Just what most of us thought

[rubliw]

You could no more know Justice than you could know Injustice.

BOTH would require omniscience.

However, IF there was a God and he did create us then obviously we have a "sense" justice.

Would something as clever as a Creator of all Time and Space give us a sense of justice and then set about violating it?

Well, the big problem with any skeptical theist response is that once invoked, one's ability to make any sort of claim about God's reasons for action are undermined. On skeptical theism, God might have a good reason to violate our sense of justice.  We simply cannot say, since our own faculties are so limited and our knowledge is so small.  Heck, it may even be his moral obligation, in some instance, to violate our sense of justice, if some better or greater state of affairs is realized because of it.  So it would appear that we can't actually say that God wouldn't set about violating our sense of justice, on skeptical theism.  

The link touches a little on this in its "objections" section.

The same thing can occur with any other issue, like the problem of evil, or suffering, etc.  

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

...since our own faculties are so limited and our knowledge is so small...

Why even rely on that?

Take into consideration that humans are lying, petty, violent, ego-obsessed herd animals and humanity's inability completely and accurately discern or apply Justice is a natural consequence.

[vesta111]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that any being that could create a human soul could probably have wherewithall to determine if a motive was sincere and self-serving.

I doubt Heaven is populated by crooks, liars and thugs that smiled at God and said, "No, really!" and then giggle behind His back.

It is said that at one time Gods crew did in fact revolt and create a mutiny in the heavens. There was a mighty war in the heavens at some time and the mutineers were cast out to find a safe place--Hell-- and allowed to carry on their evil deeds on mankind.

What was up for grabs  between God and Satan are the souls of humans on this Planet and perhaps thousands of other planets with some kind of life form.

It is also written that God and Satan have some kind of relationship together as in the story of Job where he was used by both God and Satan to force this poor man to choose between them.

God allowed Satan to annihilate his family and cause great harm to befall his servant through Satan.

All this on a bet from Satan, nothing is said about the deaths of his family who were also his servants, they were pawns to be discarded.

Interesting story in the Bible, just one of many I wonder about.

[ExGeeEye]

Job is one of my favorite books.  I wonder whether you have actually read it, or just been told about what's in it.  I suggest finding a readable modern English text (NIV or ESV, for example-- both are available on line) and just reading it.

(This is going to be very long, and will touch just a few points of this wonderful book.  Sorry.)

Historically speaking, it took place sometime between the Flood and the departure of Abram (later: Abraham) from Ur.  This is interesting to me as an amateur "student of history", but not really relevant.

What is relevant is that it explores "why bad things happen to good people" (thousands of years before whatsisname wrote his book).  It starts out by telling us why, which would be called today a "spoiler".  It climaxes with the very Words of God spoken to Job (what a privilege, even under those circumstances!).

One of the problems people have with Job is one of focus.  We humans tend to focus on this life; 70 years, 100 if we're lucky, 30 if not, and anything less than that a terrible tragedy, even if by natural causes.  We want to see justice done, and injustice undone, within our lifetimes (or at least within the lifetimes of those directly involved.  We cheer when Dillinger is shot down on the street, or when Saddam Hussein hangs.  We grump at the fact that Josef Mengele seems to have lived to a happy old age and drowned while on holiday instead of being shot or hanged or both and stuffed into one of his own ovens.

Our lens is out of focus.  It should be focused on eternity.

Dillinger is likely in hell.  Saddam Hussein is likely in hell.  Mengele is likely in hell.  If this is true, then they are going to remain there for eternity.  There is no getting out.  A thousand years from now their punishment will be just beginning.  Five billion years, and they will be no nearer the end of it than they are now-- because there is no end.

And here's the kicker: there is not one of us who has not sinned.  You cannot name one person who hasn't (unless you know a just-born infant).  St. Paul, who wrote much of the new testament, mostly under the direct inspiration of God, called himself the chief of sinners, and wrote that "everyone has sinned, and falls short of the Glory of God".  We are as guilty as Dillinger, Saddam, and Mengele (guilty of different things, I'm sure!)

I deserve to be in Hell right now, and forever.  Nothing personal, but I believe you do, too.  And so did Paul (deserve Hell, I mean).

OK, back to Job.  His grown children were killed by Satan (by means of a structural failure of the house they were in), with God's permission.  "On a bet with Satan", I think you said.  Some bet.  God is omniscient.  He knows how the dice will fall before they are made, let alone thrown.  He knew what would happen before Satan even brought it up. And He knew you and I would be talking about it, thousands of years later!

Job is described as a Godly man, who acted as priest for his family.  I think it likely he raised Godly children who, at death, were taken to God for eternity.  Do you suppose that any of them, five seconds after they died, wished they hadn't?  I think not.  They arrived in Heaven's Glory, where they remain today.  They've been there at least three thousand years, and their reward is just beginning.  A thousand years from now their reward will still be just beginning.  Five billion years, and they will be no nearer the end of it than they are now-- because there is no end. praise God!

The middle part of Job describes his friends sitting around trying to figure out why these things happened to Job.  Mostly they seem to think he must have committed some great sin, even unwittingly, and until he repents, there's nothing for it.

And then we get to chapter 38.  God Himself speaks!

"Brace yourself!  I will ask you some questions, and you shall answer!"  The questions basically boil down to "I created this.  Can you?" It goes on through chapter 39, and gets to-- probably my favorite part of the Old Testament.

God says (paraphrasing) "Do you argue with Me?  Will you tell Me I am wrong, and tell Me how I should do?"

Job answers (finally!) "I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?  I put my hand over my mouth."

God again: "Brace yourself!  I will ask you some questions, and you shall answer!"  I love that!  He goes on:

"Would you discredit my justice?  Would you condemn me to justify yourself? "

...

We dare not do so, if we know Who we're dealing with.  Job gets it:

"I know that you can do all things;  no purpose of yours can be thwarted...I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.  My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.  Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.”

And when all was said and done, God rewarded Job's faithfulness, both in life and in eternity. 

Long as this is, it still dissatisfies me as to completeness.  May the Lord add His guidance to my words for your benefit.  Amen.

If you desire anything further, you know where to find me.  Be well.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Because the the 14th, 29th, etc posts never get read.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Soldiers haunted by scenes of war and victims scarred by violence may wish they could wipe the memories from their minds. Researchers at the Johns Hopkins University say that may someday be possible.

A commercial drug remains far off — and its use would be subject to many ethical and practical questions. But scientists have laid a foundation with their discovery that proteins can be removed from the brain's fear center to erase memories forever.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-erasing-memories-20101122,0,342650.story

What if Job, or any other victim, could have their memories erased? Would that in anyway diminish the evil they had previously endured?

I don't think so.

What if, instead of only erasing the memory of a rape victim they could also target the mind of the rapist and make him forget the motivators that lead him to perpetrate such acts of violence? Would that suddenly make him a good person?

Again, I don't think so. It make make him different. It make make him harmless. It might even make him pleasant.

But it would also mean he had no more moral quality than a light switch.

Job is not memorialized for enduring in spite of his suffering but because of it. Remove the suffering and the story collapses.

Now, I reject dualism. I do not believe evil (assuming it exists) is a necessary half of the same moral coin. You need not see a child murdered to know the joy of a child born. The pain of seeing a murder is not separate from the love; it could never exist if the love did not precede it. Evil cannot exist on its own it requires a basic good that it must deny or corrupt.

But in the story of Job we see much evil befalling Job. It latches on to his goodness and preys upon it and despoils it. It twists goodness into a mockery of all that creation was meant to be ("Curse God and die!).

And yet...

Just when evil seems triumphant. As if it seems to have buried goodness, a newer, fresher goodness sprang from that soil like a seed from an orchard scorched by some faceless marauder blooms after the marauder has moved on and the soil is now rich with nutrients sees the new trees bursting with fruit.

Evil cannot live without without goodness and every time it tries to destroy goodness some yet higher good emerges above it.


NOTE: Most scholars agree the story of Job is only fiction. No one should take offense at this. Far from diminishing the power of the Bible I say it speaks volumes of their philosophical depth. Like those cave paintings in France I am so enamored with, I believe it demonstrates I power of the ancients modern man ignores from his own arrogance and ignorance. It is far more beautiful and intricate a piece of art than any of the crap literature dribbling off the printing presses today.

[rubliw]

Why even rely on that?

Take into consideration that humans are lying, petty, violent, ego-obsessed herd animals and humanity's inability completely and accurately discern or apply Justice is a natural consequence.

Well, what else is there to rely on, other than our own faculties?  Divine inspiration?  It must be similarly analyzed and interpreted through the same cognitive faculties with which we think about justice, suffering, etc.

[Carl]

Well, what else is there to rely on, other than our own faculties?  Divine inspiration?  It must be similarly analyzed and interpreted through the same cognitive faculties with which we think about justice, suffering, etc.

Why?

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Well, what else is there to rely on, other than our own faculties?  Divine inspiration?  It must be similarly analyzed and interpreted through the same cognitive faculties with which we think about justice, suffering, etc.

If the Bible is a human invention then interpretation is meaningless as the authoring, or rather, because of it.

If the Bible is true it teaches men to pray, "Thy will be done." In other words it moves man away from his own mind (if the man be willing).

[rubliw]

If the Bible is a human invention then interpretation is meaningless as the authoring, or rather, because of it.

Yes, I agree.

If the Bible is true it teaches men to pray, "Thy will be done." In other words it moves man away from his own mind (if the man be willing

Perhaps it is true, that God Himself acts as the instrument which facilities a person's genuine understanding of His revelation.  However, there still is a problem here, because there is simply so much much false revelation and genuine misunderstanding of revelation in the world.  In reality, sincere people who genuinely desire to know and understand God's revelation often end up in wildly contradictory and incompatible places.

Unless one is prepared to assert that others must submit to his own personal experience and understanding of revelation, because it simply must be superior to all other's in its accuracy and truth (because he says so), then we *must* reconcile or reject differing accounts of revelation using our very own biased and flawed cognitive faculties.  Reason, logic, intuition, etc.

[rubliw]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-erasing-memories-20101122,0,342650.story

What if Job, or any other victim, could have their memories erased? Would that in anyway diminish the evil they had previously endured?

I don't think so.

What if, instead of only erasing the memory of a rape victim they could also target the mind of the rapist and make him forget the motivators that lead him to perpetrate such acts of violence? Would that suddenly make him a good person?

Again, I don't think so. It make make him different. It make make him harmless. It might even make him pleasant.

But it would also mean he had no more moral quality than a light switch.

Meant to reply to this sooner...

What do you think makes one more 'moral' than a lightswitch?

We use all kinds of tools that don't seem all that different, in principle, to some pharmacological behavior modification.  Social pressures are one such tool.  We condemn or praise people based on their behaviors.  Laws are another.  We use punishment to deter harmful actions, using jail time, fines, spanking, etc.

Do you consider people who moderate their behaviors in response to such pressures as amoral (ie, as moral as a lightswitch)?

Most people do good for the some of the same sorts of reasons.  We also use social pressures to inspire good acts by delivering praise and/or rewards.  More often than not, ask a person how it feels to do good things for others, and they will tell you that it feels great.  They get visceral pleasure from acts of kindness.  

So again, do you consider people reacting to such pressures and desires as moral agents or as lightswitches?

[Splashdown]

ExGeeEye wrote some great things. I can add very little. Let me add the New Testament.

Heh. "Just universe."

Where is that promised? Look at what we did to the Son of God. If God the Father allows his only Son--sinless, guiltless--to be put to the test, then put to a horrible, painful, excrutiating death, what right do we have of expecting justice or fairness in this lifetime?

Divine Justice.

None of us can truly know the will of God. Who are we to say goes to Heaven or Hell? Not in our job description. "Judge not" and all that. Or "Vengeance is Mine." We give to God these anthropomorphic attributes. We look at a span of a hundred, a thousand, or a hundred thousand years as a long time. ExGeeEye said our lens is out of focus. I don't think we're capaple of focusing that far out.

[rubliw]

ExGeeEye wrote some great things. I can add very little. Let me add the New Testament.

Heh. "Just universe."

Where is that promised? Look at what we did to the Son of God. If God the Father allows his only Son--sinless, guiltless--to be put to the test, then put to a horrible, painful, excrutiating death, what right do we have of expecting justice or fairness in this lifetime?

I clarified later that "just universe" did not mean we will receive justice in this lifetime.  When the universe has served its purpose, and we've all been judged, perfect justice will have been served, allegedly.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Meant to reply to this sooner...

What do you think makes one more 'moral' than a lightswitch?

We use all kinds of tools that don't seem all that different, in principle, to some pharmacological behavior modification.  Social pressures are one such tool.  We condemn or praise people based on their behaviors.  Laws are another.  We use punishment to deter harmful actions, using jail time, fines, spanking, etc.

Do you consider people who moderate their behaviors in response to such pressures as amoral (ie, as moral as a lightswitch)?

Most people do good for the some of the same sorts of reasons.  We also use social pressures to inspire good acts by delivering praise and/or rewards.  More often than not, ask a person how it feels to do good things for others, and they will tell you that it feels great.  They get visceral pleasure from acts of kindness.  

So again, do you consider people reacting to such pressures and desires as moral agents or as lightswitches?

Some guy once said, "You have been told 'thou shall not commit adultery' but I say to you, whoever looks upon a woman and lusts after her in his heart commits adultery with her already in his heart. And whoever hates his brother in his heart is already guilty of murder."

You gotta admit, the dude had a point.

If the only thing holding your murderous rage in check is fear of incarceration then you aren't a moral person, you're just a *****. I suppose it can be argued that being a ***** is definitely different from being a light switch.

The flip side of that is love. Love, to have any true meaning, would require an act of will. "If you only love those that love you then you already have your reward."

It's easy to feel fondly for those who have already done you good but try loving the guy that keeps going into the office fridge and eating your peanut butter and tuna sandwiches.

Zotting out someone's memory won't cure an evil perpetrated upon them or by them, it just zotted out the memory. It will do nothing to replace the missing sandwhiches.

[rubliw]

Some guy once said, "You have been told 'thou shall not commit adultery' but I say to you, whoever looks upon a woman and lusts after her in his heart commits adultery with her already in his heart. And whoever hates his brother in his heart is already guilty of murder."

You gotta admit, the dude had a point.

If the only thing holding your murderous rage in check is fear of incarceration then you aren't a moral person, you're just a *****. I suppose it can be argued that being a ***** is definitely different from being a light switch.

The flip side of that is love. Love, to have any true meaning, would require an act of will. "If you only love those that love you then you already have your reward."

It's easy to feel fondly for those who have already done you good but try loving the guy that keeps going into the office fridge and eating your peanut butter and tuna sandwiches.

Zotting out someone's memory won't cure an evil perpetrated upon them or by them, it just zotted out the memory. It will do nothing to replace the missing sandwhiches.

I think I read your example about the rapist with a little more than wiping out memories in mind.  I agree that wiping out memories would be inadequate to change a rapists nature, or his desire to rape.  But when you said "motivators", I considered that to roughly mean "desires".  So I took it that you were suggesting the possibility of removing a rapists 'desire' to rape using a pharmacological solution.  That was the context in which my questions were framed. 

All the tools I mentioned are basically meant to hack our desires, to change them, to reorient them towards something better.  They give us something good to desire more (hopefully) than our evil desires. The hypothetical pharmacological solution you mentioned, as I understood it, seemed to do something similar - I was just wondering if and what you saw as the major distinction between the two.

As for me, maybe I could cure most of my evil desires with some dedicated meditation and some changes of habits - but what if there were a pill or a procedure that did the same thing?  Would I remain a moral agent with the former, but not the latter?

And I do agree that its much better to have desires oriented to the good, rather than to have desires oriented to the evil, that one simply resists (at least for one's own personal satisfaction).

[nogod]

Just a thought here...  if god is Omnipotent and perfect, then whatever god did would be perfect. There can be no exceptions, either god is perfect or god is not.

With that in mind lets look at the conundrum.

If a man who was a devout xtain the majority of his life, then gave is soul to satan, would he go to hell? The answer almost seems too easy. Certainly a servant of hell would find himself in hell upon entering a afterlife. Really?

When a child, a good honest child gets in with the wrong group of children do we shun the child or try to help the child? If a child becomes wrought with sin do we turn our backs on him? The moral thing to do would be to help the child.
It would seem that god doesnt agree with that moral stance at all.

It is written that god died for everyone's sins. Cool! It doesnt take much to figure out the loophole. I will lead a life of sin then at some point late in my life Ill just pray to jesus for forgiveness. Boom Im off to heaven!

And BTW jesus'es dying for our sins act also forgives the sins of a murderers and pedophiles. So yes god would welcome charles manson and cast a non believing human into fire for the simple act of not believing that jesus died on a cross for our sins. Which at face value shows that god and jesus are not very moral god(s). Actually it makes em rather petty. The bible says in short: Believe jesus is god or burn in hell for eternity, oops wait not really eternity, just untill the second coming when god destroys satan and hell and all of his followers. Look there it is a imperfection! I think the many mistakes in the bible is proof enough that god did not write it.

But lets ignore that tiny problem. Lets move on to the bigger problem. Religion!

Yes i said religion. Obviously I am what many would consider a Atheist. Hold on put your nooses down! I dont usually call myself a Atheist. Its true that I dont believe in god(s), jesus, the whole shebang whether xtain, muslim or hindu or any of that new age paranormal crap or afterlifes and all those other nutty endeavors men like to undertake. But my non-belief in something should not label me as evil. After all it is the bible that uses the word 'evil'. I dont believe that evil exists. So no I am not a satanic devil worshiper. I do not believe in demons or witches either. Sorry I got side tracked. Ill continue. It is written in the bible that religions are bad. Yet there are many xtian religions, which I find bazaar. I guess gods word isnt perfect? I mean shouldnt all xtians not be in religions then?

[ExGeeEye]

A few short replies:

It is written that god died for everyone's sins. Cool! It doesnt take much to figure out the loophole. I will lead a life of sin then at some point late in my life Ill just pray to jesus for forgiveness. Boom Im off to heaven!

God replies to the man planning to live life his own way for years to come:  "You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you." (Luke 12:20)  We do not know when the end will come, and it is foolishness to plan for eternity based on the expectation of living to 70 or 80 when every day's news tells of apparently healthy people dropping dead in their tracks, never mind road accidents, wars etc.

And BTW jesus'es dying for our sins act also forgives the sins of a murderers and pedophiles. So yes god would welcome charles manson and cast a non believing human into fire for the simple act of not believing that jesus died on a cross for our sins.

Sin is sin, whether murder, or hate which leads to murder; sexual sins like adultery or pedophilia, or the lust which can lead to it; Perfect Justice demands that all who sin deserve to go to Hell, and there is only One Person who never sinned; that being Jesus, who has paid the price for sin, the only cost to us being that we must surrender our pride and accept His grace. 

He has given us free will, as well.  We have the option to reject His grace.  We can even call Him nasty names and neglect to capitalize His Name, something we wouldn't do to a fellow human.  By doing so, we accept full responsibility for our sins.  Those who do so will receive Perfect Justice.

Which at face value shows that god and jesus are not very moral god(s). Actually it makes em rather petty. The bible says in short: Believe jesus is god or burn in hell for eternity, oops wait not really eternity, just untill the second coming when god destroys satan and hell and all of his followers.

That last bit is incorrect.  Satan, Death, and Hell will be cast into "the lake of fire" (I believe this to be a literal place) for eternity, not annihilated.

But lets ignore that tiny problem. Lets move on to the bigger problem. Religion!

God has a problem with "religion" as well.  He has this to say about people who live all week like the Devil himself, and show up once a week to "worship" and expect God will be OK with that:

"Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things? Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD."  (Jeremiah 7:9-11)

He also has something to say about real religion, and it has nothing to do with denominations, or liturgy, clergy, ecclesiastical offices, offering plates, none of it.  Here are His words, though the pen of Jesus' half-brother James:

"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

"Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." (James 1:22-27) (Emphases added)

Salvation by Grace, and a solid effort to live morally afterward, and to care for those in real need.  That's it.  I live in the hope that that is my religion as well.  All else is a human invention, which has its uses, but must not be mistaken for true religion as defined; as in Jeremiah, you can attend all the rituals you like and be as lost as possible.

I dont believe that evil exists.

Yet you referenced Manson, other murderers, and pedophiles.  Are these not evil to you?

May the Lord lend His power to these few word of mine.

[Splashdown]

Just a thought here...  if god is Omnipotent and perfect, then whatever god did would be perfect. There can be no exceptions, either god is perfect or god is not.

With that in mind lets look at the conundrum.

If a man who was a devout xtain the majority of his life, then gave is soul to satan, would he go to hell? The answer almost seems too easy. Certainly a servant of hell would find himself in hell upon entering a afterlife. Really?

When a child, a good honest child gets in with the wrong group of children do we shun the child or try to help the child? If a child becomes wrought with sin do we turn our backs on him? The moral thing to do would be to help the child.
It would seem that god doesnt agree with that moral stance at all.

It is written that god died for everyone's sins. Cool! It doesnt take much to figure out the loophole. I will lead a life of sin then at some point late in my life Ill just pray to jesus for forgiveness. Boom Im off to heaven!

And BTW jesus'es dying for our sins act also forgives the sins of a murderers and pedophiles. So yes god would welcome charles manson and cast a non believing human into fire for the simple act of not believing that jesus died on a cross for our sins. Which at face value shows that god and jesus are not very moral god(s). Actually it makes em rather petty. The bible says in short: Believe jesus is god or burn in hell for eternity, oops wait not really eternity, just untill the second coming when god destroys satan and hell and all of his followers. Look there it is a imperfection! I think the many mistakes in the bible is proof enough that god did not write it.

But lets ignore that tiny problem. Lets move on to the bigger problem. Religion!

Yes i said religion. Obviously I am what many would consider a Atheist. Hold on put your nooses down! I dont usually call myself a Atheist. Its true that I dont believe in god(s), jesus, the whole shebang whether xtain, muslim or hindu or any of that new age paranormal crap or afterlifes and all those other nutty endeavors men like to undertake. But my non-belief in something should not label me as evil. After all it is the bible that uses the word 'evil'. I dont believe that evil exists. So no I am not a satanic devil worshiper. I do not believe in demons or witches either. Sorry I got side tracked. Ill continue. It is written in the bible that religions are bad. Yet there are many xtian religions, which I find bazaar. I guess gods word isnt perfect? I mean shouldnt all xtians not be in religions then?

Just a thought. Something I've always wondered. Why do you care? Athiests don't believe in God. I get it. Awesome. Why is it so important to you to work so hard to disprove God's existence? Are you trying to prove your point to me or yourself?

[Carl]

Just a thought here...  if god is Omnipotent and perfect, then whatever god did would be perfect. There can be no exceptions, either god is perfect or god is not.

With that in mind lets look at the conundrum.

If a man who was a devout xtain the majority of his life, then gave is soul to satan, would he go to hell? The answer almost seems too easy. Certainly a servant of hell would find himself in hell upon entering a afterlife. Really?

When a child, a good honest child gets in with the wrong group of children do we shun the child or try to help the child? If a child becomes wrought with sin do we turn our backs on him? The moral thing to do would be to help the child.
It would seem that god doesnt agree with that moral stance at all.

It is written that god died for everyone's sins. Cool! It doesnt take much to figure out the loophole. I will lead a life of sin then at some point late in my life Ill just pray to jesus for forgiveness. Boom Im off to heaven!

And BTW jesus'es dying for our sins act also forgives the sins of a murderers and pedophiles. So yes god would welcome charles manson and cast a non believing human into fire for the simple act of not believing that jesus died on a cross for our sins. Which at face value shows that god and jesus are not very moral god(s). Actually it makes em rather petty. The bible says in short: Believe jesus is god or burn in hell for eternity, oops wait not really eternity, just untill the second coming when god destroys satan and hell and all of his followers. Look there it is a imperfection! I think the many mistakes in the bible is proof enough that god did not write it.

But lets ignore that tiny problem. Lets move on to the bigger problem. Religion!

Yes i said religion. Obviously I am what many would consider a Atheist. Hold on put your nooses down! I dont usually call myself a Atheist. Its true that I dont believe in god(s), jesus, the whole shebang whether xtain, muslim or hindu or any of that new age paranormal crap or afterlifes and all those other nutty endeavors men like to undertake. But my non-belief in something should not label me as evil. After all it is the bible that uses the word 'evil'. I dont believe that evil exists. So no I am not a satanic devil worshiper. I do not believe in demons or witches either. Sorry I got side tracked. Ill continue. It is written in the bible that religions are bad. Yet there are many xtian religions, which I find bazaar. I guess gods word isnt perfect? I mean shouldnt all xtians not be in religions then?

If you had read any of the thread you would have seen all your "questions" already addressed and answered.
Given that and your obvious desire to mock and ridicule those that don`t believe as you do one quickly arrives at the point of not considering you worth the time.

[vesta111]

If you had read any of the thread you would have seen all your "questions" already addressed and answered.
Given that and your obvious desire to mock and ridicule those that don`t believe as you do one quickly arrives at the point of not considering you worth the time.

Carl , at this time of the year for many years I have wondered how on Xmas Eve Christians could go to church and worship the King of the Jews as the smell of crematoriums spewed its noxious gas's as the humans were burned, shot rounded up to die because they believed and were raised as Jesus was.

Jesus is God they cry out, then procede to attempt to distroy the people who believe in God. 

The Holocaust was 80% Jews and the rest were communists or Gypsies, Jehovah Witnesses and the Gays.

At this season of Christmass I would like to present to you a story of Christian good will towards all man kind.



http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/survivor/index.html

[nogod]

A few short replies:

God replies to the man planning to live life his own way for years to come:  "You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you." (Luke 12:20)  We do not know when the end will come, and it is foolishness to plan for eternity based on the expectation of living to 70 or 80 when every day's news tells of apparently healthy people dropping dead in their tracks, never mind road accidents, wars etc.

Sin is sin, whether murder, or hate which leads to murder; sexual sins like adultery or pedophilia, or the lust which can lead to it; Perfect Justice demands that all who sin deserve to go to Hell, and there is only One Person who never sinned; that being Jesus, who has paid the price for sin, the only cost to us being that we must surrender our pride and accept His grace. 

He has given us free will, as well.  We have the option to reject His grace.  We can even call Him nasty names and neglect to capitalize His Name, something we wouldn't do to a fellow human.  By doing so, we accept full responsibility for our sins.  Those who do so will receive Perfect Justice.



That last bit is incorrect.  Satan, Death, and Hell will be cast into "the lake of fire" (I believe this to be a literal place) for eternity, not annihilated.


God has a problem with "religion" as well.  He has this to say about people who live all week like the Devil himself, and show up once a week to "worship" and expect God will be OK with that:

"Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things? Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD."  (Jeremiah 7:9-11)

He also has something to say about real religion, and it has nothing to do with denominations, or liturgy, clergy, ecclesiastical offices, offering plates, none of it.  Here are His words, though the pen of Jesus' half-brother James:

"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

"Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." (James 1:22-27) (Emphases added)

Salvation by Grace, and a solid effort to live morally afterward, and to care for those in real need.  That's it.  I live in the hope that that is my religion as well.  All else is a human invention, which has its uses, but must not be mistaken for true religion as defined; as in Jeremiah, you can attend all the rituals you like and be as lost as possible.

Yet you referenced Manson, other murderers, and pedophiles.  Are these not evil to you?

May the Lord lend His power to these few word of mine.

Thank you for your kind words.

Evil is a concept put forth by the bible and numerous other belief systems. Yes a human being has freewill, the choice to act like a idiot or worse. But it was his choice to be idiotic, nobody controlled his thoughts (excluding narcosis which in reality voices in their heads come from their own heads) . Which means that it was freewill that led those who do such heinous acts like rape, murder etc.

Evil does have more then just religious meaning. So I guess if one means morally wrong or bad; immoral when using the word, then its just another way of expressing that point. So in that context I can how my assertion that there is no evil is mistaken.

[nogod]

If you had read any of the thread you would have seen all your "questions" already addressed and answered.
Given that and your obvious desire to mock and ridicule those that don`t believe as you do one quickly arrives at the point of not considering you worth the time.

Am I? Let me point out since no one knows me yet. I completely support others belief systems if they do not discriminate against, or otherwise harm other humans.

And maybe I was satisfied with the previous answers?

[nogod]

Just a thought. Something I've always wondered. Why do you care? Athiests don't believe in God. I get it. Awesome. Why is it so important to you to work so hard to disprove God's existence? Are you trying to prove your point to me or yourself?

I am not working hard as you put it to disprove god(s). My personal beliefs do not need acceptance from anyone.

You ask why do I care? Interesting question. Since you broadly have put me into a social category rather then address me as a individual. Let me point out that I am not a Socialist nor a liberal. Im pointing this out for the fact that I  wish to avoid all the cookie cutter arguments that would imply that I was.

[ExGeeEye]

Dear Unbelieving Friends,

I have endeavored to answer all questions, and it is enough.

I read my Bible and believe it to be the Word of God.  Following its advice has never put me wrong.

Two pieces of advice found in it apply to me in this situation; they are found in Proverbs 26:4 and Matthew 7:6.

May you find the answers before you find yourselves in eternity.

[Doc]

I am not working hard as you put it to disprove god(s). My personal beliefs do not need acceptance from anyone.

You ask why do I care? Interesting question. Since you broadly have put me into a social category rather then address me as a individual. Let me point out that I am not a Socialist nor a liberal. I'm pointing this out for the fact that I  wish to avoid all the cookie cutter arguments that would imply that I was.

Fairly stated.......and in keeping with your statement, the question is begged.......why are you here in this forum??

I certainly have not categorized you, however with all of the other forums and topics of discussion on this board, one must wonder why a new poster (without introducing him/her self in the :Welcomes and Introductions" forum) decided to resurrect a couple of old, dead threads in the "Religion" area, if your intention is not provocative, particularly in light of your choice of usernames??

Inquiring minds wish to know......and welcome to CC.

doc