[Duke Nukum]

I'm not sure that you speak for all "thinking conservatives", first of all.  and quite frankly, I am running out of patience for this line of reasoning.  when president obama nationalizes what left of the private health care industry, confiscates your income, and strips the defenses of this country, I don't want to hear any bitching out of the people that stayed home on election day.

As I have stated more than once, I've seen presidents come and go, and have managed to minimize the impact of hundreds of bad decisions made by politicians of both parties......I don't bitch, I compensate.....and so far have managed to do OK for myself and my family.  I certainly am not threatened by a president Obama, or another Clinton......if that is what the voters want.......we will compensate and survive.

However, when it comes to my vote, and the personal integrity that it represents to me, I find it difficult to grant that great priviledge to an individual that obviously views me with distain......no one is asking you to defend McCain....he is a big boy, and is perfectly capable of making a political loser out of himself without anyone else's assistance......

doc

well, I am coming off much more caustically than I intend to.  or so I was just informed.

but I think I may have uncovered where our viewpoints diverge.  it's about more than individuals.  in fact, I don't really see (or perhaps I just don't want to see) the federal government as an important element in my life.  it's about first principles and character.  in fact, "character", according to our founders, is the most important requirement for the job.

the choice couldn't be more compelling in this election cycle.

I think you see what I am trying to say, it is not in my character to vote for someone who  I don't think as in the best interest of my country even if that person is marginally less bad than the other choices.  If I vote against my character, that is when I would do the real harm to myself and the country.  That is when I would feel guilt.

If I betray myself, I can betray anybody.

[Duke Nukum]

great.  then entrust the custodianship of the entire country to obama.  I hope you can sleep at night.

The two most common ways that we are continually manipulated to get us to do what others want us to do is fear and guilt.

I've already rejected fear and I now reject guilt.

If I voted for McCain and Hilary or Obama ended up winning, then what?  I would have more trouble sleeping knowing I had voted against myself than rejecting this thin pretense.

Worse still, what if I voted for McCain, feeling as  I do now about him, and he won.  I should have many more sleepless nights.

McCain's job is to win my vote and he is doing a very poor job of it at this point.  It isn't my work to support someone simply because they aren't Hilary or Obama.  My job is to vote for the candidate I am for and right now, in this snapshot of time, I am not for any of these.  If McCain wants my vote, let him win it.  That is what candidates are supposed to do.

Your analysis is poor.  If hussein or mrs, clinton win because you sat out then it is at your feet.  The socialism to ensue is your fault.

Te perfect is the enemy of the good.

My analysis is good.  Trying to manipulate opinion via guilt is what is poor.

If McCain loses it is McCain's fault.  What reason has he given anyone to vote for him? That is how it is supposed to work.  They are supposed to stand for something.  What does McCain stand for?

In this case, the perfect never gets a chance to be the enemy of the good.  Which one is the good?  I see marginal.  Maybe you mean the good is the enemy of the marginal and I don't have a problem with that.

If I vote for marginal, I will only have more marginal to vote for.  Marginal will be mistaken for demand and there is never a short supply.

[DixieBelle]

The right to vote also includes the right NOT to vote. It bothers me to think that so many people are considering that option. I get the concept - it's basically political tough love. I just shudder at the thought of what may come down the road. It takes a big person to knowingly withhold their vote when the opposition is so scary. Let's hope this conversation is all academic in a few weeks and that McCain truly does try to win over the real conservative base.

[rich_t]

I'm not sure that you speak for all "thinking conservatives", first of all.  and quite frankly, I am running out of patience for this line of reasoning.  when president obama nationalizes what left of the private health care industry, confiscates your income, and strips the defenses of this country, I don't want to hear any bitching out of the people that stayed home on election day.

As I have stated more than once, I've seen presidents come and go, and have managed to minimize the impact of hundreds of bad decisions made by politicians of both parties......I don't bitch, I compensate.....and so far have managed to do OK for myself and my family.  I certainly am not threatened by a president Obama, or another Clinton......if that is what the voters want.......we will compensate and survive.

However, when it comes to my vote, and the personal integrity that it represents to me, I find it difficult to grant that great priviledge to an individual that obviously views me with distain......no one is asking you to defend McCain....he is a big boy, and is perfectly capable of making a political loser out of himself without anyone else's assistance......

doc

AMEN Doc.  Well said.  I prefer to vote for a candidate that I can actually support vs. voting for one that I merely dislike less than the others.

I voted for GW Bush both times.  I did so because he was a candidate that I felt I could honestly support.  It had nothing to do with my dislike of Gore or Kerry.  Has Bush doen a few things I have disliked?  Yes.  Especially in his 2nd term.

After 9/11 happened on his watch I'd think he would have been more inclined to take our border security much more seriously, but now that we are hearing more and more about the North American Union and he seems to be on board with it..... (I haven't heard him speaking against it at any rate)

[rich_t]

The right to vote also includes the right NOT to vote. It bothers me to think that so many people are considering that option. I get the concept - it's basically political tough love. I just shudder at the thought of what may come down the road. It takes a big person to knowingly withhold their vote when the opposition is so scary. Let's hope this conversation is all academic in a few weeks and that McCain truly does try to win over the real conservative base.

I don't have the actual numbers handy at the moment, but I have seen reports that indicate that a large percentage of the eligible voters don't bother to even register, much less actually vote.  I personally think it is more a matter of political apathy than political tough love.

My own parents don't vote as they think just about all politicians are liars and professional snake oil salesmen.  They have seen their share of them come and go and are speaking from their own personal experinces.

[Chris_]

I think voter participation is somewhere between 38-50% percent.  I don't have a source for that, but that seems to be what I hear anecdotally during every election season when the talking heads start doing their election "analysis".  I remember seeing some European country with 60% turnout referred to as a high turnout.

[USA4ME]

Trying to manipulate opinion via guilt is what is poor.

I agree.  This guilt trip stuff is for the birds.

There are those here who dislike McCain but will vote for him anyway because "he's the best of the worst."  I can understand and respect that motivation.  There are those who won't vote for McCain at all because of how he's conducted himself in the past.  I also understand and respect that motivation.  I'm fully convinced that all the various sides see and understand the motives behind what others are saying.  I'm also fully convinced both sides have carefully weighed whatever decision they have made, it wasn't just made on a whim.  But at the end of the day, we all have to make our own choices, and I don't see how pointing fingers and making accusations towards one another is going to change things or make it any better, it's only going to create unnecessary strife.

Someone tells me they're holding their nose and voting McCain, then fine, they gotta do what they gotta do.  Someone tells me McCain has done too much wrong to ever get their support, then fine, they gotta do what they gotta do.  I'm not going to get down on any fellow conservative doing what they believe they should or shouldn't do on this matter.  This is a political board, we all have friends here that we differ with on this whole issue, but let's not let it create divisions over what we individually have decided we can and cannot do regarding all this.  To me, that would be the real tragedy.

.

[Ptarmigan]

do you recall the last time a legitimately elected democratic government was overthrown via armed insurrection?

Sorry if I butt in. There have been legitimately elected democratic governments overthrown by armed insurrections, but they occurred outside of America.