Author Topic: The backlash: Reform turns personal  (Read 14303 times)

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Offline DefiantSix

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2010, 08:26:44 PM »
Shit!
I'm drinking - give me a break!

You are correct - I agree that the Second Amendment was not intended to demand we march on Washington every time some politician screws things up or a group of us get all pissy over some politics.

Who would regulate the citizens militia though and under what conditions?

The central principle of the republic that the Founders established was SELF REGULATION.  That's why such a big, overpowering government was anaethma to them.  There was no need for a library of laws and hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats with guns to govern Americans, because the American Republic was originally peopled with individuals who had sufficient self discipline to govern themselves.

To get back to that central principle, we as a people need to re-develop that self discipline that was the pre-requisite.
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Offline PatriotGame

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2010, 08:30:01 PM »
You are aware that Lord Zero has "authorized" eminent domain rights to the ChiComs as backing for the bonds he's selling them, aren't you?

WTF??
HUH??

What COULD this entail? Grabbing my home or nut sack because or our national debt?
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Offline DefiantSix

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2010, 08:39:33 PM »
And if the people are behind it....and the SCOTUS deems it unconstitional...the whole country will breathe a sigh of relief.

And what if Lord Zero resurrects an oldie (but a goodie) from Andy Jackson's administration when the Supreme Court rules against him:

Quote from: Andrew Jackson
"John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!"
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."
-- Capt. John Parker

"I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission"
-- Capt. Steve Rogers

"In this present crisis, government in not the solution to our problem, government IS the problem."
-- Ronaldus Magnus

Offline PatriotGame

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2010, 08:42:04 PM »
The central principle of the republic that the Founders established was SELF REGULATION.  That's why such a big, overpowering government was anaethma to them.  There was no need for a library of laws and hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats with guns to govern Americans, because the American Republic was originally peopled with individuals who had sufficient self discipline to govern themselves.

To get back to that central principle, we as a people need to re-develop that self discipline that was the pre-requisite.

Oh I do agree.

Fat chance with a huge portion of the population in the "vote with my wallet gimme, gimme, GIMME" mode.


Guess I'll just stay drunk....

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Offline Chris_

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2010, 08:43:54 PM »
And what if Lord Zero resurrects an oldie (but a goodie) from Andy Jackson's administration when the Supreme Court rules against him:


Well....that would be a good time to enforce it ourselves, not unlike recent events in Nicaragua.....if they can do it, we sure as hell can....

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Offline 5412

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2010, 08:54:46 PM »
Hi Folks,

I have read this entire thread and am trying to make sense out of what appears to be several conversations.  Here is my take on things for what it is worth.

1.  If you follow the line of Sol Alinsky, they want martial law to be declared, they want chaos so our society as we know it can be destroyed, wealth be confiscated and a new society built around their model.    Right now there are something like 80,000 troops being trained to deal with civil unrest in our country.  Obama is engineering an economic collapse, indeed the poster who said the government is shorting the gold and silver markets is totally correct.  If the banks collapse, then it could easily affect the food supply and bingo they have the chaos they want.

2.  I also agree with the poster that is implying it is not time to take the bait and start shooting, that just makes it easier to sell the public on declaring martial law.  A well known fact is people will give up freedom for security, most every communist dictator who has taken over a free society knows the process well.

3.  Patience in battle should not be confused with temperance or forgiveness, it is just as much a strategy as a sniper waiting for the perfect opportunity.  I personally believe the health care bill in one step toward communism in America according to the master plan of Obama and those like Ayers who educated and funded him.  At the same time, the best battle is for the hearts and minds of the American people.  Just keep educating, writing letters to the editor, doing what you have to keep what is happening fresh in the minds of those who you interact with regularly.

4.  Expect the worst.  Yeah, I mean total civil unrest, breakdown of the food supply, etc.  If one has been smart enough to prepare to protect their family; particularly with food etc. those that did not do so will come a'knocking on your door demanding you share, meaning you will all die because the supply is not adequate.  Hope for the best and prepare for the worst, meaning keep a low profile, but be damn sure you do all you can to survive for a good 30-60 days on your own.  One might recall that it was Van Jones or one of the Obama commies that even commented that they are going to come and take your farms.  Big mistake if you ask me because farmers understand a lot of things and one thing is they will form a militia to protect themselves very well, just like some of us are quietly doing in our neighborhood.  We will not go on offense but I would tell you we will protect our homeland with the same ferocity as a mother protecting her young.

5.  I feel we can beat these bastards at their own game.  Stall, delay, do what you must to avoid the catastrophe because if we can get through the fall election cycle and then again in 2012 the ship, with the right crew, can be fixed.  I can tell you this from personal experience.  I travel a good bit, and speak to folks all over the world on the phone.  The bulk of the working producers in society know exactly what is going on and don't like it one bit.  There was an article in the Tampa paper about the congresswoman from Tampa who voted for the health care bill.  They said the demographics of her district was 50% democratic, 25% republican and 25% independent so they concluded she had nothing to worry about.  I would not be so damn sure, even if 50% are registered democrats, they ain't all too happy with how things are going either.

6.  I see great value in laying low and even letting some shots be fired and not returning fire, but rather rhetoric.  There is something to be said for creating the illusion of being defeated to your enemy.  If anyone read Gingrich's book, "These are the times that try men's souls", it is a perfect example of that.  The country was demoralized, congress was running from Washington, soldiers were deserting and Thomas Paine helped come to the rescue by gathering the hearts and minds of many Americans.  Then on a cold, freezing winter night George Washington attacked the totally unsuspecting British and Hessian soldiers and it turned the tide of the war.  Why was it successful?  For many reasons.  One I feel that is not always brought up is this.  The goal of war is to destroy your enemy and their will to fight.  The British foolishly thought they had destroyed our will and found out that was not the case.

What was it Sara Palin's father said.  "She is not quitting, she is reloading."

I really do suspect the press is trying to fan the flames to give the government an excuse to clamp down on the public.  Until we discover who actually did those stupid things, we should sit back and not cast judgment.  Be patient, prepare for the worst, be vigilant, and we will all know when it is time to go on offense.  First major offensive starts in the fall just before the elections.  We plan on meeting Glenn Beck at the foot of the Lincoln Memorial in August.  We are attending his class next Saturday in Orlando.  I will post information which I feel appropriate after we get back.

Stay cool, prepare your tool...

regards,
5412

Offline PatriotGame

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2010, 09:07:04 PM »
Hi Folks,

I have read this entire thread and am trying to make sense out of what appears to be several conversations.  Here is my take on things for what it is worth.

1.  If you follow the line of Sol Alinsky, they want martial law to be declared, they want chaos so our society as we know it can be destroyed, wealth be confiscated and a new society built around their model.    Right now there are something like 80,000 troops being trained to deal with civil unrest in our country.  Obama is engineering an economic collapse, indeed the poster who said the government is shorting the gold and silver markets is totally correct.  If the banks collapse, then it could easily affect the food supply and bingo they have the chaos they want.

2.  I also agree with the poster that is implying it is not time to take the bait and start shooting, that just makes it easier to sell the public on declaring martial law.  A well known fact is people will give up freedom for security, most every communist dictator who has taken over a free society knows the process well.

3.  Patience in battle should not be confused with temperance or forgiveness, it is just as much a strategy as a sniper waiting for the perfect opportunity.  I personally believe the health care bill in one step toward communism in America according to the master plan of Obama and those like Ayers who educated and funded him.  At the same time, the best battle is for the hearts and minds of the American people.  Just keep educating, writing letters to the editor, doing what you have to keep what is happening fresh in the minds of those who you interact with regularly.

4.  Expect the worst.  Yeah, I mean total civil unrest, breakdown of the food supply, etc.  If one has been smart enough to prepare to protect their family; particularly with food etc. those that did not do so will come a'knocking on your door demanding you share, meaning you will all die because the supply is not adequate.  Hope for the best and prepare for the worst, meaning keep a low profile, but be damn sure you do all you can to survive for a good 30-60 days on your own.  One might recall that it was Van Jones or one of the Obama commies that even commented that they are going to come and take your farms.  Big mistake if you ask me because farmers understand a lot of things and one thing is they will form a militia to protect themselves very well, just like some of us are quietly doing in our neighborhood.  We will not go on offense but I would tell you we will protect our homeland with the same ferocity as a mother protecting her young.

5.  I feel we can beat these bastards at their own game.  Stall, delay, do what you must to avoid the catastrophe because if we can get through the fall election cycle and then again in 2012 the ship, with the right crew, can be fixed.  I can tell you this from personal experience.  I travel a good bit, and speak to folks all over the world on the phone.  The bulk of the working producers in society know exactly what is going on and don't like it one bit.  There was an article in the Tampa paper about the congresswoman from Tampa who voted for the health care bill.  They said the demographics of her district was 50% democratic, 25% republican and 25% independent so they concluded she had nothing to worry about.  I would not be so damn sure, even if 50% are registered democrats, they ain't all too happy with how things are going either.

6.  I see great value in laying low and even letting some shots be fired and not returning fire, but rather rhetoric.  There is something to be said for creating the illusion of being defeated to your enemy.  If anyone read Gingrich's book, "These are the times that try men's souls", it is a perfect example of that.  The country was demoralized, congress was running from Washington, soldiers were deserting and Thomas Paine helped come to the rescue by gathering the hearts and minds of many Americans.  Then on a cold, freezing winter night George Washington attacked the totally unsuspecting British and Hessian soldiers and it turned the tide of the war.  Why was it successful?  For many reasons.  One I feel that is not always brought up is this.  The goal of war is to destroy your enemy and their will to fight.  The British foolishly thought they had destroyed our will and found out that was not the case.

What was it Sara Palin's father said.  "She is not quitting, she is reloading."

I really do suspect the press is trying to fan the flames to give the government an excuse to clamp down on the public.  Until we discover who actually did those stupid things, we should sit back and not cast judgment.  Be patient, prepare for the worst, be vigilant, and we will all know when it is time to go on offense.  First major offensive starts in the fall just before the elections.  We plan on meeting Glenn Beck at the foot of the Lincoln Memorial in August.  We are attending his class next Saturday in Orlando.  I will post information which I feel appropriate after we get back.

Stay cool, prepare your tool...

regards,
5412

I love all you wrote but please remember:

THIS IS NOT FRACKING APRIL 19, 1775!

The dynamics are orders of magnitude different and I can guarantee you 0bama and Sal and Rham and Pelosi and Reid and Barney Frank have calculated in all the new factors.

This ain't gonna be like a bunch of semi-organized rag-tag militia types gathering up arms and shooting back at 700 soldiers.

WE ARE NOT ORGANIZED AT ALL!!!!!


I will leave that last statement open.

Elaborate....
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Offline Javelin

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2010, 09:17:16 PM »
I love all you wrote but please remember:

THIS IS NOT FRACKING APRIL 19, 1775!

The dynamics are orders of magnitude different and I can guarantee you 0bama and Sal and Rham and Pelosi and Reid and Barney Frank have calculated in all the new factors.

This ain't gonna be like a bunch of semi-organized rag-tag militia types gathering up arms and shooting back at 700 soldiers.

WE ARE NOT ORGANIZED AT ALL!!!!!


I will leave that last statement open.

Elaborate....

Not being organized is what we need.  We CANNOT WIN if we attempt to organize.  They have total advantage in the geometry of warfare.  Air, Land, Sea, Armor, we cannot win against that.  An organized attempt would mean total devastation for the people of the USA.

Our strength is within our disorganization.  Pockets here and there.  Lack of organization forces them to guess at where to place assets in all logistical forms.  You will appear near them when you are actually far away.  When you appear far away you will be near them.  When you are unorganized they cannot levy the full force of their might against you. 

You are thinking in the terms of Chess where a tactical victory is obtained.  Think more in the terms of the Chinese game GO.  You control pockets of territory that can shift and is mobile, scattered throughout a region. 

A militia is not an army.  Its a group of like minded people that love their families that own land, farms, assets and come together for a common cause.  You communicate with the people within your area, help them, provide what you can for them, gain their trust and aid.  You already have a militia, everyone does.  Its a matter of terminology and concept. 

An organized army fears disorganization more than anything.  Use the strengths you have to your advantage while your strength plays to their weakness.  Let things develop naturally.  There is no need to become Rambo.  Get to know your neighbors now, help them now, develop the relationships you need.  This is all part of preparation.

Offline 5412

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2010, 09:18:03 PM »
Hi,

The government in the US cannot govern without the consent of the governed.  They can pass laws all they want, train soldiers all they want but I seriously doubt too many of those who will try to depress our society are likely to start shooting at us.  They have decided to take National Guard units, if martial law is declared, and put them in different states other than their home states knowing full well they will not fire on their own.  What they are not factoring in is many states may well call their boys home "to protect their homeland".  

Ok what is my point?  For any dictatorship to emerge the army has to support that dictator.  I do not see that happening.  I can forsee the day where BO tries to suspend elections under martial law when Tommy Franks, Norman Schwartzkof or the current guy who made the surge work that I cannot recall his name at the moment, drops in and say to the president it is all over, time to step aside.  Any one of those three men will have the moral authority to lead in the eyes of most Americans as they try to restore order and set up a duly democratic election process once again.

What I am hoping happens is the congress in 2010 fools the democrats and starts with a constitutional amendment for congressional term limits.  It would be immensly popular, last poll I saw it had something close to 90% support of the public.  

I read an article tonight on terrorism and what they see for the future.  One of the major points they made was one soldier, very inexpesively can take out a $100 million helicoptor, a tank and even a large contingent of soldiers with a single home made bomb.  We are an armed, and very intellignet society who, when threatened can protect ourselves very well.  Particularly when the enemy does not have the consent of the governed.

And finally, while some scoff at me, I can forsee the day that several southern and southwestern states just say the hell with it and secede.  Ain't gonna be too many of the welfare class willing to step forth and put their lives on the line to save the union.



regards,
5412
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 09:28:03 PM by 5412 »

Offline Eupher

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2010, 09:20:42 PM »
Hey, that is all fine and well man. Be part of the solution or be succumbed to the problem. It is your life and I fully believe that giving in will get YOUR nuts cut off.

There's no doubt what you believe in, PG. Anarchy.

It's a good thing that cooler heads are prevailing. You strike me as being hotheaded and out of control. That's fine, everybody needs to blow off steam once in a while.

And leave my nuts alone -- while my youngest child is in her mid-20s and I'm definitely done having young 'uns, I like having Bert and Ernie around a while longer, thanks.
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Offline Javelin

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2010, 09:26:53 PM »
There's no doubt what you believe in, PG. Anarchy.

It's a good thing that cooler heads are prevailing. You strike me as being hotheaded and out of control. That's fine, everybody needs to blow off steam once in a while.

And leave my nuts alone -- while my youngest child is in her mid-20s and I'm definitely done having young 'uns, I like having Bert and Ernie around a while longer, thanks.

I dont believe that PG believes in Anarchy.  I can tell there are a lot of Glenn Beck watchers here lol.  No problem with that, but there is much that Beck does not go into, well he cant. 

The problem comes from people having used their system, and it failed them.  Welcome to my frustration for years now.  People simply do not know what to do next. 

I can see that there are a lot of people that are walking around right now saying WTF....  Like they are in a daze of disbelief.  Give it time, let them educate themselves.  People typically seek answers before they go crazy. 

Offline Eupher

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2010, 09:31:16 PM »
I dont believe that PG believes in Anarchy.  I can tell there are a lot of Glenn Beck watchers here lol.  No problem with that, but there is much that Beck does not go into, well he cant. 

The problem comes from people having used their system, and it failed them.  Welcome to my frustration for years now.  People simply do not know what to do next. 

I can see that there are a lot of people that are walking around right now saying WTF....  Like they are in a daze of disbelief.  Give it time, let them educate themselves.  People typically seek answers before they go crazy. 

Let him speak for himself, Jav. He got all worked up in a tizzy, so it would appear, ably assisted by John Barleycorn. Again, it's all good.

But even those who profess to be drunk when they're ranting are spouting the truth as they understand it.

You know -- in vino, veritas.
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Offline 5412

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2010, 09:34:54 PM »
I dont believe that PG believes in Anarchy.  I can tell there are a lot of Glenn Beck watchers here lol.  No problem with that, but there is much that Beck does not go into, well he cant. 

The problem comes from people having used their system, and it failed them.  Welcome to my frustration for years now.  People simply do not know what to do next. 

I can see that there are a lot of people that are walking around right now saying WTF....  Like they are in a daze of disbelief.  Give it time, let them educate themselves.  People typically seek answers before they go crazy. 

Hi,

We live on a small street that ends in a cul-de-sac.  Likely no more than 25 or so homes.  I know three of us are armed to the teeth and think very much alike.  I was reloading in the garage one day and a neighbor came by walking his dog.  One thing led to another and bingo, I realized we had another well prepared.  We also have many that are just as you describe, very confused to say the least.

The fact today a judge ordered one of the 9/11 guys released because evidence that was gathered was a result of sleep deprivation and Obama calls that torture has a lot of folks going WTF.  Each and every event like that will solidify that they do not like what they see.  Wont be long if things continue, that need be those of us that are well armed will have folks banging on our door asking what to do.  I spoke with a true product of the hippy generation recently who has never owned a weapon in his life and likely spoke out aginst it.  He asked me what kind of weapon he should buy.  Not the first time this has happened to me and my guess is many of you have had a similar experience.  My friends at the local gun store get several of those a week.

The longer we wait, the more people will get things figured out, and the better off we will be.

regards,
5412

Offline debk

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2010, 09:48:17 PM »
From my perspective I believe that 10 years is very very optimistic.  Here is why.

If you take a look at our Debt to GDP ratio, you can find it here http://www.usdebtclock.org/ in the top right hand corner you will see our current Debt to GDP.  Its at 88.3%.  Many economist are now using Greece as our current benchmark for trouble.  Yet with this, many consider that the USA is already in some terms on the same level as Greece.  Yet by the end of the year we should be at or close to 93 or 94% Debt to GDP.  So to break this down into real terms.

As we reach that level the amount of debt to income compared to what we are spending becomes lethal.  For example, China has been selling some of our debt already which some said would never happen or that it would happen years from now.  In short, its harder to borrow, and to borrow we must face higher yield rates (interest rates).

Also add in the fact that if rates go up on our debt it effects all things within the nation.  Add onto the fact that the US government has become a player in the market via banks and mortgages the compounding effects would kill them financially and rather quickly. 

Another factor is that currently the Government is suppressing the metals, well other natural resources as well within the markets.  Essentially they have shorted the markets to suppress prices as they keep low interest rates to tame inflation.  These short positions must be covered and they must "double down" in order to keep riding this wave which many believe they cannot afford to do.  Current positions equal one years production of various resources.

Also if any of the EU nations go down, such as Greece, or even Portugal, the ripple effect would wipe us out rather quickly.  We are all tied to the hip and there is no way to stop it.

This Jan rates on commercial real estate began to reset.  Currently there are about 45 percent or so of these mortgages under water.  Once these defaults begin to hit it will make the housing crisis look like Sunday pick-nick.  If we survive the initial impact, the EU zone will not.  The backlash from the EU will kill us.

All of these various real possible scenarios could happen within 18 months.


The way I understand the EU....the "PIIGS" countries - Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.....were not on the same economic level as Germany and France when they joined the EU.

At first there was an adjustment period, while the various individual countries currency switched over. But now that time has passed, the PIIGS are in trouble, particularly with what has happened with Japan, GB and our economies.

When I was in Ireland in 2004, their economy was booming. People had fairly new cars, a lot of construction was happening, jobs were plentiful. Since then, Pfizer has pulled out a great deal of their production if not all. HP has reduced their work force, Waterford Crystal which has been around for centuries has declared bankruptcy and ceased all production except for some specialty items like the Super Bowl trophy, NCAA football and basketball (?) trophies, and a couple of major golf tournaments. Ireland has gone from the height of prosperity to the tank.

Greece is, as we all know, on the verge of collapse. Italy is in trouble.

Spain and Portugal aren't getting much press, but they too, are in trouble.

China is selling the US paper to the mid-East countries.

Eventually the well is going to be bone dry and the US government....if it continues with it's ridiculous idea of chop another tree, make paper and print money....is going to be sitting around that well wondering what happened to the water with the PIIGS.

We, as the People....have got to start paying attention and elect people who are going to be fiscally responsible and work collectively to yank this country out of the spend, spend, and spend more mentality.

To hell with which party an individual belongs to....we must find people who can be responsible and SANE....who want this country to be great again.

Sitting around talking about breaking windows, shootin' at people who don't think the way we do.....is not the answer, solution or any other similar term. Violence only begets more violence. It's much tougher to fight using intelligence than to fight with fists, sticks and stones.

I'm not advocating sitting back and allowing someone else to beat on us....just saying not to be the first to use the violence. We must start with using our collective intelligence.
Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

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Offline Javelin

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2010, 09:55:04 PM »
Hi,

We live on a small street that ends in a cul-de-sac.  Likely no more than 25 or so homes.  I know three of us are armed to the teeth and think very much alike.  I was reloading in the garage one day and a neighbor came by walking his dog.  One thing led to another and bingo, I realized we had another well prepared.  We also have many that are just as you describe, very confused to say the least.

The fact today a judge ordered one of the 9/11 guys released because evidence that was gathered was a result of sleep deprivation and Obama calls that torture has a lot of folks going WTF.  Each and every event like that will solidify that they do not like what they see.  Wont be long if things continue, that need be those of us that are well armed will have folks banging on our door asking what to do.  I spoke with a true product of the hippy generation recently who has never owned a weapon in his life and likely spoke out aginst it.  He asked me what kind of weapon he should buy.  Not the first time this has happened to me and my guess is many of you have had a similar experience.  My friends at the local gun store get several of those a week.

The longer we wait, the more people will get things figured out, and the better off we will be.

regards,
5412

I share the same experience as you.  I live out in the country.. well... some say in the middle of nowhere lol.  I have a couple neighbors a few football fields away.  I have spoke with close friends that also are coming around and seeing what I am doing.  

When I first came out of service, I didnt even own a weapon.  Now I am armed to the teeth.  Everything from armor piercing ammo (yes its legal in my state  :tongue: )to portable solar panels for recharging communication gear.  Out in the country where I am at you need these things anyway or your potentially putting your families life on the line.  Well the AP ammo (Yes AP is legal in my state  :tongue: ) may not be needed, but anyway you know what I am saying.

Heirloom seeds are a must.  Also knowledge of how to get a gas engine to run off of wood gas is imperative.  Basic tools a must.  Topo maps (good for hunting too), and at least 3 months canned food supply.  People better be learning to can food if nothing else.  Just get a pressure cooker, a basic recipe book and buy some stuff from your local farmers market to start with.  Good knowledge.

It takes time to get things together, but its doable and people will be more confident for it.  The Libs will think we are crazy but hey this is how our grandparents lived.  For them, it was normal.  I have had several people already ask if they could come to my place if the SHTF.  I know them well and said sure, hey I have the extra rifles anyway and if I am lacking any my neighbor has enough for a friggin platoon.

For the uninitiated a book called "Back to the Basics" is a good start on many things.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 10:16:23 PM by Javelin »

Offline Javelin

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2010, 10:00:56 PM »

To hell with which party an individual belongs to....we must find people who can be responsible and SANE....who want this country to be great again.

Sitting around talking about breaking windows, shootin' at people who don't think the way we do.....is not the answer, solution or any other similar term. Violence only begets more violence. It's much tougher to fight using intelligence than to fight with fists, sticks and stones.

I'm not advocating sitting back and allowing someone else to beat on us....just saying not to be the first to use the violence. We must start with using our collective intelligence.

My sentiments precisely.  Yet as your post stated (part I edited out lol) the economics is lethal.  Due to the mathematics and current commitments the USA has made, I really do not believe that we have time left for anyone to fix it.  Now that opinion is by no means solid, just my opinion based upon the math, trajectory and  velocity.  I am an investor now as a civilian and I do not put money where I dont think I need it.  I am not easily persuaded to go into "crazy land" yet I am now a member as the Left would define me anyway.

Its hard to argue with mathematics, its unemotional and it doesnt really care about the politics.  Yet I will say, I damn hope your right, and I am wrong.

Offline debk

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2010, 10:20:46 PM »
My sentiments precisely.  Yet as your post stated (part I edited out lol) the economics is lethal.  Due to the mathematics and current commitments the USA has made, I really do not believe that we have time left for anyone to fix it.  Now that opinion is by no means solid, just my opinion based upon the math, trajectory and  velocity.  I am an investor now as a civilian and I do not put money where I dont think I need it.  I am not easily persuaded to go into "crazy land" yet I am now a member as the Left would define me anyway.

Its hard to argue with mathematics, its unemotional and it doesnt really care about the politics.  Yet I will say, I damn hope your right, and I am wrong.


I think we are probably a both a bit right and both a bit wrong.  My other half has a BS in mechanical engineering and a BA in economics. He's very concerned. And very angry at what's happening in Washington.
Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate.

"My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far I've finished two bags of M&M's and a chocolate cake. I feel better already." – Dave Barry

A balanced diet is chocolate in both hands.

Offline PatriotGame

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2010, 10:27:40 PM »
There's no doubt what you believe in, PG. Anarchy.

It's a good thing that cooler heads are prevailing. You strike me as being hotheaded and out of control. That's fine, everybody needs to blow off steam once in a while.

And leave my nuts alone -- while my youngest child is in her mid-20s and I'm definitely done having young 'uns, I like having Bert and Ernie around a while longer, thanks.

Nope my friend - me do NOT like anarchy!

Jest hate liberals and democrats.

There be a big difference my friend.
Please, stop trying to institutionalize and intellectualize this.
It ain't gonna work with me.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 10:36:16 PM by PatriotGame »
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Offline PatriotGame

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2010, 10:28:32 PM »
There's no doubt what you believe in, PG. Anarchy.

It's a good thing that cooler heads are prevailing. You strike me as being hotheaded and out of control. That's fine, everybody needs to blow off steam once in a while.

And leave my nuts alone -- while my youngest child is in her mid-20s and I'm definitely done having young 'uns, I like having Bert and Ernie around a while longer, thanks.

BTW - being an ass here - it is apparent you dropped your nuts long ago.
-sorry...
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Offline PatriotGame

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2010, 10:34:13 PM »
Let him speak for himself, Jav. He got all worked up in a tizzy, so it would appear, ably assisted by John Barleycorn. Again, it's all good.

But even those who profess to be drunk when they're ranting are spouting the truth as they understand it.

You know -- in vino, veritas.

Yea, before I sucked the booze, I wrote my first post because I was.....disillusioned.
Seems to me that I have a penchant for seeing reality in a different light. It is a clearer manner now for me than what you based my knowledge of history and the methods of the left.

Shame on me for KNOWING Alinsky, 0bama, Pelosi have a demonstrated HATE for our freedoms.

You musta me ****ed up et al!
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Offline 5412

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2010, 10:41:58 PM »

The way I understand the EU....the "PIIGS" countries - Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.....were not on the same economic level as Germany and France when they joined the EU.

At first there was an adjustment period, while the various individual countries currency switched over. But now that time has passed, the PIIGS are in trouble, particularly with what has happened with Japan, GB and our economies.

When I was in Ireland in 2004, their economy was booming. People had fairly new cars, a lot of construction was happening, jobs were plentiful. Since then, Pfizer has pulled out a great deal of their production if not all. HP has reduced their work force, Waterford Crystal which has been around for centuries has declared bankruptcy and ceased all production except for some specialty items like the Super Bowl trophy, NCAA football and basketball (?) trophies, and a couple of major golf tournaments. Ireland has gone from the height of prosperity to the tank.

Greece is, as we all know, on the verge of collapse. Italy is in trouble.

Spain and Portugal aren't getting much press, but they too, are in trouble.

China is selling the US paper to the mid-East countries.

Eventually the well is going to be bone dry and the US government....if it continues with it's ridiculous idea of chop another tree, make paper and print money....is going to be sitting around that well wondering what happened to the water with the PIIGS.

We, as the People....have got to start paying attention and elect people who are going to be fiscally responsible and work collectively to yank this country out of the spend, spend, and spend more mentality.

To hell with which party an individual belongs to....we must find people who can be responsible and SANE....who want this country to be great again.

Sitting around talking about breaking windows, shootin' at people who don't think the way we do.....is not the answer, solution or any other similar term. Violence only begets more violence. It's much tougher to fight using intelligence than to fight with fists, sticks and stones.

I'm not advocating sitting back and allowing someone else to beat on us....just saying not to be the first to use the violence. We must start with using our collective intelligence.

Hi,

I get several reports daily about the economy, gold etc.  Seems the Chinese have reduced the amount of US debt they own for the last several months.  They also took a lot of our debt and bought gold and copper mines in Canada.  The most damning article today said basically our government better be very careful as we are really pissing them off.

In Greece it is really getting ugly.  The rest of the European common market countries have no appetite for bailing out Greece because their government has not done much to even attempt to rein in spending.  They recently introduced some ideas and the unions in Greece went bananas in protest.  What we will carefully watch is this.  Folks who have been feeding at the government trough are going to see the handouts become smaller and smaller and they are going to react in predictible fashion.  Hopefully we will learn from this because that is what is going to have to take place in this country if we are to survive as a free capitalistic society.

Not only is the government manipulating the gold and silver market, there is no evidence that the stock market should have gained back all the losses in the last year.  From what I read one anynomous buyer, after the market close each day, has been buying S&P futures or something that caused the market to rise.  Certainly the rise is not a result of business improving sales and profits in the least.

It is gonna get really ugly.  Cash for clunkers and the housing subsidies are going to stop and then the market will truly fall to the proper level.

regards,
5412

Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2010, 10:44:52 PM »
Hi Folks,

I have read this entire thread and am trying to make sense out of what appears to be several conversations.  Here is my take on things for what it is worth.

1.  If you follow the line of Sol Alinsky, they want martial law to be declared, they want chaos so our society as we know it can be destroyed, wealth be confiscated and a new society built around their model.    Right now there are something like 80,000 troops being trained to deal with civil unrest in our country.  Obama is engineering an economic collapse, indeed the poster who said the government is shorting the gold and silver markets is totally correct.  If the banks collapse, then it could easily affect the food supply and bingo they have the chaos they want.

2.  I also agree with the poster that is implying it is not time to take the bait and start shooting, that just makes it easier to sell the public on declaring martial law.  A well known fact is people will give up freedom for security, most every communist dictator who has taken over a free society knows the process well.

3.  Patience in battle should not be confused with temperance or forgiveness, it is just as much a strategy as a sniper waiting for the perfect opportunity.  I personally believe the health care bill in one step toward communism in America according to the master plan of Obama and those like Ayers who educated and funded him.  At the same time, the best battle is for the hearts and minds of the American people.  Just keep educating, writing letters to the editor, doing what you have to keep what is happening fresh in the minds of those who you interact with regularly.

4.  Expect the worst.  Yeah, I mean total civil unrest, breakdown of the food supply, etc.  If one has been smart enough to prepare to protect their family; particularly with food etc. those that did not do so will come a'knocking on your door demanding you share, meaning you will all die because the supply is not adequate.  Hope for the best and prepare for the worst, meaning keep a low profile, but be damn sure you do all you can to survive for a good 30-60 days on your own.  One might recall that it was Van Jones or one of the Obama commies that even commented that they are going to come and take your farms.  Big mistake if you ask me because farmers understand a lot of things and one thing is they will form a militia to protect themselves very well, just like some of us are quietly doing in our neighborhood.  We will not go on offense but I would tell you we will protect our homeland with the same ferocity as a mother protecting her young.

5.  I feel we can beat these bastards at their own game.  Stall, delay, do what you must to avoid the catastrophe because if we can get through the fall election cycle and then again in 2012 the ship, with the right crew, can be fixed.  I can tell you this from personal experience.  I travel a good bit, and speak to folks all over the world on the phone.  The bulk of the working producers in society know exactly what is going on and don't like it one bit.  There was an article in the Tampa paper about the congresswoman from Tampa who voted for the health care bill.  They said the demographics of her district was 50% democratic, 25% republican and 25% independent so they concluded she had nothing to worry about.  I would not be so damn sure, even if 50% are registered democrats, they ain't all too happy with how things are going either.

6.  I see great value in laying low and even letting some shots be fired and not returning fire, but rather rhetoric.  There is something to be said for creating the illusion of being defeated to your enemy.  If anyone read Gingrich's book, "These are the times that try men's souls", it is a perfect example of that.  The country was demoralized, congress was running from Washington, soldiers were deserting and Thomas Paine helped come to the rescue by gathering the hearts and minds of many Americans.  Then on a cold, freezing winter night George Washington attacked the totally unsuspecting British and Hessian soldiers and it turned the tide of the war.  Why was it successful?  For many reasons.  One I feel that is not always brought up is this.  The goal of war is to destroy your enemy and their will to fight.  The British foolishly thought they had destroyed our will and found out that was not the case.

What was it Sara Palin's father said.  "She is not quitting, she is reloading."

I really do suspect the press is trying to fan the flames to give the government an excuse to clamp down on the public.  Until we discover who actually did those stupid things, we should sit back and not cast judgment.  Be patient, prepare for the worst, be vigilant, and we will all know when it is time to go on offense.  First major offensive starts in the fall just before the elections.  We plan on meeting Glenn Beck at the foot of the Lincoln Memorial in August.  We are attending his class next Saturday in Orlando.  I will post information which I feel appropriate after we get back.

Stay cool, prepare your tool...

regards,
5412

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Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2010, 10:48:01 PM »
Hi,

I get several reports daily about the economy, gold etc.  Seems the Chinese have reduced the amount of US debt they own for the last several months.  They also took a lot of our debt and bought gold and copper mines in Canada.  The most damning article today said basically our government better be very careful as we are really pissing them off.

In Greece it is really getting ugly.  The rest of the European common market countries have no appetite for bailing out Greece because their government has not done much to even attempt to rein in spending.  They recently introduced some ideas and the unions in Greece went bananas in protest.  What we will carefully watch is this.  Folks who have been feeding at the government trough are going to see the handouts become smaller and smaller and they are going to react in predictible fashion.  Hopefully we will learn from this because that is what is going to have to take place in this country if we are to survive as a free capitalistic society.

Not only is the government manipulating the gold and silver market, there is no evidence that the stock market should have gained back all the losses in the last year.  From what I read one anynomous buyer, after the market close each day, has been buying S&P futures or something that caused the market to rise.  Certainly the rise is not a result of business improving sales and profits in the least.

It is gonna get really ugly.  Cash for clunkers and the housing subsidies are going to stop and then the market will truly fall to the proper level.

regards,
5412

I think the economy will dip again this year. Quite frankly, I don't see much of a recovery anytime soon. Greece is in a sorry state because of their elaborate socialistic welfare program. Bailing them out is not a good idea because it will happen again in the future and will be worse.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
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Offline debk

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2010, 01:01:13 AM »
I think the economy will dip again this year. Quite frankly, I don't see much of a recovery anytime soon. Greece is in a sorry state because of their elaborate socialistic welfare program. Bailing them out is not a good idea because it will happen again in the future and will be worse.


I can certainly attest to the fact that housing sales sucked in February. Even though I had one sale, I lost 3 listings because no one was looking at them. One was a foreclosure, it went to another agent, price was down to $35,500, from a beginning price in Oct of $44,900, it's still available. One is a flip and they took it off the market to try and rent it. In October, we started with $74,900 and it was down to $59,900 when it was withdrawn. It isn't rented yet, ( she's trying for $700/mo) and she's thinking about putting it back on the market. The other one is a fair market resale, started at $224,900 and was down to $214,900 when we took it off. They are thinking of tearing out the wall between the kitchen and dining room to see if it will help sell it. All of three of these were priced below market value. Our market is just so over saturated that days on market time is increasing and sellers who have to sell are dropping the prices as much as they can even to the point of bringing cash to the closing table.

Our neighbors up the street just listed their house the first of the week at $123 per SF. Two years ago....houses in here, were $250-300 per SF.  :bawl:

We are just beginning to see the housing market hit the dumper again. Obviously not everywhere in the country will be affected. However, a lot of places will be simply because with the HCB signed, I think we are going to see job loss increase, and in many areas....there are just not the replacement jobs at the same or similar, salary available. Most households that bought houses in the last 10-15 years have bought them based on two incomes. If the larger income is the one that is removed, people are either going to walk away from their houses or lose them to foreclosure through no fault of their own. There are very few lenders who are actually working with people to help keep them in their homes. I don't know who these lenders think are going to buy all these foreclosures going on the market. At least here, there just are no where near as many buyers as there are properties.

At least for all those ARM's that were on 3 and 5 year adjustments, and this is their year, the interest rates have not significantly changed. Yet. 2005 was a booming year for house sales.   
Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate.

"My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far I've finished two bags of M&M's and a chocolate cake. I feel better already." – Dave Barry

A balanced diet is chocolate in both hands.

Offline TheSarge

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Re: The backlash: Reform turns personal
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2010, 04:32:51 AM »
Yea, before I sucked the booze, I wrote my first post because I was.....disillusioned.
Seems to me that I have a penchant for seeing reality in a different light. It is a clearer manner now for me than what you based my knowledge of history and the methods of the left.

Shame on me for KNOWING Alinsky, 0bama, Pelosi have a demonstrated HATE for our freedoms.

You musta me ****ed up et al!

Now now PG...you know the 100%'ers on here don't have time for logic and reason when they're in the middle of their "throw them all out they're all alike" BS.


And back to the title of the OP...first off let me apologize for now wading through 5+ pages of stuff to see if this question has been asked and/or answered...but where's the proof?

Other than the word of a bunch of Liberal Dems whom we know will lie to prove their point anyway...where it the proof that any of this alleged violence or threat there of actually happened?

Further how do we know that it wasn't some disgruntled DUmmie...Huffer or Kos Kiddie that did it because they dind't approve single payer.

Til I see something that comes close to actual proof I believe this about as much as I do Slaughter's story about the woman using her dead sisters false teeth.
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