Hello.

[CG6468]

What subject? The Hello thread?

I've seen some threads drift and get hijacked, but this is ridiculous. Post a topic somewhere.

[Rebel]

And as I said, the GC requires all signatories to adhere to it no matter whom they are fighting.

Either you have a constitution, or you don't.  If you do, article VI demands compliance.  If you don't then this subject is the very least of your worries.

Then let the UN send their ***** army to enforce them.

[Doktor Howl]

I have thought about it through and through and I have absolutely no problem with it. As for using it on American citizens, it violates the US Constitution. Last I checked, we're not waterboarding US citizens but Hajis caught on the battlefield. If they are American citizens, they've essentially renounced their citizenship by proxy.

You think torture is waterboarding and, I guess, that would include PsyOps. I don't. I believe torture is shoving bamboo shoots up fingernails, ripping out fingernails, breaking femurs, shoving glass tubes up dicks and then breaking them, etc.

1.  Amendment VIII is not restricted to American citizens, as amendment II (for one example) is.  It covers anyone in American jurisdiction or custody.

2.  Torture is very clearly defined in the GC.  And, as I said, there are ways to make them sing like canaries that don't involve torture.  Interesting note:  We convicted one Japanese officer for waterboarding Americans, as a war crime.

[Doktor Howl]

Then let the UN send their ***** army to enforce them.

Why would the UN enforce article VI of our constitution?

[Doktor Howl]

What subject? The Hello thread?

I've seen some threads drift and get hijacked, but this is ridiculous. Post a topic somewhere.

People asked questions, I'm just rolling with it. 

[Rebel]

2.  Torture is very clearly defined in the GC.  And, as I said, there are ways to make them sing like canaries that don't involve torture.  Interesting note:  We convicted one Japanese officer for waterboarding Americans, as a war crime.

Really? Where does it say waterboarding?

[Rebel]

Why would the UN enforce article VI of our constitution?

There a lot of additional shit that needs to be removed from the Constitution and that's one treaty we should end. Is it doing us any good? How has the treatment of our POW's been? Oh, wait, do we still have some American POW's alive? ...oh, that's right... 

[Doktor Howl]

Really? Where does it say waterboarding?

Article 127.

Grave breachesNot all violations of the treaty are treated equally. The most serious crimes are termed grave breaches, and provide a legal definition of a war crime. Grave breaches of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions include the following acts if committed against a person protected by the convention:

willful killing, torture or inhumane treatment, including biological experiments
willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health
compelling someone to serve in the forces of a hostile power
willfully depriving someone of the right to a fair trial

As you see, it is suffering OR injury.

Now, if you have a way to get accurate information out of people, why would you bother violating a ratified treaty for information that is at best suspect?

[Doktor Howl]

There a lot of additional shit that needs to be removed from the Constitution

You know, that's really all I needed to hear.

[Rebel]

Article 127.

Grave breachesNot all violations of the treaty are treated equally. The most serious crimes are termed grave breaches, and provide a legal definition of a war crime. Grave breaches of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions include the following acts if committed against a person protected by the convention:

willful killing, torture or inhumane treatment, including biological experiments
willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health
compelling someone to serve in the forces of a hostile power
willfully depriving someone of the right to a fair trial

As you see, it is suffering OR injury.

Now, if you have a way to get accurate information out of people, why would you bother violating a ratified treaty for information that is at best suspect?

How are they injured? As for suffering, are you f'n serious? I went through more hell in PLDC at Ft. f'n Benning than they do in their little time gurgling water. Besides, if they don't like it, they can always start f'n talking.

[Doktor Howl]

How are they injured? As for suffering, are you f'n serious? I went through more hell in PLDC at Ft. f'n Benning than they do in their little time gurgling water. Besides, if they don't like it, they can always start f'n talking.

Odd.  I attended PLDC and wasn't waterboarded.

[Rebel]

You know, that's really all I needed to hear.

So, you think EVERYTHING politicians have done to this nation was for the good of the nation? You bitch about taxation, yet you seem to think there's nothing wrong with the Constitution. Also, what kind of f'n good has the 17th Amendment done, other than make senators nothing more than glorified representatives of the people, when they were not SUPPOSED to represent the people, but the states?

Perhaps you're not intelligent enough to continue the conversation.

[Rebel]

Odd.  I attended PLDC and wasn't waterboarded.

Yeah, one more thing I didn't say. You might want to start reading what's in front of you.

[Doktor Howl]

So, you think EVERYTHING politicians have done to this nation was for the good of the nation? You bitch about taxation, yet you seem to think there's nothing wrong with the Constitution. Also, what kind of f'n good has the 17th Amendment done, other than make senators nothing more than glorified representatives of the people, when they were not SUPPOSED to represent the people, but the states?

Perhaps you're not intelligent enough to continue the conversation.

*shrug*

Either you're a constitutionalist, or you're not.

[Rebel]

*shrug*

Either you're a constitutionalist, or you're not.

I'm a strict constitutionalist, as it was written. Not so much all the other bullshit that agenda-driven politicians have burdened us with in a few amendments, the U.S. Code, etc. An amendment that is so damn ambiguous that it allows policies that are in direct contradiction to the Constitution and Bill of Rights should have NEVER been entered.

[Doktor Howl]

I'm a strict constitutionalist, as it was written. Not so much all the other bullshit that agenda-driven politicians have burdened us with in a few amendments, the U.S. Code, etc.

So you're a strict constitutionalist except for articles V and VI?

[Eupher]

Article 127.

Grave breachesNot all violations of the treaty are treated equally. The most serious crimes are termed grave breaches, and provide a legal definition of a war crime. Grave breaches of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions include the following acts if committed against a person protected by the convention:

willful killing, torture or inhumane treatment, including biological experiments
willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health
compelling someone to serve in the forces of a hostile power
willfully depriving someone of the right to a fair trial

As you see, it is suffering OR injury.

Now, if you have a way to get accurate information out of people, why would you bother violating a ratified treaty for information that is at best suspect?

Well, Dok, you've clearly done your homework on the GC. Congratulations.

You've alluded to "other" methods of extracting information out of combatants without "willfully causing great suffering or serious injury". Care to go into some detail about that?

As for the U.S. Constitution and the GC and the trumpeting you're doing about adhering to the document, I'd be willing to bet, oh, say my brand new euph that not every "t" is crossed and every "i" is dotted when it comes to those pesky conventions.

After all, our Congress features a number of liars (Weiner, anyone?) and even our current president has lied through his teeth.

Strapping on the great moral compass and riding into the sunset doesn't necessarily win friends and endear ourselves to the bad guys.

Besides, who says waterboarding "causes great suffering or serious injury"? Besides yourself, of course.

It looks to me like hadji's getting a sorely-needed bath.

Just sayin'.....

[Rebel]

So you're a strict constitutionalist except for articles V and VI?

I didn't say I didn't support V and VI, I said I didn't support Geneva Conventions when it pertained to non-signatories and I inferred that we should have never entered into a treaty with those stipulations.

[Evil_Conservative]

Nice to meet you, too.

I won't be invoicing you for the sarcasm.

That's a shame.

[Doktor Howl]

You've alluded to "other" methods of extracting information out of combatants without "willfully causing great suffering or serious injury". Care to go into some detail about that?

Sure.  One method is to put them in a room with no windows.  You give them enough food, but at random intervals.  You give them enough sleep, but also at random times.  Within a few days, the part of the brain that marks time basically stops functioning, as they have no frame of reference...It's a form of sensory deprivation that causes no discomfort or injury, and impairs their judgement, and they sing like canaries.  The Germans and the Russians used this to great effect, starting in the early 40s.  Thing is, as soon as they gain a point of reference (a clock, a window through which they can see the sun, etc), they revert to normal.

Also, the regular old Reid Technique used by police usually works, especially when conducted for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Also, you try them as unlawful combatants, and you have a firing squad to use as leverage (The GC and American law allow for executing illegal combatants).  It's amazing how many wannabe holy warriors have a change of heart when they actually have to look at the blindfold.  This, also, is perfectly legal.

And if they don't sing?  Find a suitable backstop, a blindfold, and a cigarette, and let the other illegal combatants watch the show.  Someone will talk.

Strapping on the great moral compass and riding into the sunset doesn't necessarily win friends and endear ourselves to the bad guys.

I don't give a shit what the bad guys think.  I am concerned with the ethics of America, and nobody else.

[Doktor Howl]

I didn't say I didn't support V and VI, I said I didn't support Geneva Conventions when it pertained to non-signatories and I inferred that we should have never entered into a treaty with those stipulations.

Well, the GC has clear provisions for fighting irregular forces such as the Taliban or Al Qaida, and we ratified it.  That means we have to follow it, or chuck article VI of the constitution.

And if you don't want amendments, you kind of have to eliminate article V.

[Eupher]

Sure.  One method is to put them in a room with no windows.  You give them enough food, but at random intervals.  You give them enough sleep, but also at random times.  Within a few days, the part of the brain that marks time basically stops functioning, as they have no frame of reference...It's a form of sensory deprivation that causes no discomfort or injury, and impairs their judgement, and they sing like canaries.  The Germans and the Russians used this to great effect, starting in the early 40s.  Thing is, as soon as they gain a point of reference (a clock, a window through which they can see the sun, etc), they revert to normal.

Also, the regular old Reid Technique used by police usually works, especially when conducted for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Also, you try them as unlawful combatants, and you have a firing squad to use as leverage (The GC and American law allow for executing illegal combatants).  It's amazing how many wannabe holy warriors have a change of heart when they actually have to look at the blindfold.  This, also, is perfectly legal.

And if they don't sing?  Find a suitable backstop, a blindfold, and a cigarette, and let the other illegal combatants watch the show.  Someone will talk.

I don't give a shit what the bad guys think.  I am concerned with the ethics of America, and nobody else.

Who's to say that what you're espousing - this sensory deprivation - doesn't cause great suffering? Who defines this type of treatment and calls it legit? Is that laid out in the GC?

Who's to say that waterboarding isn't just another way to get a bath?

Personally I don't give a flying **** how they get the information. Just as long as they get it. If they can get the information by having 72 virgins give the guy 72 blowjobs, I'm okay with that -- as long as we can take the filthy bastard out back and blow the back of his head off.

[Doktor Howl]

Who's to say that what you're espousing - this sensory deprivation - doesn't cause great suffering? Who defines this type of treatment and calls it legit? Is that laid out in the GC?

It certainly is.  There is no physiological cause of pain, and no reported discomfort of any kind.  This has been studied to death by psychologists all over the world.  It doesn't even carry the hallucinations caused by full sensory deprivation.  It just makes you kinda dumb and willing to talk.

And it works like clockwork.

So why bother setting precedent for torture, no matter how you dress it up?

[Rebel]

Well, the GC has clear provisions for fighting irregular forces such as the Taliban or Al Qaida, and we ratified it.  That means we have to follow it, or chuck article VI of the constitution.

And if you don't want amendments, you kind of have to eliminate article V.

Damn you aren't very apprehensive. Now, please show me where I said I didn't want amendments.

[Doktor Howl]

Damn you aren't very apprehensive.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Now, please show me where I said I didn't want amendments.

Okay.

I'm a strict constitutionalist, as it was written. Not so much all the other bullshit that agenda-driven politicians have burdened us with in a few amendments, the U.S. Code, etc.