Author Topic: Singularities  (Read 11581 times)

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Offline Wineslob

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Singularities
« on: November 17, 2009, 10:59:01 AM »
and event horizons. Discuss.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2009, 11:13:24 AM »
and event horizons. Discuss.

You're kidding right?  I can think of a dozen textbooks on this subject, along with several thousand doctoral theses that don't even begin to cover the mass of knowledge, theory, and experimental speculation on this issue.......

It would be helpful for the discussion to be much more specific.......

You are kinda asking us to discuss "gravity"...

doc
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2009, 11:16:32 AM »
Maybe all that info got sucked into the black hole, doc.  :-)
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2009, 11:24:42 AM »
Maybe all that info got sucked into the black hole, doc.  :-)

Black holes: The pot holes in the super highway of space.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2009, 11:31:00 AM »
Black holes: The pot holes in the super highway of space.

I like to think of them in quantum terms........as massive garage doors into another space/time continuium.......

doc
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2009, 11:56:12 AM »
I like to think of them in quantum terms........as massive garage doors into another space/time continuium.......

doc

The problem would seem to lie in surviving the trip through them. Why haven't we found any reverse black holes?  Paris and Britney don't count.

Offline Doc

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2009, 12:26:52 PM »
The problem would seem to lie in surviving the trip through them. Why haven't we found any reverse black holes?  Paris and Britney don't count.

Quantum theory suggests that all points in time, as well as all states of matter exist simultaneously (just in different dimensions)......therefore, as we eventually master the concepts involved, time (and interstellar) travel becomes theoretically possible by moving through the quantum "foam" rather than building long-voyage vessels for space travel.......quantum theory also suggests that "reverse" black holes are the same as the ones that are "seen" in today's astronomy......the door is simply open in both directions.......as to whether we could survive passage.....until someone tries it, we won't know, but current thought on the subject is that there are far less traumatic means of accomplishing the same goal.  The simplest analogy that I can draw is why go over Niagara Falls in a barrel, when one could simply take the stairs and get to the same place.

In some quantum theorists view, a "black hole", formed by a collapsed star, is a rip in the space/time continuum, (similar to a safety valve, to oversimplify) where vast quantities of matter pass between dimensions (and times), and that their purpose is to achieve sort of an interdimensional "balance" in both mass and "time".......difficult to grasp considering that our concept of time as linear is fundamentally flawed, as we view it only in terms of the passage of our lives, i.e. personal perception......"time", in cutting edge physics, is not linear at all......

doc
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 12:48:03 PM by TVDOC »

Offline Wineslob

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2009, 03:34:32 PM »
Yeesh, ask a simple question.....






















 :tongue:

A good book that deals with the possibilities and deals with it in laymans terms is, if my memory is correct, The Iron Sun (published in the 80's I think), but is NOT based the current iron sun theory.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2009, 06:38:39 PM »
You're kidding right?  I can think of a dozen textbooks on this subject, along with several thousand doctoral theses that don't even begin to cover the mass of knowledge, theory, and experimental speculation on this issue.......

It would be helpful for the discussion to be much more specific.......

You are kinda asking us to discuss "gravity"...

doc

That's easy.  Stuff falls.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2009, 09:58:28 AM »
That's easy.  Stuff falls.

Or in laymans terms....."the earth sucks"......

doc
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2009, 10:21:59 AM »
Yeesh, ask a simple question.....

 :tongue:

A good book that deals with the possibilities and deals with it in laymans terms is, if my memory is correct, The Iron Sun (published in the 80's I think), but is NOT based the current iron sun theory.

Well.....since about 90% of our body of knowledge regarding singularities has been discovered in the past 15 years, what good is a book that was written nearly three decades ago?

I have not read the volume that you site, however, if it describes the "aging star" theory, whereby as a star ages, the fusion reaction within it depletes its elemental fuel supply, and it transitions successively to fusion reactions with heavier and heavier elements, until it finally reaches the level of iron.........then I am familiar with this theory, and there is factual evidence to support the concept, at least in part........current thought supports the idea that an aging star will collapse from its internal gravitational mass at a point on the periodic table somewhat before iron in order to go "supernova", or collapse into a "black hole".

The presence of the vast amounts of iron (and other heavy metals) in the universe further supports the theory that at  least some stars (or other celestial bodies) devolved in that manner at some point in the "Big Bang" process......there are other schools of thought however.....

doc
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2009, 10:45:06 AM »
Correct on the "Aging Star" theory. IMO it still makes more sense than the iron sun theory.

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Offline Thor

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2009, 11:26:33 AM »
I'm not real fond of the "Big Bang" theory........ It's all supposition and seems like a drug induced fascination.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2009, 12:44:14 PM »
I'm not real fond of the "Big Bang" theory........ It's all supposition and seems like a drug induced fascination.

Actually it isn't supposition, as we now are able to measure the continued acceleration of all of the matter in the universe outward from a theoretical central point.........and the slowing of that acceleration over time.

It is now theorized that at some future date, all of the matter in the universe will slow, stop, and then begin a "reverse acceleration" toward another cataclysmic event.......where perhaps it will explode all over again, and has been following this cycle since time began.....

doc
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2009, 04:53:55 PM »
Actually it isn't supposition, as we now are able to measure the continued acceleration of all of the matter in the universe outward from a theoretical central point.........and the slowing of that acceleration over time.

It is now theorized that at some future date, all of the matter in the universe will slow, stop, and then begin a "reverse acceleration" toward another cataclysmic event.......where perhaps it will explode all over again, and has been following this cycle since time began.....

doc

That's what they thought and taught when I went to college 40+ years ago...not any more.

I read awhile back they have found enough matter at the far distant outer portions of the universe that it should continue to expand forever.
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Offline vesta111

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2009, 04:29:42 AM »
That's what they thought and taught when I went to college 40+ years ago...not any more.

I read awhile back they have found enough matter at the far distant outer portions of the universe that it should continue to expand forever.

First thing that pops into my poor old frazzled brain is water displacement.

Say the universe is akin to a peacefull lake. One can drop a 2 pound rock into it and watch the ripples as the rock sinks to the bottom. any small debris such as leaves or twigs floating near by are pushed away from the sight of the splash as the ripples will force them to move away from the site. when the rock hits bottom all the gunk and mud on the bottom will blast upwards float for a few minutes then sink to the bottom again.

If the lake is bottomless that rock will continue to fall, not straight down as it will drift from side to side as the layers of water change in dencity and temperature.  The mass of the rock will not change but outside forces will cause it to either move downward faster or slow it down some.  That rock will never attain neutral buoyancy. 

As the rock falls it causes a hole in the water and sucks smaller particle in the water to fill the hole behind it while pushing against water under it.

If one were to lay under 3 feet of water and had that 2 pound rock hit you in the head, it just may kill you, but, if you are 200 feet down the velocity is slowed enough so you may just feel a slight tap as it continues to fall.

V/x /m/x/g/= e     Velocity times mass times gravity  equals the effect that rock will have on the surrounding matter. IE [e ] for effect.

The mass of the rock never changes but all else around it is effected to some degree. some what like a catalyst, it in itself never changes but causes changes all it touches if for only a short time. 

We know there is gravity in space holding our planets in place as the speed about each other or a sun,  The rogues are the comets that that have gained velocity and are going too fast to be caught, like our moon and held to the gravity of any planet. These rogues are the off shoot, like the debris of  the lake bottom the rock caused to fly upward when it hit bottom. The more mass that hits bottom the larger clumps of gunk are spewed in all directions and the faster they travel.

Then Lord help us is the friction caused by any object in our waters or way out there. I remember when the Navy had to degauss some subs as their movements had caused some kind of an electronic build up because of the material they were built with.

This all comes down to displacement in our universe of the calm lake one fishes at.

Just a theory from my addled mind, good or bad, this makes sense to me, may be utter rubbish to you.
















Offline Doc

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2009, 12:52:38 PM »
That's what they thought and taught when I went to college 40+ years ago...not any more.

I read awhile back they have found enough matter at the far distant outer portions of the universe that it should continue to expand forever.

The existance of matter at the outer fringes was predicted by Einstein's Theory of General Relativity, however until we understand it from the prospective of quantum relativity, we will not know for certain........

Quote
Huge advances in Big Bang cosmology were made in the late 1990s and the early 21st century as a result of major advances in telescope technology in combination with large amounts of satellite data, such as that from COBE and the Hubble Space Telescope. In 2003, NASA's WMAP takes more detailed pictures of the universe by means of the cosmic microwave background radiation. The image can be interpreted to indicate that the universe is 13.7 billion years old (within one percent error) and that the Lambda-CDM model and the inflationary theory is correct. No other cosmological theory can yet explain such a wide range of parameters, from the ratio of the elemental abundances in the early Universe to the structure of the cosmic microwave background, the observed higher abundance of active galactic nuclei in the early Universe and the observed masses of clusters of galaxies.

Source: Caltech/NASA "Report on the Future of the Big Bang Theory", circa Aug.27, 2008 (not on the net)

Just because the theory was taught 40 years ago, does not mean that it isn't accurate.......

doc

« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 01:06:33 PM by TVDOC »

Offline Aaron Burr

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 03:03:20 PM »
Hmmm. I thought the other camp on this issue had determined that the universe is expanding ever faster and faster. We should just wait for AL Gore to settle the debate.

But about those singularities...

One of the most alarming aspects of this discussion for me is the idea that we might be able to somehow travel through these things to another place. It's analogous to a cave man looking at a fire and deciding to jump in it to see where all that wood went to.

It's a singularity. All matter gets squashed down to sub atomic particles and jettisoned back out into normal space via it's "north" and "south" poles as x-rays.

Or they explode.

I've read that some stop collecting matter after a few billion years and grow "cold".

We may discover other dimensions, who knows? But they'll most likely be suffering from global warming too so what's the point.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 03:26:47 PM by Aaron Burr »

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 10:34:45 PM »
There is matter out there that is dark.

I've heard that much.

Apparently these clouds help keep solar systems together like the plastic rings on a 6-pack of beer.

Scientifically speaking.

Offline kenth

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2010, 10:00:02 AM »
There is matter out there that is dark.

I've heard that much.

Apparently these clouds help keep solar systems together like the plastic rings on a 6-pack of beer.

Scientifically speaking.

There's beer in space? Let's go.  :cheersmate:

Offline Doc

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2010, 01:35:38 PM »

One of the most alarming aspects of this discussion for me is the idea that we might be able to somehow travel through these things to another place. It's analogous to a cave man looking at a fire and deciding to jump in it to see where all that wood went to.

It's a singularity. All matter gets squashed down to sub atomic particles and jettisoned back out into normal space via it's "north" and "south" poles as x-rays.


With our corrent (quite limited) knowledge of these singularities, it is highly unlikely that we will establish interdemensional travel using them as a vehicle, or "portal", as, due to their nature, nothing that passes through them survives the enormous gravitational effect..........and so far nothing that passes into one returns to our space/time continuum to be observed........

Where the real possibility exists for interstellar/time/interdeminsional travel falls in the arena of Quantum Physics, which we are just beginning to scratch the surface of understanding.  It is theorized that by passing through the "Quantum foam" that is the residue from the initial establishment of universal matter (which exists everywhere), we should be able to emerge at any time/place/dimension, as in Quantum theory, all times, places, and dimensions exist simultaneously. At least in theory, we should be able to do this without ever leaving our own planet.........

Time,  as we perceive it is linear, however in quantum theory, time is actually sorta "spherical", and exists not as a continuum, but as an infinity of simultaneous points of reference all existing at once.

The current issue with quantum thought is that our present mathematics is woefully inadequate to construct the necessary equations to understand the effects, and similar to Einstein's work with Relativity, a new math will need to be invented in order to move forward with research in this area. Since we can actually observe the quantum principles at work, the new math will be needed to further exploit and understand what we are seeing......at present we are floundering around in the dark, as it were.......it will happen of course, but "Einstein's" don't emerge very frequently in real terms......

This will be the next great leap forward in the area of Physics.......

doc
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 01:40:37 PM by TVDOC »

Offline Aaron Burr

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2010, 03:20:00 PM »
While I respect your opinions Dr.Doc, I must reject this one. Quantum Theory is just that. Not a lot of practical applications or relevance to the real world where farting around a black hole will get you killed. Also, since it was our woefully inadequate mathematical skills that invented quantum theory in the first place, I fail to see it's inadequacies.  

I do however see parallels to the development of mathematical theories concerning the nature of our solar system. If I remember correctly many theories were advanced, all using increasingly complicated mathematical computations to understand our solar system until someone finally had the guts to point out that the Sun was the center of the solar system. That one discovery really made the math a whole lot easier regarding the celestial movements of the planets.

However, this is all speculation. Enjoyable speculation at that. It should be noted however, that quantum mechanics is most effective when applied to the sub atomic world and breaks down when it's theories are macro scaled. Unification of the mico and macro world is what the Unified Field Theory is all about.

And eventually Stephen Hawkins will come to the same conclusion as I have regarding the Unified Field Theory. The answer is 4.

Anyway. Dark Matter would be an excellent name for a beer.

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2010, 03:26:09 PM »
And eventually Stephen Hawkins will come to the same conclusion as I have regarding the Unified Field Theory. The answer is 4.

Particles might make it through a black hole to "the other side" but probably never a human vessel. Just putting what he said into plain english. I think thats what he said.

Quote
Anyway. Dark Matter would be an excellent name for a beer.

heh!

Offline Doc

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2010, 03:28:44 PM »
While I respect your opinions Dr.Doc, I must reject this one. Quantum Theory is just that. Not a lot of practical applications or relevance to the real world where farting around a black hole will get you killed. Also, since it was our woefully inadequate mathematical skills that invented quantum theory in the first place, I fail to see it's inadequacies.  


As I recall, the same was said about the origins of the universe until 1950 or so, and the previous theory was deemed valid for several centuries........

You may want to read a few papers on the state of quantum physics today, and the practical applications thereof........google "quantum computer", and you might be surprised at how close we are to a commercial application.......we know it works, we just don't know WHY it works yet..........

On edit:  Quantum Mechanics, and "Quantum Physics" are two distinctly different entities.

doc
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 03:30:40 PM by TVDOC »

Offline Aaron Burr

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2010, 03:39:57 PM »
Thank you for the correction. I misread your post. The last time I checked into the pocket protector crowd I was reading Hawkins latest work.

But yeah, science improves on itself all the time. (no pun intended.) Which is my point. In five years some grad student may come running out of the library in a panic trying to shut down CERN due to yet another theory.

Also, since you seem far more erudite in this area, and I am a confessed dilettante, could you elucidate further on this subject?