Author Topic: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt  (Read 4478 times)

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Offline thundley4

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John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« on: April 29, 2011, 07:02:39 PM »
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VATICAN CITY, April 29 (UPI) -- Final preparations for the beatification ceremony for Pope John Paul II continued Friday at the Vatican.

The pope's coffin was taken out of a crypt under St. Peter's Basilica, the BBC reported. The wooden coffin and a vial of John Paul's blood will be displayed before the high altar in St. Peter's during the beatification Sunday.

John Paul is to be re-interred under an altar in St. Peter's. The pope, who died in 2005, appears to be on a fast track for canonization, or sainthood.

The Vatican says 87 international delegations are expected to be present Sunday and at least 22 heads of state. Queen Elizabeth II of Britain is to be represented by her cousin, Richard, duke of Gloucester.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/04/29/John-Paul-IIs-coffin-moved-from-crypt/UPI-48731304118646/#ixzz1KxZw4oMZ


I don't think I've ever seen something like this.

I caught something of this on Fox News, and something about live coverage. If their network, PMSNBC covers it, the DUmmies heads will explode.

Offline Chris_

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2011, 07:05:12 PM »
The whole thing seems a little creepy to me.  Is he going to be in the coffin when they show it off?

I am not a Catholic and I've only been to one Mass, so I'm ignorant of all the the little ins and outs that have been established over the centuries.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline RightCoast

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2011, 07:05:37 PM »
Who is barack sending? The Third Assistant Deputy Undersecretary to the Janitor?
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Offline thundley4

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2011, 07:07:30 PM »
Who is barack sending? The Third Assistant Deputy Undersecretary to the Janitor?

He will appoint some Muslim to go.

Offline Splashdown

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2011, 08:35:59 PM »
The whole thing seems a little creepy to me.  Is he going to be in the coffin when they show it off?

I am not a Catholic and I've only been to one Mass, so I'm ignorant of all the the little ins and outs that have been established over the centuries.

Chris, I'm not a priest, but I'll try to answer your question.

Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints, which basically means that the Church has three basic parts--The Church Militant (Christians on Earth), the Church Suffering (Christians who have died but have not made it into heaven yet--ie Purgatory), and the Church Eteranal (Christians in Heaven, ie. saints).

Because of this Communion of Saints, we believe that we have a living, lasting connection with Christians throughout time. Pope John Paul II will be venerated as "blessed," a step on the path to sainthood, which is basically the church's way of saying that this person is definitely in heaven. Here's how NEWADVENT.ORG, a great Catholic encyclopedia, explains Catholics' relationship to their saints:

Quote
Hence, while we love and venerate the saints who were so dear to God, we also venerate all that belonged to them, and particularly their bodies, which were once the temples of the Holy Spirit, and which are some day to be conformed to the glorious body of Jesus Christ. "whence also", adds St. Thomas [Aquinas], "God fittingly does honour to such relics by performing miracles in their presence [in earum praesentia]."

link

Respect and veneration of relics have been around from the earliest days of the church.
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Offline thelaughingman

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2011, 08:42:59 PM »
Blood and corpses in coffins.  Seems a little death cultish, doesn't it?

Offline Chris_

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2011, 08:46:03 PM »
I remember a group of men in vestments parading around with a gilded cross on a stick and a large, decorated book.  The entire episode seemed a little strange to me.  I was never raised in any church and never went to Sunday school.  I didn't attend church voluntarily until I was in high school and started going to a friend's congregation which turned out to be Pentecostal, which is not what I was exposed to in the under-18 services they held... those were more straightforward worship services without all the props and antics I saw later.  The over-elaborate details that Catholics placed on Mass felt odd to me, like we were supposed to worship these objects they carried around with them and not the Holy Spirit of God and His Son.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 08:54:18 PM by chris_ »
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Splashdown

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2011, 09:44:29 PM »
One thing we can all agree on, Catholic and Protestant, is that the Beatification of JPII will probably set liberal heads afire. So it can't be that bad a thing... :-)
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Offline FreeBorn

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2011, 10:27:36 PM »
This may help to understand why catholics venerate their saints as many of them, hundreds of years after their deaths are not decomposed. These corpses are referred to as "incorruptables". They are not preserved, embalmed or mummified yet they exist in a life like state. Many have decomposed after several centuries yet there are over two hundred that have not to this day decomposed, some a thousand years old.

http://www.marypages.com/IncorruptBodies.htm

http://listverse.com/2007/08/21/top-10-incorrupt-corpses/


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Offline franksolich

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2011, 09:04:29 AM »
The whole thing seems a little creepy to me.  Is he going to be in the coffin when they show it off?

I am not a Catholic and I've only been to one Mass, so I'm ignorant of all the the little ins and outs that have been established over the centuries.

Well, I have no explanation, even though I'm Catholic.  I just assume it's all kosher.

If you however want to see "creepy," you might inspect the churches and monasteries in the socialist paradises of the workers and peasants (Russian Orthodox), where bodies of ancient bishops and other prelates, and saints, several hundred, even a thousand, years old, are on public display.  They're withered and all that, but not decomposed to dust yet.

There's probably a rational reason for it, but what it might be, I dunno.
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Offline CatholicCrusader

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2011, 04:10:08 PM »
Two things:

1) With regard to relics, I suggest people read this: http://www.catholic.com/library/Relics.asp

2) Our culture likes to hide things: We tuck abortion clinics off in cozy corners so as not to attract too much attention. We want old people to off themselves rather than be a burden. So we think its weird when the Church exhumes a body for this purpose. The Catholic Church spans 2000 years and all cultures. If anything is weird, its American culture viewed through the prism of Catholicism, not the other way around. Popes reigned centuries before there was a United States, and they will reign when the USA is dust. The faith endures.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 04:13:32 PM by CatholicCrusader »

Offline vesta111

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 07:10:08 AM »
Two things:

1) With regard to relics, I suggest people read this: http://www.catholic.com/library/Relics.asp

2) Our culture likes to hide things: We tuck abortion clinics off in cozy corners so as not to attract too much attention. We want old people to off themselves rather than be a burden. So we think its weird when the Church exhumes a body for this purpose. The Catholic Church spans 2000 years and all cultures. If anything is weird, its American culture viewed through the prism of Catholicism, not the other way around. Popes reigned centuries before there was a United States, and they will reign when the USA is dust. The faith endures.

Fascinating, the Faith endures as it's History has changed and mutated through the years.  To me the greatest mystery of all time is how the Faith has had it's baseline uncorrupted with 2000 years of growing knowledge and the 100+ spits in the Mother Church. 

The Saints who are on display or their body parts sent around the world boggles the mind, so far science cannot explain the body's that have gone against nature and physics to remain after death in a perserved state, this is not possible, but how could anyone going back in time 500 years have managed to pull off a hoax??????

Was it Melcom X who  was disinterred 30 years or so after death  for some reason his son insisted he view the body of his father that he was too young to remember ?????  Horrors, everyone tried to dissuade the now grown man from viewing his fathers body that after all this time would be just a skeleton.

After much argument and prayers the boy/son/man was allowed to be at the opening of his fathers coffin.

What drama this must have been for all involved as the coffin was slowly opened and ---GASP, the son looked at his father to find he was perfectally preserved as if he had died only the night before.   And the son was a [ excuse the pun] a dead ringer for his Dad.

Does this make Melcom X a saint.     Life is very strange, just when one believes in science, all comes the seemingly impossible to make one look to the stars and wonder if there is a higher power then science.






Offline CatholicCrusader

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 10:22:45 AM »
Fascinating, the Faith endures as it's History has changed and mutated through the years.......

The fundamental truths of the faith never change: They cannot since they are revealed by God. We may come to understand them more deeply as time goes by, and they may different applications at different times in history, but they never change.


Offline thundley4

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 10:23:59 AM »
The fundamental truths of the faith never change: They cannot since they are revealed by God. We may come to understand them more deeply as time goes by, and they may different applications at different times in history, but they never change.



Fair warning about Vesta, she is more than a little strange.

Offline CatholicCrusader

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 10:30:07 AM »
Fair warning about Vesta, she is more than a little strange.

Gottcha.

Love that avatar. LOL

Offline debk

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2011, 11:40:42 AM »
I remember a group of men in vestments parading around with a gilded cross on a stick and a large, decorated book.  The entire episode seemed a little strange to me.  I was never raised in any church and never went to Sunday school.  I didn't attend church voluntarily until I was in high school and started going to a friend's congregation which turned out to be Pentecostal, which is not what I was exposed to in the under-18 services they held... those were more straightforward worship services without all the props and antics I saw later.  The over-elaborate details that Catholics placed on Mass felt odd to me, like we were supposed to worship these objects they carried around with them and not the Holy Spirit of God and His Son.

The priests wear vestments that are in the colors reflecting the particular "season" of the church year. Each specific color worn has a specific meaning within the church.  Right now they are wearing white and gold/yellow, because white is the color of Easter, and also Christmas. During Lent, they wear purple vestments as purple represents penitence and mourning. The robes (vestments) for the priests are either picked out by the parish, or the priest himself. They can be very elaborate, or very plain, depending on who picked them out. At my particular church, each priest (we have 4) has chosen and purchased his own vestments. They are similar in style, and colors are exact, but may be different fabric or "decorated" differently. Our youngest and newest priest, has extremely elaborate robes compared with the other 3, his mother made them for him. There are several different specific articles of attire that a priest will wear, during a Mass or in everyday dress, that each have a specific meaning.

The "large decorated book" is the Bible. In my church, the most elaborate one has a hard "gold" cover, and is laid on the altar during the Mass. There is a much less decorated one that an acolyte holds for the priest to read from during the Mass when he is not at the altar.

The "gilded cross" represents both Jesus' death(He was crucified on a cross), but also His resurrection.

If the cross has the figure of Jesus on it, it is called a crucifix. There is alwasy a crucifix either on the wall behind the altar, or as a free-standing crucifix on the altar. Some churches also use a crucifix on a "stick" which is usually carried by an acolyte followed by other acolytes and/priests up the main aisle at the beginning of the Mass and then taken back down the main aisle at the end of the Mass. A cross or crucifix is also at the bottom of a rosary. The crucifix is a symbol representing Jesus' sacrifice (his death) for us sinners.

While it may have appeared that these items were "worshipped" they are actually "symbols" that represent something specific relating to God/Jesus Christ.

Catholic Churches always will have statues of The Virgin Mary, and may have statues of various saints -depending on what that particular church wants. These statues will have candles at their base, for people to light and ask for a specific prayer, blessing or in thanksgiving. These are not "idols".  

The sacraments (the Eucharist) of Communion - bread represents the body of Christ, and wine represents the blood of Christ. They are blessed by the priest during the Mass, and we take them into us, to represent taking Christ into us to remember Him until He returns. To a Catholic or an Episcopalian ...the bread and the wine ARE the body and blood of Christ.

To you it may seem elaborate....to me, and to many others...it's just the way of our Church. It's worshipful, ritualistic, symbolic, respectful, mostly solemn....yet intensely comforting.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 11:54:48 AM by debk »
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Offline CatholicCrusader

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Re: John Paul II's coffin moved from crypt
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 11:42:45 AM »
Some of your points might be worthy of their own threads.

(I also sent you a PM)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 11:46:31 AM by CatholicCrusader »