DCCC Takes On Fox News

[Mike220]

Wow. Thread derailment due to Hitler...15 yard penalty and no first down.

Godwin's Law in action...

[The Village Idiot]

I don't know where that chart came from. Why should I trust it?

People have been getting Hitler wrong for decades on purpose. German National Socialist Workers Party. Same side of the coin as Hitler in any respects.

Anyone who thinks he was a small government conservative is an abject idiot.

[Doppelganger]

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm

Any extremism carried out to its logical ends is scary. Hitler was more conservative than liberal... that does not mean that the average conservative has ideals like Hitler's any more than the average liberal has ideals like Stalin's.

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.

[thundley4]

In 0BamaLand , private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the unions and state.

[The Village Idiot]

Here is a comment I left at Niles Gardner's Telegraph UK Blogs

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100024086/state-of-the-union-obama-gets-an-f-for-world-leadership/

It was a chest thumping would-be totalitarian in front of that podium saying “forget what the American want” and saying that he is not going to change directions.

He was Hugo Chavez without the medals and invective.

His diss of the SCOTUS ruling will be remembered forever as the day a President declared himself King of America.

I guess despite the ruling he will try to find a way to ban the books, films etc that he calls “feloniously political”. How dare the people think that they have a right to criticize their rulers!

How dare they believe that they can pool their resources and buy ads condemning a candidate. What do these little peasants think they have a right to assemble? association? speech?

Free speech is only for whomever Barack Obama says it is for! You are not supportive enough of Lord eVader to be allowed speech, begone!

And its George Bush’s forever and ever.

All hail King Barack, he is The One… do notice his shiny new clothes.

[Doppelganger]

In 0BamaLand , private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the unions and state.

Totally agreeing with you there, friend.

The corporate corruption is rampant. If I trusted the Republican Party any more than I did the Democrats, and I thought that they would do something about the corruption, I'd vote for them... but I don't.

That's why I think this is the time for a grassroots third party to emerge. The ideal time. If that party was centrist to slightly centrist-conservative - sort of like Thomas Jefferson was for his time - if they could control the middle 20% of the vote or so, perhaps even less than that, they could wield enormous power with the swing vote. Enough power to force the other two sides into sensible compromise.

There are quite a lot of states right now that don't like either choice they're being presented with. 72 congressional districts, if I recall correctly, are expected to be 'swing' districts in our next congressional elections. That's 72 areas to hit hard with big grassroots campaigning. Don't accept any corporate funding, and anyone who proves themselves untrustworthy, boot out immediately. The goal would have to be going for just one or two seats at first. Don't aim for the presidency, because for an unknown third party to even think of taking the Whitehouse would be like a kid who has never fought before trying to take on Mike Tyson. But you would have to keep it moderate, keep it focused on solutions as low-drama and sensible as possible, and keep your ambitions strictly on becoming a 'swing' party that could act to enforce reason and compromise.

Finally, use your newly-gained publicity to force corruption laws through. Purge both sides of corporate interests (and insane communists) because they will be forced to vote in favor of the vast part of the American populace, who will want reform. To do otherwise will be political suicide.

They'd have to be kept corruption free from the ground up, though. This would be the key.

[The Village Idiot]

I doubt that will happen while 95% of the media has taken sides with fascism and expect to benefit from it. Who is going to build those "high speed" trains to white elephant land? General Electric maybe? NBC/MSNBC/CNBC. It doesn't matter if they take a dime from GE, they know GE will push for them in their broadcasts and they will scratch GE's back. The politicians don't need to accept a penny from a corporation to make laws and budget items favoring one business over another.

When SEIU sends out a million volunteers (often paid to be there) for the Democrat Party during the campaigns, they don't need a dime from them to know whose side they are on and you get "Card Check" legislation. Big Pharma and Big Insurance ran how many tens of millions in ads for ObamaCare, under the rules Obama wants to go back to?

Why is it okay for George Soros to spend $100 million to run ads bashing capitalism if its illegal for me and my friends to buy a single local TV ad? I supposedly have freedom of association but Obama would deny that Association the right to have one political word even though the First Amendment was specifically drafted to prevent suppression of political ideas.

But yet this administration argued in front of the Supreme Court for the power to BAN BOOKS, FILMS and other media that mentions a candidate by name. Don't think for a second this would not include talk radio and the internet. They specifically said broadcasting and they even used a Kindle as an example.

The SCOTUS made the right decision.

[Doppelganger]

I know. As I said, the corruption is rampant, including in campaigns. It needs to be fixed.

So do personal rights infringements and unnecessary entitlement programs.

And again, it would have to be a totally grassroots movement. It's likely the media would not endorse such a third party at first. But the internet's a great tool. You could target those 'swing' districts with online coordination. Flood local congressional districts with flyers, door-to-door campaigning, lawn candidate support signs, and the like. Make it a largely online campaign, which the media cannot regulate.

Laws on restricting corporate ads for politicians would be one of the first things to hammer through after the party was established enough to start proposing such legislation. And by then, things would be too well-publicized, the party too big and able to put out its own message, for the corporate/fascist media to simply quash it with unrecognition.

[Oceander]

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm

Any extremism carried out to its logical ends is scary. Hitler was more conservative than liberal... that does not mean that the average conservative has ideals like Hitler's any more than the average liberal has ideals like Stalin's.

Hitler was radically liberal - in the sense that "liberal" now has - not conservative; the fact that he built a part of his liberal edifice on the old Teutonic gods does not change the fact that he was liberal - none of the millenialist extremists in this country have been conservatives, either; they've all attempted to exert total, absolute power over every aspect of the lives of their followers - that is a completely different universe from the one in which conservativism holds sway.

[Doppelganger]

And so Godwin makes a comeback...

absolute power over every aspect of the lives of their followers - that is a completely different universe from the one in which conservativism holds sway.

Yes, I know. The political compass does not have just two cardinal points, it has four. Those are right/left and authoritarian/anarchist. Saying 'right' is 'authoritarian' is just like saying 'north' is 'east' - it's patently impossible.

However, saying 'north' and 'west' - or liberalism - are the same is also just as wrong.

[The Village Idiot]

Forced eugenics, aborting or letting die unpure babies, Hitler Youth
oh and one of the first things they did on taking power was nationalizing
the welfare system that had been run through churches.

He also used much of the same rhetoric as the commies.

[Doppelganger]

But what about the other things he reflected in his speeches?

Individualism over collectivism.
Racism or racial segregation over racial tolerance.
Eugenics over freedom of reproduction.
Merit over equality.
Competition over cooperation.
Power politics and militarism over pacifism.
One-person rule or self-rule over democracy.
Capitalism over Marxism.
Realism over idealism.
Nationalism over internationalism.
Exclusiveness over inclusiveness.
Meat-eating over vegetarianism.
Gun ownership over gun control
Common sense over theory or science.
Pragmatism over principle.
Religion over secularism.

[Oceander]

And so Godwin makes a comeback...

Yes, I know. The political compass does not have just two cardinal points, it has four. Those are right/left and authoritarian/anarchist. Saying 'right' is 'authoritarian' is just like saying 'north' is 'east' - it's patently impossible.

However, saying 'north' and 'west' - or liberalism - are the same is also just as wrong.

You're welcome to be as stupid as you wanna be; that doesn't change facts, and the fact of the matter is, what Hitler was, is what liberalism in America is today.

[Doppelganger]

What a sad little denial, without any factual proof to back it up.

I won't argue that liberalism in this country has become just as rabid and blind as conservatism has, though. You've both got a while to go towards 'Hitler', but not that far.

[Oceander]

What a sad little denial, without any factual proof to back it up.

That you're stupid?  You're still here, what other proof do I need?

[The Village Idiot]

But what about the other things he reflected in his speeches?

Individualism over collectivism. please.
Racism or racial segregation over racial tolerance. Racism is leftist
Eugenics over freedom of reproduction. Leftist, read Margaret Sanger/George Bernard Shaw
Merit over equality. merit? loyalty to him you mean
Competition over cooperation. There was no competition, everything was regulated to the nth degree
Power politics and militarism over pacifism. Again, thats leftist/statist. Conservatism is leave me alone
One-person rule or self-rule over democracy. self-rule? He had dictatorial rule. Thats not conservative.
Capitalism over Marxism. There was no capitalism as we know it, it was a command economy
Realism over idealism. hahahaha... he didn't even live in the real world
Nationalism over internationalism. True. I already mentioned that I think
Exclusiveness over inclusiveness.
Meat-eating over vegetarianism. He was a veggie
Gun ownership over gun control Adolph seized all the private guns, one of the forst things they did
Common sense over theory or science.
Pragmatism over principle.
Religion over secularism. religion? He was anti-jew, anti-Catholic, anti-Christian

[Doppelganger]

You know, it's funny, if I posted my original post on a leftist forum, only I'd said Hitler was leftist, they'd have done exactly what you just did, going through and saying 'racism is conservative', 'eugenics is conservative', 'militarism is conservative'...

It seems you agree on more than you think, you're just falsely letting the authoritarians tell you that the other side is 'evil'.

Let's pretend I'm liberal for a moment, which, a few years ago, I was.

Do you believe racism is bad?
Do you believe Eugenics are bad?
Do you believe power politics and militarism/military hostility are bad?
Do you believe dictatorship is bad?
Do you believe forced state religion/state control over religion is bad?

Most liberals' answer to all of those would be yes. So would most conservatives'.

There might be some differences, but not as many as we're being fooled into thinking. Big Brother has you hoodwinked, and meanwhile the American populace, who are mostly good, morally sound people, are so busy blaming one another that the problem of authoritarianism has grown unnoticed.

[The Village Idiot]

The leftists are the ones who vote for those people. They are statists. The DU site is full of statists.

[The Village Idiot]

By the way here is a good article written by a libertarian pointing out how business and stuff actually operated under Hitler.

http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=507

No capitalism and free markets will you find.

[Doppelganger]

FGL, I won't even argue with you - I don't believe you're totally correct, but I'll just give it to you. Uncle.

Here's the thing: even if liberalism is bad, most liberals aren't bad people.

And even if conservatism was bad, most conservatives aren't bad people.

I don't believe either is bad. I believe there are merits to both sets of values. But I believe authoritarianism, plutarchism, totalitarianism - call it what you want, I believe this is what has taken root in our system and what's made it dysfunctional and increasingly hostile to the American people.

You and I are not enemies. In fact I bet nearly everybody on this board is against racism, against eugenics, against dictatorship and power politics, against everything on that list... and yet if I were to believe the common stereotype that is propagated about conservatives on the liberal side and come here thinking it was true, I would think you believed in all of those things.

And if I believed the conservative side about liberals, I would think that most liberal Americans are authoritarian, racist, and power hungry... they are not.

Most Americans are fundamentally good. We must start out believing this, and stop believing the authoritarians in power who try to get us to fight amongst ourselves.

[The Village Idiot]

Do you believe racism is bad?

Liberals are racists. They believe minorities need government because they cannot help themselves.

Do you believe Eugenics are bad?

Liberals practice eugenics. Margaret Sanger is their hero, abortions are their sacrament.

Do you believe power politics and militarism/military hostility are bad?

Liberals are not pacifists, they simply want to disarm the other side before they put them against the wall and kill them. This happens where the leftists take power.

Do you believe dictatorship is bad? The left love Castro, Hugo Chavez and the rest. Wasn't it Friedman who said our government should be autocratic like China?
Didn't leftwing NEWSWEEK proclaim we are all socialists now?

Do you believe forced state religion/state control over religion is bad?

Liberals want to crush religion. Have you not been paying attention?

[Doppelganger]

Damn it, man! Do you get what you just did? You listened to me tell you that most American people are, at heart, good people, and you countered by telling me all liberals are evil.

Do you believe every person in this country who voted for Barack Obama was evil? An evil person? Do you believe over half of the American people are evil? Do you believe roughly half of the country, give or take, are authoritarian evil-doers who need to be exterminated? Because if all people on the left are as evil as you paint them to be, if there is nothing between 'liberal' and 'conservative' and no room for reason, then you might as well start the killing now.

You have a lot of people to go through.

[The Village Idiot]

I think government needs to stop propping up failed businesses. AMTRAK, GM etc
I think government needs to stop funding private entities like Planned Parenthood or ACORN or charities.
I think government needs to stop putting up entry barriers to force less competition.
I think all welfare programs should be consolidated into one monthly cash payment not large enough to be comfortable on.
I think the government needs to stop trying to regulate the market.
I think government needs to stop bestowing benefits to non-citizens who came here illegally.
I think the government needs to get out of the banking, home loan and student loan business.
I think all forms of corporate and agricultural subsidies/quotas/licenses need to end.
I think government needs to get out of the school business.
I think government should not own land it does not need for a legitimate governing reason. Like a court house.
I think government has no business operating or funding TV channels, radio networks, art or anything else.

[The Village Idiot]

Do you believe every person in this country who voted for Barack Obama was evil? An evil person? Do you believe over half of the American people are evil?

Of course not. Uneducated, easy to fool and command come to mind.

[Doppelganger]

I think government needs to stop popping up failed businesses. AMTRAK, GM etc

Agreed.

I think government needs to stop funding private entities like Planned Parenthood or ACORN or charities.

For the most part, agreed. These should be things that should be created by people who are interested in creating them, not the government that is supposed to represent us all.

I think government needs to stop putting up entry barriers to force less competition.

Agreed, though I believe in this day and age it should be obvious that corporatism needs to be limited. Or at least the reach of corporate power into government or individual rights.

I think all welfare programs should be consolidated into one monthly cash payment not large enough to be comfortable on.

A damned good idea, though difficult to put into practice. We need to trim a lot of unnecessary spending at a time like this.

I think the government needs to stop trying to regulate the market.

Agreed. The banks, corporations, etc. that fail need to be allowed to fail. If capitalism is to succeed, it must succeed on its own merits.

I think government needs to stop bestowing benefits to non-citizens who came here illegally.

Agreed.

I think the government needs to get out of the banking, home loan and student loan business.

Very much agreed.

I think all forms of corporate and agricultural subsidies/quotas/licenses need to end.

Agreed.

I think government needs to get out of the school business.

Hm, somewhat agreed. But what if a really poor community cannot even afford a school? I do think local governments should be held accountable somehow for maintaining some sort of school system or at least ensuring that one exists for an area, but yes, I think the government is far too involved in our education.

I think government should not own land it does not need for a legitimate governing reason. Like a court house.

Agreed.

I think government has no business operating or funding TV channels, radio networks, art or anything else.

Agreed.

Of course not. Uneducated, easy to fool and command come to mind.

And you may well be right, FGL. Although some liberals are very educated and I don't necessarily think all educated liberals are evil.

The point I want to make is, those people are good. At heart, you and I know they do not believe in totalitarianism and authoritarianism. They have to be made to see that they are endorsing those things with our current government. I don't think it's possible with the Republican Party because that party is already too corrupt and too sold out to corporate America, just like the Democratic party.

Some other party needs to be put into power, and it needs to be the kind of party that is inherently good but does not strive to identify itself as liberal or conservative, because that would scare otherwise good people away. Many, many people have been lied to by our system.